Triangulated four bar rear suspension

[Bucketman]

I'm thinking of using a triangulated four bar radius rod set-up on a 23 T-bucket. Anybody have any experience with, or ideas about, I would like to hear them. Speedway has a triangulated system on their T-bucket frame, but doesn't offer it to the public, unless you buy their frame kit. Can I modify a 32 triangulated suspension to work on my 23 T-bucket?

 

[baddawgcustoms]

I'm thinking of using a triangulated four bar radius rod set-up on a 23 T-bucket. Anybody have any experience with, or ideas about, I would like to hear them. Speedway has a triangulated system on their T-bucket frame, but doesn't offer it to the public, unless you buy their frame kit. Can I modify a 32 triangulated suspension to work on my 23 T-bucket?

Honestly at the price I have seen for the 32 setup you could build your own easier and cheaper. The 32 frame is wider than most bucket frames. I would suggest you call Ron at RPM (site sponsor). He built my diff brackets for mine, and he has a 4 link setup he builds for the T, but is not triangulated. With that said, a "wishbone" locater in place of a panhard is pretty easy to engineer, and is much better than a panhard or a triangulated setup in my opinion. One of the moderators of this site "exjunk" has a wishbone locator with a 4 link and maybe he will chime in with some photos of it. According to how far behind the body your axle will be, 4 link bars can get pretty short on a T. I'm building mine now and eye to eye they are only 10", but my diff is very close to the body.

 

[EX JUNK]

Honestly at the price I have seen for the 32 setup you could build your own easier and cheaper. The 32 frame is wider than most bucket frames. I would suggest you call Ron at RPM (site sponsor). He built my diff brackets for mine, and he has a 4 link setup he builds for the T, but is not triangulated. With that said, a "wishbone" locater in place of a panhard is pretty easy to engineer, and is much better than a panhard or a triangulated setup in my opinion. One of the moderators of this site "exjunk" has a wishbone locator with a 4 link and maybe he will chime in with some photos of it. According to how far behind the body your axle will be, 4 link bars can get pretty short on a T. I'm building mine now and eye to eye they are only 10", but my diff is very close to the body.

I think that these pictures will show what baddawgcustoms was talking about.





Jim

 

[baddawgcustoms]

Yup that's the ones. Not trying to discourage the triangulated bars if that's what you like, but this setup just works better in my opinion. And easier to build. straight bars have all the "push" in a straight line so it's stronger, and the wishbone is down low out of the way unlike a panhard. Hope this gives you some ideas, and good luck with the build.

 

[Zandoz]

It's not more than plans right now, but I'm going to use the triangulated 4-link configuration directly from Fox body Mustangs and Thunderbirds, but with aftermarket adjustable control arms and coil-overs instead of the separate springs and shocks.

 

[fluidfloyd]

Yup that's the ones. Not trying to discourage the triangulated bars if that's what you like, but this setup just works better in my opinion. And easier to build. straight bars have all the "push" in a straight line so it's stronger, and the wishbone is down low out of the way unlike a panhard. Hope this gives you some ideas, and good luck with the build.

Dale,

Actually only the lower bar are in compression or pushing while the uppers are in tension as the pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear. If you will look under the pro stock or pro mod cars that run true 4 link systems you will see large diameter tubes both top and bottom. Back in the day many a car was running 1 1/8" OD tubes and they would bow the lower tubes on acceleration causing torque steer. Back in the pits they would look for the cause and couldn't find anything wrong. Eventually as they increased that starting line torque they permanently bent the lower tubes causing serious steering problems. I can name a number of cars that turned into the wall because of this problem. I was building almost every sheet metal fabricated 9" Ford rear end housing in use and I saw it all. Once the OEM Ford housings had been good enough but finally the power levels exceeded the axle tubes torsional limits and the car took to toque steering. As long as the limits did not exceed the yield strength of either the axle tube or the column strength limit of the lower 4 link tube the bending or twisting was not permanent. That made it hard to find the cause but once it did exceed those limits then something bent stayed bent. Being as the axle tubes in a Ford housing are a lower yield material to ease the stamping process it was usually the first thing to give up. When I introduced the first of the specially fabricated the sheet metal housing for Ricky Smiths Pro Stock Thunderbird built by Jerry Bickel people started realizing what the problems were. Now that they had a physically strong and stiff housing they started killing the lower 4 link tubes. Most every car builder was already running 1 1/4 OD tube and most other followed pretty quickly. The Pro Mods were getting 1 3/8 OD lower tubes. One of the early leaders in the car building field was Chris Alston of Chassis Works. I was building his Pro Mod housings and we talked quite often about a lot of things. He was a real early anti roll bar guy and I agreed with him as it took a lot of strain off of the housing itself. Very few other chassis builders liked that concept but it wasn't long after that that Bickel started putting them in all of his cars. There is a story about that "I saw the light" moment but that's for another time. As for the slider wishbone centering devise. Originally most all if not all of them were mounted under the rear end housing as this was closer to the correct roll center for a street driven vehicle. At some point Bickel had me put the mounts on top of the housing so he could drop the third member out the bottom. He realized the roll center really didn't matter in a drag race car. So putting them down low is really the preferred way for street driven cars. The last thing is 4 link or 4 bar selection. In a true 4 link the upper and lower tubes are parallel left to right with the upper tube being a little shorter and angled down towards the front. This creates an imaginary intersection point somewhere forward of the rear axle centerline at some imaginary height above the ground. This in effect is the point that vertical force will lift the car putting weight on the rear tires. Ideally you want to adjust it where it applies the full weight of the car on the rear tires at launch. And that's where you learn about driveline torque, acceleration forces, neutral axis and calculations. Getting it workable and some what close can be done with trial and error but to get it really competitive is a bit harder. No need to worry as these are street cars. Now the other system known as a 4 bar is equal length tubes equally spaced side to side and top to bottom. As the rear end travels up and down you create a swinging parallelogram. This design has no imaginary intersection and transmits no vertical forces into the chassis to load the tires. When you power down on that suspension you are basically using G Force or thrust to drive you forward and this is where lite weight is your friend! Much like a Top Fuel car you are using power to get the job done. Both types of suspension will need a centering device whether it is a wishbone, panard bar or a watts linkage you have to have something to center you. This now takes us to the triangulated 4 bar. It is pretty self explanatory as you can see. You still drive the car forward with the lower tubes and do pull with the uppers. The uppers also act to center you You can reverse the uppers and lowers and get about the same actions as a conventional triangulated 4 bar if you so choose. The one thing these type systems offer versus the 4 bar/link styles if body roll. In a good handling road car (Hot Rod are Hot Rods) you want some body roll. I have seen some road racing cars running triangulated bars with a watts linkage or a panard bar due to the high cornering forces. In these lite cars I wouldn't even worry about it. Just so you will know, all of this information is out there. I was just forced into researching it due tothe fact I was a Victim of my own Salesmanship! I was building housings to resist the bending (towing end under acceleration) issues of Top Fuel cars we were building. Thinking I would only build a few a year for our own use I was approached about a Pro Stock car builder and the problems they were having. I got a quick education in everything I ever had encountered or wondered about including tire shake. I spent 17 years building these housings for a number of the top chassis builders before I had any competition. If I get a chance I'll look on my external hard drive and see if I have any pictures with me to post. My big drive is home in Arkansas so we'll see. I didn't meant to make this so long but once you make one statement you realize you have to make them all. These little cars can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make them. You can get by with a lot of comprises and have few if any noticeable side effects. Just make it lite on yourself and go enjoy yourself. I hope this has given you some in site and something to think about.

Dale, I am not jumping on you. I was only gone to make a quick observation and short statement but end up longer then I realized. I tried to save this and make a separate post but couldn't figure out how to do it without starting over. So this is no reflection on you or anybody else. Please forgive me for hanging this on your post. Take care.

George

 

[Bucketman]

Thank you both. I know I could build a set if I had a lathe. I could probably build a set without a lathe. Just be a little harder to be perfect. The wishbone setup looks effective but my drive shaft would probably go right thru the middle of it. (with my luck). Thanks to your pictures I now know what a wishbone setup is.
George has answered my main question. The bars I ordered are 20" top and 29 1/2" lower. Since I'm using a Chevy rear end I cant weld to the differential housing as I have never tried welding cast iron. So I figured with the longer axle I could weld the lower arm to the axle housing right next to the differential, and the shorter upper arm closer to the wheel and to the outside of the frame.
I have channeled the body 1 1/2" but I can lower the bottom arm if I need to, to clear the body. This is my first attempt at building a car. I will make mistakes, but with your experience and willingness to share your knowledge maybe they will be cheaper. I've built a couple of motorcycles, but this is a little more difficult.

 

[fluidfloyd]

Bucketman,

That wishbone assembly should lay pretty much flat and under your drive shaft As the rear housing swings up and down your drive shaft will follow it on about the same arch. As for welding to cast iron...Don't do that. Aside from the problems of welding cast iron you would likely warp or distort the differential case and could cause undue wear on the bearings or the ring and pinion. The off road guys build a yoke or truss out of steel and wrap or bridge it across the iron case and weld it to the axle tubes. They then weld the suspension brackets to that bridge. Just google off road four links and you will see plenty of examples. There are plenty of ways to get to where you want to be. Good Luck with your project.

George

 

[baddawgcustoms]

Dale,

Actually only the lower bar are in compression or pushing while the uppers are in tension as the pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear. If you will look under the pro stock or pro mod cars that run true 4 link systems you will see large diameter tubes both top and bottom. Back in the day many a car was running 1 1/8" OD tubes and they would bow the lower tubes on acceleration causing torque steer. Back in the pits they would look for the cause and couldn't find anything wrong. Eventually as they increased that starting line torque they permanently bent the lower tubes causing serious steering problems. I can name a number of cars that turned into the wall because of this problem. I was building almost every sheet metal fabricated 9" Ford rear end housing in use and I saw it all. Once the OEM Ford housings had been good enough but finally the power levels exceeded the axle tubes torsional limits and the car took to toque steering. As long as the limits did not exceed the yield strength of either the axle tube or the column strength limit of the lower 4 link tube the bending or twisting was not permanent. That made it hard to find the cause but once it did exceed those limits then something bent stayed bent. Being as the axle tubes in a Ford housing are a lower yield material to ease the stamping process it was usually the first thing to give up. When I introduced the first of the specially fabricated the sheet metal housing for Ricky Smiths Pro Stock Thunderbird built by Jerry Bickel people started realizing what the problems were. Now that they had a physically strong and stiff housing they started killing the lower 4 link tubes. Most every car builder was already running 1 1/4 OD tube and most other followed pretty quickly. The Pro Mods were getting 1 3/8 OD lower tubes. One of the early leaders in the car building field was Chris Alston of Chassis Works. I was building his Pro Mod housings and we talked quite often about a lot of things. He was a real early anti roll bar guy and I agreed with him as it took a lot of strain off of the housing itself. Very few other chassis builders liked that concept but it wasn't long after that that Bickel started putting them in all of his cars. There is a story about that "I saw the light" moment but that's for another time. As for the slider wishbone centering devise. Originally most all if not all of them were mounted under the rear end housing as this was closer to the correct roll center for a street driven vehicle. At some point Bickel had me put the mounts on top of the housing so he could drop the third member out the bottom. He realized the roll center really didn't matter in a drag race car. So putting them down low is really the preferred way for street driven cars. The last thing is 4 link or 4 bar selection. In a true 4 link the upper and lower tubes are parallel left to right with the upper tube being a little shorter and angled down towards the front. This creates an imaginary intersection point somewhere forward of the rear axle centerline at some imaginary height above the ground. This in effect is the point that vertical force will lift the car putting weight on the rear tires. Ideally you want to adjust it where it applies the full weight of the car on the rear tires at launch. And that's where you learn about driveline torque, acceleration forces, neutral axis and calculations. Getting it workable and some what close can be done with trial and error but to get it really competitive is a bit harder. No need to worry as these are street cars. Now the other system known as a 4 bar is equal length tubes equally spaced side to side and top to bottom. As the rear end travels up and down you create a swinging parallelogram. This design has no imaginary intersection and transmits no vertical forces into the chassis to load the tires. When you power down on that suspension you are basically using G Force or thrust to drive you forward and this is where lite weight is your friend! Much like a Top Fuel car you are using power to get the job done. Both types of suspension will need a centering device whether it is a wishbone, panard bar or a watts linkage you have to have something to center you. This now takes us to the triangulated 4 bar. It is pretty self explanatory as you can see. You still drive the car forward with the lower tubes and do pull with the uppers. The uppers also act to center you You can reverse the uppers and lowers and get about the same actions as a conventional triangulated 4 bar if you so choose. The one thing these type systems offer versus the 4 bar/link styles if body roll. In a good handling road car (Hot Rod are Hot Rods) you want some body roll. I have seen some road racing cars running triangulated bars with a watts linkage or a panard bar due to the high cornering forces. In these lite cars I wouldn't even worry about it. Just so you will know, all of this information is out there. I was just forced into researching it due tothe fact I was a Victim of my own Salesmanship! I was building housings to resist the bending (towing end under acceleration) issues of Top Fuel cars we were building. Thinking I would only build a few a year for our own use I was approached about a Pro Stock car builder and the problems they were having. I got a quick education in everything I ever had encountered or wondered about including tire shake. I spent 17 years building these housings for a number of the top chassis builders before I had any competition. If I get a chance I'll look on my external hard drive and see if I have any pictures with me to post. My big drive is home in Arkansas so we'll see. I didn't meant to make this so long but once you make one statement you realize you have to make them all. These little cars can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make them. You can get by with a lot of comprises and have few if any noticeable side effects. Just make it lite on yourself and go enjoy yourself. I hope this has given you some in site and something to think about.

Dale, I am not jumping on you. I was only gone to make a quick observation and short statement but end up longer then I realized. I tried to save this and make a separate post but couldn't figure out how to do it without starting over. So this is no reflection on you or anybody else. Please forgive me for hanging this on your post. Take care.

George

Dale,

Actually only the lower bar are in compression or pushing while the uppers are in tension as the pinion gear tries to climb the ring gear. If you will look under the pro stock or pro mod cars that run true 4 link systems you will see large diameter tubes both top and bottom. Back in the day many a car was running 1 1/8" OD tubes and they would bow the lower tubes on acceleration causing torque steer. Back in the pits they would look for the cause and couldn't find anything wrong. Eventually as they increased that starting line torque they permanently bent the lower tubes causing serious steering problems. I can name a number of cars that turned into the wall because of this problem. I was building almost every sheet metal fabricated 9" Ford rear end housing in use and I saw it all. Once the OEM Ford housings had been good enough but finally the power levels exceeded the axle tubes torsional limits and the car took to toque steering. As long as the limits did not exceed the yield strength of either the axle tube or the column strength limit of the lower 4 link tube the bending or twisting was not permanent. That made it hard to find the cause but once it did exceed those limits then something bent stayed bent. Being as the axle tubes in a Ford housing are a lower yield material to ease the stamping process it was usually the first thing to give up. When I introduced the first of the specially fabricated the sheet metal housing for Ricky Smiths Pro Stock Thunderbird built by Jerry Bickel people started realizing what the problems were. Now that they had a physically strong and stiff housing they started killing the lower 4 link tubes. Most every car builder was already running 1 1/4 OD tube and most other followed pretty quickly. The Pro Mods were getting 1 3/8 OD lower tubes. One of the early leaders in the car building field was Chris Alston of Chassis Works. I was building his Pro Mod housings and we talked quite often about a lot of things. He was a real early anti roll bar guy and I agreed with him as it took a lot of strain off of the housing itself. Very few other chassis builders liked that concept but it wasn't long after that that Bickel started putting them in all of his cars. There is a story about that "I saw the light" moment but that's for another time. As for the slider wishbone centering devise. Originally most all if not all of them were mounted under the rear end housing as this was closer to the correct roll center for a street driven vehicle. At some point Bickel had me put the mounts on top of the housing so he could drop the third member out the bottom. He realized the roll center really didn't matter in a drag race car. So putting them down low is really the preferred way for street driven cars. The last thing is 4 link or 4 bar selection. In a true 4 link the upper and lower tubes are parallel left to right with the upper tube being a little shorter and angled down towards the front. This creates an imaginary intersection point somewhere forward of the rear axle centerline at some imaginary height above the ground. This in effect is the point that vertical force will lift the car putting weight on the rear tires. Ideally you want to adjust it where it applies the full weight of the car on the rear tires at launch. And that's where you learn about driveline torque, acceleration forces, neutral axis and calculations. Getting it workable and some what close can be done with trial and error but to get it really competitive is a bit harder. No need to worry as these are street cars. Now the other system known as a 4 bar is equal length tubes equally spaced side to side and top to bottom. As the rear end travels up and down you create a swinging parallelogram. This design has no imaginary intersection and transmits no vertical forces into the chassis to load the tires. When you power down on that suspension you are basically using G Force or thrust to drive you forward and this is where lite weight is your friend! Much like a Top Fuel car you are using power to get the job done. Both types of suspension will need a centering device whether it is a wishbone, panard bar or a watts linkage you have to have something to center you. This now takes us to the triangulated 4 bar. It is pretty self explanatory as you can see. You still drive the car forward with the lower tubes and do pull with the uppers. The uppers also act to center you You can reverse the uppers and lowers and get about the same actions as a conventional triangulated 4 bar if you so choose. The one thing these type systems offer versus the 4 bar/link styles if body roll. In a good handling road car (Hot Rod are Hot Rods) you want some body roll. I have seen some road racing cars running triangulated bars with a watts linkage or a panard bar due to the high cornering forces. In these lite cars I wouldn't even worry about it. Just so you will know, all of this information is out there. I was just forced into researching it due tothe fact I was a Victim of my own Salesmanship! I was building housings to resist the bending (towing end under acceleration) issues of Top Fuel cars we were building. Thinking I would only build a few a year for our own use I was approached about a Pro Stock car builder and the problems they were having. I got a quick education in everything I ever had encountered or wondered about including tire shake. I spent 17 years building these housings for a number of the top chassis builders before I had any competition. If I get a chance I'll look on my external hard drive and see if I have any pictures with me to post. My big drive is home in Arkansas so we'll see. I didn't meant to make this so long but once you make one statement you realize you have to make them all. These little cars can be as simple or as complicated as you want to make them. You can get by with a lot of comprises and have few if any noticeable side effects. Just make it lite on yourself and go enjoy yourself. I hope this has given you some in site and something to think about.

Dale, I am not jumping on you. I was only gone to make a quick observation and short statement but end up longer then I realized. I tried to save this and make a separate post but couldn't figure out how to do it without starting over. So this is no reflection on you or anybody else. Please forgive me for hanging this on your post. Take care.

George

Very much enjoyed the info Mr George. Much can be learned from people like yourself. My father loved to tell people God gave us two ears but only one mouth for a reason. He also use to love to ask me at night "what did you learn today? A day not learning something is a waste of precious time". Most of my experience is in building Harley's, and urinating money away on a dirt track car, so hotrods and custom chassis is all fairly new to me. I've become totally facinated with chassis engineering with this build I'm doing, and maybe one day I'll finish the half dozen books I've bought on the subject!

 

[Screaming Metal]

Yes, without Folks like Fluidfloyd around, wouldn't matter how much power We Motor Builders would make.....if those great chassis guys couldn't get it (the power) to the ground, it would be all for naught....
All those Pro Stock and the Super Comps, with those 18-20"wide rears, all the rest of the width is tires....the torque from the big motors, bend and twist things. Its amazing that a partial turn on the bars of a 4 link will put a competitor firmly in the winners circle.

 

[RBeck]

I ordered a set of these off Ebay. They are the same length used on the Speedway T.

 

[EX JUNK]

Bucketman,

That wishbone assembly should lay pretty much flat and under your drive shaft As the rear housing swings up and down your drive shaft will follow it on about the same arch. As for welding to cast iron...Don't do that. Aside from the problems of welding cast iron you would likely warp or distort the differential case and could cause undue wear on the bearings or the ring and pinion. The off road guys build a yoke or truss out of steel and wrap or bridge it across the iron case and weld it to the axle tubes. They then weld the suspension brackets to that bridge. Just google off road four links and you will see plenty of examples. There are plenty of ways to get to where you want to be. Good Luck with your project.

George

George, what you state about the drive shaft on a wishbone set up is spot on. If you notice the front mounting point is a sliding connection also.

Jim

 

[meangreen]

George's explanation above is very good and a good place to start. If this is your first build, you will learn a lot. George is correct that these lightweight little cars are pretty forgiving in some ways. Since 1968 I have built 21 or 22 frames for a laundry list of different style cars and I am still learning. I have used 3-link, parallel four-bar, triangulated four-bar, unequal link four-bar, ladder bar, and lift bar (sometimes called truck arm) suspensions. I have used leaf springs ( both semi- and quarter-elliptic), coils, coil-overs, and torsion bars. Each of us who have built multiple cars have our favorite ways of doing things. I could recommend what I like, but it's purely my opinion. One piece of advice I can give you that almost no one can argue with is: Keep it simple. If you overcomplicate this first build, it could become a discouraging fiasco.

You have a circle track background; me too. I spent 30+ years, off & on, chasing around in circles on both dirt and asphalt. Therefore, I like a car that handles well. I will put my coupe or roadster up against any similarly powered car on a twisty road. Neither one is particularly fast, but both handle corners like a slot car. Some of the exotic looking hotrod suspensions don't handle worth $#!+ because they bind or cause bad geometry when pushed hard in a corner. Decide what you want your car to do and build your suspension accordingly. There is lots of knowledge available to you on this site; feel free to use it as much as you want. We like to help.

 

[Keeper]

I am always amazed at the knowledge on this site. Thanks everyone.

 

[fluidfloyd]

George, what you state about the drive shaft on a wishbone set up is spot on. If you notice the front mounting point is a sliding connection also.

Jim,

Yes, I did notice that and should have pointed out that the triangle length does change as the rear end moves up and down. Depending on the difference in upper and lower drive links that triangle length will vary. Also I should have noted that in a equal length parallelogram system there will be no pinion angle change. In the 4 link race type design the shorter upper lengths with a downward angle do cause pinion angle change. That's why you hear advise of nosing the pinion down 3-4 degrees at ride height. The racer thinking is it will straighten out the drive line angle under power and have less u-joint friction with some small amount of performance grade. I'm not sure about that but if you phase the u-joints in a race car with a lot of power you will have pinion climb up the ring gear and cause the u-joint to be running in a reversed angle position and that can cause a joint failure. In a street car under normal cruising conditions this reversed angle position would cause you vibration and excessive wear problems in the rear joint. I think Bill posted some drawings of correct u-joint phasing but most online shaft shops offer that information with illustrations. I assume you are running your sliding shaft though an oilite type bushing. Even with that it's not a bad idea to pull it apart once in a while and clean it of road grime. If they get steel corrosion and gall up and seize it can get real interesting. You do have a clean well thought out system and it probably rides and handles pretty good. I like it well and think it serves well for others to think about. One other quick thought on straight inline tube 4 bar systems. The wider you can space the 4 link brackets on the housing the more stable the car will be. You build them really narrow and they tend to want to roll around the drive shaft axis. Place the shock out as far as you can also. You can still lay them at an angle to increase travel and soften the ride but you want to do it out board as much as possible. I think that about does it for me. Hope this clears up any questions anyone has. If not then let me know and i"ll try and come up with an answer. If not then I'll just make up something outrageous. Have Fun!

George

 

[fluidfloyd]

Yes, without Folks like Fluidfloyd around, wouldn't matter how much power We Motor Builders would make.....if those great chassis guys couldn't get it (the power) to the ground, it would be all for naught....
All those Pro Stock and the Super Comps, with those 18-20"wide rears, all the rest of the width is tires....the torque from the big motors, bend and twist things. Its amazing that a partial turn on the bars of a 4 link will put a competitor firmly in the winners circle.

Man I don't tune them, I just build them. Most of what I learned is due to strength failures but you do end up learning what's happening to cause those problems. I was fortunate to be able to work with a number of 1st class pro stock car builders and a engineer friend so I got a lot of feed back over the years. The art of making those cars go down the track straight as a string and making that suspension do everything right is quite an undertaking and I take my hat off to those crew chiefs and teams that make their living doing it. You of all people know whats involved and the suspension is just the mechanical devise that makes all the other inputted things work correctly. Track temperature and condition, tire pressure, air quality, clutch management, gear ratios, engine tuneup and driver being on kill all have a huge factor. The suspension is the only mechanical fixed component in the equation. You still have to know how to apply it. Now you knew that didn't you!

George

 

[fluidfloyd]

George's explanation above is very good and a good place to start. If this is your first build, you will learn a lot. George is correct that these lightweight little cars are pretty forgiving in some ways. Since 1968 I have built 21 or 22 frames for a laundry list of different style cars and I am still learning. I have used 3-link, parallel four-bar, triangulated four-bar, unequal link four-bar, ladder bar, and lift bar (sometimes called truck arm) suspensions. I have used leaf springs ( both semi- and quarter-elliptic), coils, coil-overs, and torsion bars. Each of us who have built multiple cars have our favorite ways of doing things. I could recommend what I like, but it's purely my opinion. One piece of advice I can give you that almost no one can argue with is: Keep it simple. If you overcomplicate this first build, it could become a discouraging fiasco.

You have a circle track background; me too. I spent 30+ years, off & on, chasing around in circles on both dirt and asphalt. Therefore, I like a car that handles well. I will put my coupe or roadster up against any similarly powered car on a twisty road. Neither one is particularly fast, but both handle corners like a slot car. Some of the exotic looking hotrod suspensions don't handle worth $#!+ because they bind or cause bad geometry when pushed hard in a corner. Decide what you want your car to do and build your suspension accordingly. There is lots of knowledge available to you on this site; feel free to use it as much as you want. We like to help.

Meangreen,

I didn't forget you! Building 23 frames for yourself is pretty impressive. You named just about all the rear suspension designs commonly used but you left out one of my favorites and that would be the single lift torque arm. If it wasn't for the crowded packaging issues with a T-bucket it would be my first choice. As a dirt racer I know you're familiar with them. Those guys can stick tires to oil slicks with a T-arm car. I have put several in '32 Fords and later and they really work great. I'm not going to go into it now but they have a number of advantages in my opinion. Another subject for another time.

George

 

[fluidfloyd]

Very much enjoyed the info Mr George. Much can be learned from people like yourself. My father loved to tell people God gave us two ears but only one mouth for a reason. He also use to love to ask me at night "what did you learn today? A day not learning something is a waste of precious time". Most of my experience is in building Harley's, and urinating money away on a dirt track car, so hotrods and custom chassis is all fairly new to me. I've become totally facinated with chassis engineering with this build I'm doing, and maybe one day I'll finish the half dozen books I've bought on the subject!

Dale,

Back in 1971 I decided I wanted to build a copy of an Indian girder front fork for my Harley. I waked into a shop that had an original against the advise of a few friends. They told me about this guy that was a complete madman and true 1% club rider. I walked in and he the was the poster boy for the Hells Angles for sure. Was the kind of guy that intimidated people with just his demeanor. I told him what I wanted and he just stood there stunned that anyone would dare walk in cold and ask him for that information. He finally says come in the back and there sat the finest 1947 Knucklehead I had ever laid my eyes on. So simple, so clean so sanitary that I knew what I wanted to do with my life. There was absolutely nothing on that bike that was not required to make it run. To this day I have never seen one that comes close to his. Not sure why but we just had an instant like for each other and we became life long friends. He was a gifted artist in every medium you can think of. He could paint portraits, Egyptian art, aircraft, cars, carve wooden sculptures, do metal sculptures that were completely tig welded and looked like casting and much more. He never did it to sell, he did it because it pleased him. It was his artistic eye that allowed him to build his motorcycles and he built them well. I went back to Tennessee and enrolled the State Vocational School and took welding and never looked back. My friend and I built a number of HD frames, hot rods and just crazy stuff. When he found out I was moving to Arkansas he, his wife and their dog beat me up there. He influenced me to look at mechanical things as an artist and it has worked out well. Unfortunately he passed away before I got moved and I still think about it everyday. I find myself asking what he would have done on this project. A true friend for sure. And just for the record he was a hard drinking hard charging homicidal maniac! I wouldn't have had it any other way.

George

 

[Screaming Metal]

Man I don't tune them, I just build them. Most of what I learned is due to strength failures but you do end up learning what's happening to cause those problems. I was fortunate to be able to work with a number of 1st class pro stock car builders and a engineer friend so I got a lot of feed back over the years. The art of making those cars go down the track straight as a string and making that suspension do everything right is quite an undertaking and I take my hat off to those crew chiefs and teams that make their living doing it. You of all people know whats involved and the suspension is just the mechanical devise that makes all the other inputted things work correctly. Track temperature and condition, tire pressure, air quality, clutch management, gear ratios, engine tuneup and driver being on kill all have a huge factor. The suspension is the only mechanical fixed component in the equation. You still have to know how to apply it. Now you knew that didn't you!

George

Just givein' out the cudos where those cudos are due.....;-)

I just hate to see all of our hard work over the years that everybody put into all the racing, the race cars and the sport in general, to get out, the way its going....alot of teams are planning on getting out and closing, whole teams are being sold. The small guy can no longer afford the sport anymore. Its really sad, a major part of our countrys heritage has been sold out....
I'll be getting out of it one of these days, I just hope I don't see its downfall.
I can see folks racing electrics in the future, thinking about all us Dinosaurs tuning cars that put out from 300 horses per cylinder to over 1000 horses per cylinder....actually feeling the ground shake when those car launched.
Have to put a card in the spokes with a cloths pin to hear some of those electrics take off now.... no rumbling, no fire out the zoomies, no more nomex fire suites, no more civies up close to the staging lane holding their hands over their ears on the launch....
Man, its been a ride....

 

[Screaming Metal]

And to MeanGreen also, and all of our chassis guys....Heres to ya, dudes!