Unusual front ends

[Zandoz]

I liked the idea of splitting the front axle:

No need for a Panhard. Fat Man made a kit for this, but dropped it due to low interest.
Also like to try a composite monoleaf spring. There is a company (can't recall name) that makes them for Corvettes and I called them a few years ago and they would make a custom one for the bucket. Supposed to have some advantages.
And just added Houdaille rotary hydraulic shocks:

They're adjustable. And I like the low profile.

It seems like everytime someone brings up the split axle set up there is a chorus of naysayers. I will testify that it can be made to work. Back in the 60s my uncle built his own sports/racer from the ground up, featuring a split axle front suspension. It worked well enough to be ran on closed circuit tracks and gymkhana events...and well enough that the car was resurrected in 2014, put through all relevant safety inspections, and in the fall of 2014 ran at Lime Rock




If the design was inherently dangerous, I doubt they would have let it on the track with multi million dollar cars.

 

[Hackerbilt]

It seems like everytime someone brings up the split axle set up there is a chorus of naysayers. I will testify that it can be made to work. Back in the 60s my uncle built his own sports/racer from the ground up, featuring a split axle front suspension. It worked well enough to be ran on closed circuit tracks and gymkhana events...and well enough that the car was resurrected in 2014, put through all relevant safety inspections, and in the fall of 2014 ran at Lime Rock

If the design was inherently dangerous, I doubt they would have let it on the track with multi million dollar cars.

It can definately be made to work...but I don't think simply splitting an existing axle right at the middle is the best way to do it as far as handling goes.
Mallard clubman cars used a split front axle but in such a way that the left and right axle arms overlapped to opposite sides of the car and the positioning of the pivot points was critical.
They worked WELL.
Most times - construction convenience - isn't the key to good handling! LoL

In all honesty though...how often do we really run our cars at anything even approaching 10/10ths?
It's usually more about some comfort in cruising.
I'd bet the big drawback to using one of those actual split axles was the obvious camber changes as the suspension cycled.
Just not good looking to watch...

 

[RPM]

It can definately be made to work...but I don't think simply splitting an existing axle right at the middle is the best way to do it as far as handling goes.
Mallard clubman cars used a split front axle but in such a way that the left and right axle arms overlapped to opposite sides of the car and the positioning of the pivot points was critical.
They worked WELL.
Most times - construction convenience - isn't the key to good handling! LoL

In all honesty though...how often do we really run our cars at anything even approaching 10/10ths?
It's usually more about some comfort in cruising.
I'd bet the big drawback to using one of those actual split axles was the obvious camber changes as the suspension cycled.
Just not good looking to watch...

The bump steer on that was probably awful.

 

[Zandoz]

It can definately be made to work...but I don't think simply splitting an existing axle right at the middle is the best way to do it as far as handling goes.
Mallard clubman cars used a split front axle but in such a way that the left and right axle arms overlapped to opposite sides of the car and the positioning of the pivot points was critical.
They worked WELL.
Most times - construction convenience - isn't the key to good handling! LoL

In all honesty though...how often do we really run our cars at anything even approaching 10/10ths?
It's usually more about some comfort in cruising.
I'd bet the big drawback to using one of those actual split axles was the obvious camber changes as the suspension cycled.
Just not good looking to watch...

You are right...It's not a no-brainer. I remember uncle Gene spent a lot of time getting the axis of the center pivots just tight. I know they ended up high in front and low in back, but I do not know the specific angle. Also it was configured to be center steer, with the tie rods pivoting mirroring the axle pivots.

When I started my project, I thought about taking a stab at doing a split axle. To do it right would be beyond my fabrication infrastructure and ability. Plus I doubt the intended driving style for my car could really justify much beyond a typical 4-bar set-up.

For the overlapping split axles, Ford probably took that configuration as far as it could go with their Twin I-Beam truck suspension. Somewhere I have a link to an article documenting adapting the Ford truck components to a T.

 

[fletcherson]

You are right...It's not a no-brainer. I remember uncle Gene spent a lot of time getting the axis of the center pivots just tight. I know they ended up high in front and low in back, but I do not know the specific angle. Also it was configured to be center steer, with the tie rods pivoting mirroring the axle pivots.

When I started my project, I thought about taking a stab at doing a split axle. To do it right would be beyond my fabrication infrastructure and ability. Plus I doubt the intended driving style for my car could really justify much beyond a typical 4-bar set-up.

For the overlapping split axles, Ford probably took that configuration as far as it could go with their Twin I-Beam truck suspension. Somewhere I have a link to an article documenting adapting the Ford truck components to a T.

The Ford setup are long and their pivots overlap, one axle in front of the other. they use longer than a split axle beam. It's almost two axles. To mirror that on a T you would have to pivot each side from the opposite frame rail. The longer the axle, the less deviation. It's a cool idea, but for now, I'm going to go old school on mine. The thing about a T is there is minimal suspension travel, so you could get away with more than you could on a heavier car with full suspension travel.

 

[Swampdog]

What would be wrong with one axel being 2 inches ahead of the other. I built a couple of dragster with 2 inch stager in the front end. The NHRA rule book put 2 inch max limit on it.

 

[Screaming Metal]

You are right...It's not a no-brainer. I remember uncle Gene spent a lot of time getting the axis of the center pivots just tight. I know they ended up high in front and low in back, but I do not know the specific angle. Also it was configured to be center steer, with the tie rods pivoting mirroring the axle pivots.

When I started my project, I thought about taking a stab at doing a split axle. To do it right would be beyond my fabrication infrastructure and ability. Plus I doubt the intended driving style for my car could really justify much beyond a typical 4-bar set-up.

For the overlapping split axles, Ford probably took that configuration as far as it could go with their Twin I-Beam truck suspension. Somewhere I have a link to an article documenting adapting the Ford truck components to a T.

I remember the article on putting the Twin I-Beams on a bucket....point being as long as its safe, you like the looks, and the owner is happy....thats all that counts....
I had a customer had me hook up a ole detroit diesel to a automatic, and stick it in a refurbished early 1970's era altered that was setup as a street car.
It was big hideous, ugly, nasty, funky....the more I messed with the thing, the cooler it looked....started to grow on me....
But the owner loved it, and thats what its all about....performance wise....it kicked butt!

 

[Screaming Metal]

I remember back when I first got bit by the TBug, I'd worked as a engine-builder, doing really fast cars, dealing with altereds all the time and FC's, mostly the alkys. I used to see T's at the track all the times, I'd see some residents bring their rigs to the track, the weekend warrior stuff....
I was like Naaaaa, just a frame, motor, and a place to sit....
Year after year I'd see these little cars....I just looked like what I was working on all the time. I knew the potential of these things, but was just turned off by their looks....
That was until I say this T over in Ca., and it had the right motor, the right stance, and the right look. I was tuning a car for the Summer Nationals, I heard this Big Block Pontiac, idling out in the parking lot. I turned to look, and there she sat. I put down my wrenches, got some hand cleaner and grabbed my rag cleaned my hands, grabbed my creme soda, walked thru the line of trailers, out the gate, into the public parkinglot.
I LOVED PONTIACS....espescially the old HO's and Super Duty Catalina's, GTO's, FireBirds....
Anyway, It was Called The Big Chief....And I fell in LOVE!
If this owner would sell this car, I would have bought it, right there, on the spot....it was Pontiac Powered, Thin wheels up front, and Huge Weenies out back....

Anyway....I started eyeing these cars, and I started thinking how I'd build my own, so I started saving parts, finding old motors, etc, storing them.

Now I've seen some ugly shit built that I would not be caught dead standing beside....but who am I to say whats best for this guy or that guy.....hell, if they like it, thats the main thing.
I've seen stuff that I absolutely hate, win shows, so, what do I know!
Anyway, I stopped critizing, and started looking for details and the history....and starting enjoying the unique-ness of these cars, and their heritage....

While I myself like a certain look most appealing, I now like and enjoy looking at all TBuckets....But the Look at that T in the parking Lot.....The Big Chief....I'll never ever forget that nerve that she struck. And most all my builds I've done for myself have been to CAPTURE that look That I Loved About That Car....

 

[Screaming Metal]

Front Axles are like a major part of these cars....A-Arms are a great front suspension, but look only so-so on a T. Some look ugly as hell, others have done it tastefully. The twin I-beams, could look cool enough. I love the look of the old style dropped econoline axle, the old school look. But, thats just me....
I love all kinds of motors....whens the last time you saw a AMC 401 in a bucket? The potential is there, makes alot of power. The old GMC V-12 truck motor from the 60's, a built Porsche pancake 6, with a blower on top always fastinated me....sitting out front....would look different, and actually have alot of performance potential....
I have a old V-12 Caddy motor I've been hording for alot of years, with a ton of parts for it....I'm gonna build one and put it in a bucket, after I retire, just to say I did it....

 

[Screaming Metal]

What would be wrong with one axel being 2 inches ahead of the other. I built a couple of dragster with 2 inch stager in the front end. The NHRA rule book put 2 inch max limit on it.

Thank Big Daddy Don for that 2" rule on the front ends....The Swamp Rat was indeed sneaky....

 

[Zandoz]

I remember the article on putting the Twin I-Beams on a bucket....point being as long as its safe, you like the looks, and the owner is happy....thats all that counts....
I had a customer had me hook up a ole detroit diesel to a automatic, and stick it in a refurbished early 1970's era altered that was setup as a street car.
It was big hideous, ugly, nasty, funky....the more I messed with the thing, the cooler it looked....started to grow on me....
But the owner loved it, and thats what its all about....performance wise....it kicked butt!

You hit the nail on the head! As long as it works for the owner and is safe it's all good. Like what I used to tell software users when I was training them for a new release...Different is neither better nor worse. It's just different.

I am a sucker for the unusual. If I had the funds, I'd be building one of RPM's widest bodies with an early 50s Packard Thunderbolt straight eight connected to a 700R4. I know the engine is a boat anchor, but the first time I heard one running open exhaust I was totally hooked...absolutely an internal combustion symphony. Actually the search for a Thunderbolt is the reason I'm building a T-Bucket today (long story).

 

[fluidfloyd]

You hit the nail on the head! As long as it works for the owner and is safe it's all good. Like what I used to tell software users when I was training them for a new release...Different is neither better nor worse. It's just different.

I am a sucker for the unusual. If I had the funds, I'd be building one of RPM's widest bodies with an early 50s Packard Thunderbolt straight eight connected to a 700R4. I know the engine is a boat anchor, but the first time I heard one running open exhaust I was totally hooked...absolutely an internal combustion symphony. Actually the search for a Thunderbolt is the reason I'm building a T-Bucket today (long story).

Bill, You mean like this!

 

[fletcherson]

Is that a strait eight?

 

[fluidfloyd]

Is that a strait eight?

Yes it is. Pulled out of a 1940 Packard hearse yesterday. Actually started on it Thursday but must have gotten Heat Stress. Dropped back one energy notch and finished it Friday. Still feeling the effects. Unfortunately this is a restoration project so the engine is not for sale, Sure makes you want though!

 

[Hackerbilt]

The bump steer on that was probably awful.

Sounds like it might be...but I doubt it!
These cars were and still are respected Clubman race cars. They handle like they are on rails.
I've tried to find out in pictures how the steering was configured but no luck yet.
No idea if its simple or complicated.
The suspension itself being so simple, it might just be that its center split and relys on very limited suspension movement to keep bumpsteer under control.
I did find a pic of a Lotus 11 chassis with a center split beam.
It steers with a very narrow rack and the axle pieces (Ford Popular axle split) are actually mounted upside down to keep the inner pivots as low as possible. The radius arms are mounted very low as well.
Apparently this was done to prevent the "jacking effect" split beams often have on hard turns...and which the split beam Allards were famous for!

 

[fletcherson]

Yes it is. Pulled out of a 1940 Packard hearse yesterday. Actually started on it Thursday but must have gotten Heat Stress. Dropped back one energy notch and finished it Friday. Still feeling the effects. Unfortunately this is a restoration project so the engine is not for sale, Sure makes you want though!

I love cool old stuff like that! I bet that's a heavy beast.

 

[fluidfloyd]

I love cool old stuff like that! I bet that's a heavy beast.

Likewise! I will get the basic dimensions just in case I ever run across a spare one. Would look real good in an open bay roadster! The owner told me that they are not really very expensive to buy or rebuild. Of course his ideal of expense and mine might well be completely different!

 

[fletcherson]

Likewise! I will get the basic dimensions just in case I ever run across a spare one. Would look real good in an open bay roadster! The owner told me that they are not really very expensive to buy or rebuild. Of course his ideal of expense and mine might well be completely different!

I agree it would be awesome in a roadster. It would be a torque monster. There is a guy that brings a road master to the local car shows with one in it. The entire car is immaculate, but I've always liked the power plant. Not many of them around. You would have to make the engine bay longer, but that would add to the look of the car.

 

[fluidfloyd]

fletcherson...If and when I build a new roadster I plan on an inline six. but is an eight fell out of the sky I would sure welcome it.I have always liked the Chrysler slant six engines. Lots of speed equipment built for them, readily available at very reasonable prices and they look good leaning over. I am in the design stage of the chassis with the rear being something a little different. Just working out a few things first. My main problem is I have a full machine shop at home in Arkansas but I'm working in the Kansas City area. The shop I'm in doesn't have the needed equipment to do what I want nor the extra room to tie up. I am building a company t-bucket as time allows but it is on hold for several other paying projects such as the Packard. Also have a 54 Studebaker to start on Monday and a 64 Impala to finish Monday. I do have a very generous offer to use someone else's shop to machine the necessary parts but I'm not sure if I really want to start a car here in Kansas then transfer it to Arkansas at a later date. Getting older is not going to make it any easier either. I told the owner/funeral director of that 1940 Packard that he might want to reserve me a ride in the back just in case I nosed over. We'll see!

 

[Gerry]

Surprised this one hasn't come up yet....