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expert advise needed on circle track oil pans

deckofficer

Banned
I hope some of you guys have some experiance with circle track oil pans. My engine only has about 3000 miles since build and since most of my driving is on twisty mountain roads I have noticed tailpipe smoke on hard right turns and have burned as much as a quart of oil in 200 miles. This was on a round trip to Tahoe via hwy 50, and since the T corners better than my Vette, I was screaming around the corners, typically 80 mph in 45 mph sweepers. I have also noticed that the carbon deposits are only around the driver's side tailpipe. Since racers do the ovals turning left only, I wonder if hard right hand turns are not addressed in the baffles and windage arrangements for a circle track race oil pan? Am I nuts? The performance seems fine, so could you burn large amounts of oil in right turns??? I need help on this one as you can see from my LS post, I'm almost ready for an engine that isn't as high strung as mine, because I love low rpm grunt and my engine at 2000 rpms does not have much grunt. This Monday I'll be driving 500 miles to LA and I'll check oil consumption on a mostly straight cruise down the Interstate. I guess I might answer my own question if I don't burn any oil on the Interstate vs. the mountain roads I've been having too much fun ripping around.
 
I hope some of you guys have some experiance with circle track oil pans. My engine only has about 3000 miles since build and since most of my driving is on twisty mountain roads I have noticed tailpipe smoke on hard right turns and have burned as much as a quart of oil in 200 miles. This was on a round trip to Tahoe via hwy 50, and since the T corners better than my Vette, I was screaming around the corners, typically 80 mph in 45 mph sweepers. I have also noticed that the carbon deposits are only around the driver's side tailpipe. Since racers do the ovals turning left only, I wonder if hard right hand turns are not addressed in the baffles and windage arrangements for a circle track race oil pan? Am I nuts? The performance seems fine, so could you burn large amounts of oil in right turns??? I need help on this one as you can see from my LS post, I'm almost ready for an engine that isn't as high strung as mine, because I love low rpm grunt and my engine at 2000 rpms does not have much grunt. This Monday I'll be driving 500 miles to LA and I'll check oil consumption on a mostly straight cruise down the Interstate. I guess I might answer my own question if I don't burn any oil on the Interstate vs. the mountain roads I've been having too much fun ripping around.
I do the same in the Mtn's of N.C. Never had a problem of burning oil. Seems you have other problems.
 
I found an old problem that I thought was just what you were talking about, but I thought it was caused by something else... Mine turned out to be a blown gasket on the fuel pump block off plate, on hard left turns or full bore pedal, the oil surged towards that area and blew out oil out onto the exhaust pipe and smoked, I thought it was burning it in the engine (of my Elk) fixed the leak and no more oil smoke or using it up... daaa on my part for not finding it for so long, but your's sounds like something different being a right turn only thing... Maybe something happening in the valve cover area? bad oil seal on a intake valve?
 
bpicket,

Are you also running a circle track race oil pan for ground clearance?

Ted Brown, outside of exhaust system still looks like new. The carbon was found around the Jag IRS from the end of the driver's side exhaust pipe. The trip to LA will confirm if oil consumption is the same on a straight hwy. If so, time to do a quick compression test. One of the many issues with a lopey cam, it is nearly impossible to hear a miss. And performance seems the same.
 
bpicket,

Are you also running a circle track race oil pan for ground clearance?

Ted Brown, outside of exhaust system still looks like new. The carbon was found around the Jag IRS from the end of the driver's side exhaust pipe. The trip to LA will confirm if oil consumption is the same on a straight hwy. If so, time to do a quick compression test. One of the many issues with a lopey cam, it is nearly impossible to hear a miss. And performance seems the same.
No, stock pan and I only have 4" of ground clearance at the pan. Sounds like Ted said it right with the oil seals, giudes , and or the return holes stpped up. Good luck.
 
I hope you find that it is something simple to fix, and shake your head because you did not think about it earlier... Have a great/safe trip to the LA area, if you are ever near Bakersfield love to see your ride and meet you in person... :)
 
I'd like to meet you also Ted. Your a bit of a legend. If this oil issue isn't broken rings (I'll do a compression test when I get back north) I should still be getting good fuel mileage and after filling in Placerville, should have a 1/4 tank by Bakersfield and would stop at any gas station that is near you and the freeway.
 
On CircleTrack pans, you have kickout and trapdoors for the oil to run on both sides, to hold all the access oil and to keep it off the crank. Now, last time I checked, there wasn't a difference between the Circletrack pan and the Autocross....(roadrace pan).

As a enginebuilder, I have seen oil climb up inside the block and up onto the lower cylinder walls...especially on the roadrace motors and the good ole boys up in Tn. @ the dirt tracks. Look up the ass of one of these cars honkin around thru a corner and when they start throwin the buckshot coming outta the corners, you'll see puffs of smoke coming from the tailpipes, (or lack there of). Watch a roadracer, the puffs of smoke you see is oil, and the alky, theres a steady fire coming from the tailpipes....and most of the oil is burnt odd....but there is still cmoke and oily residue coming from that bank of cylinders.

Oil also is slung agianst the rear of the valvecovers....and as theere are oil passages from which oil can flow....if you corner hard enough to soak the cylinders on that side, chances are your cornering hard enough to shoot just a touch up on the bottom of the pistons and the unloaded piston rings on that side.

This is probably a little of it and the oil in the valvecovers on yop of your valveguides, just as Ted said. Hope this helps....

If theres no problem driving normally....I wouldn't worry. The Bcttom of your pan and the side kickouts are designed to hold 7+ quarts of oil. Those sides can't hold all the 4 quarts in the pan....that oil is fluid and it has to go somewhere....the other 3 is circulating thru your crank, lifters, pushrods, oilfilter and passages....
 
Plus the fact that there is a whole lot of wind (pressure) in the pan area, even more under power, trying to blow oil anywhere it can... :) Unless you have a good vacuum, and still under power that vacuum will disappear... Drive safe my Friend :)
 
There are left-turn circle track pans and there are road race pans.

A left turn pan will usually end up with a pocket on the right side and there will generally be lips/baffles at the top of the pocket to prevent oil from climbing up the right-side pan wall. The left side of the pan will generally not be baffled the same way. Since centrifugal force will generally be keeping oil on the right side of the pan, the baffling is purpose-designed to take advantage of that.

Another thing to keep in mind is most left turn pans will have the pickup located more to the right side, where it will always remain covered with oil, even in the corners. If the baffling in your pan also has trap doors, they will be oriented to admit oil into the pocket and not the other way.

So if you do hit a right turn at speed, oil is being forced to the left side of the pan. Suddenly, the left turn baffling is no longer working and oil is not where the pickup is located. In other words, not good. And oil is now flooding the left cylinder walls and if you're using a gennywine ACME ring set, the oil ring is being overworked. People so often want to run 'magic' parts on the street and then use a $40 ring set. Save your money on the voodoo parts and spend it in areas where you need it.

A road race pan will often be designed with a swivel pickup, so the pickup can float with centrifugal force. And baffling will be more focused on keeping oil in the sump during acceleration/braking, as well as turns. Then again, most road race applications are dry sump, so it is a bit of a moot point.

I've no idea of what you're working with for clearance, but most of the pan manufacturers have pans with wide sumps that are 8.250" deep. If that is still too deep, a good option is a P/N 31503 (L.H. Dipstick) or a P/N 31502 (R/H Dipstick) Milodon pan. It is 7.500" deep and has a removable, louvered windage tray. The pan will hold five quarts, plus the filter, so you're still keeping some extra capacity.

I am not a fan of running any 'magic' oil pumps on a street-driven small Chevy. A standard oil pump performs quite well, thank you very much. And with a stock pump, you don't have the worries of pumping the pan dry at highway speeds as you would with a high volume pump. Sometimes people lose track of why parts are designed the way they are. Back in the Dark Ages, oil systems were rudimentary and running a race motor at high RPM meant you needed to keep a lot of oil moving. So we had high volume oil pumps. But high volume oil pumps could pump a pan dry, so we had high volume oil pans. But we learned how to shut off the oil moving to the top of the motor, so we started running very small volumes of oil. Then when we realized we were killing valve springs by running them with so little oil we started back to big pans and big pumps. Jenkins would plug all the returns in a cylinder head and glue on a valve cover. A couple quarts of oil went in the pan and then the rocker boxes were filled with oil. That worked, but pity the poor guy that had to check the valves and springs the next time. I remember Lingenfelter was packing valve springs and rocker arms in grease, because he had all the upper oil shut off. Stuff was a mess to work on. Suddenly, we had oil sprinkler bars in the valve covers and everyone was OK again. I used to have trouble keeping oil restrictors in stock and now I bet I haven't sold a set in over a year.

Double pump Holleys are the same way. Ever wonder why some carbs have two accelerator pumps and some have only one? On a race car, you need to get the motor up in an RPM range where it is happy and you need to do it as quickly as possible. Which requires a lot of air flow, right? So we'll manually pull the secondary throttle blades open to get more air. Ooops, now the motor stumbles. No problem, add a secondary accelerator pump circuit to cover up the stumble. You thought having two accelerator pumps was a big performance tip, but the fact remains it is nothing more than a crutch. Anyone old enough to remember the old gear-driven secondary shaft kits that were sold for vacuum secondary carbs? People bought them like candy and then couldn't sort why their motors would stumble off idle. :hoist:

If you have a 5.13 rear end gear, run a lot of oil. If you don't, keep it simple. Run a pan with a windage tray and a standard oil pump. Spend the money for the 'magic' oiling system on something you do need.
 
Mike,

That post of yours was a great education. I did my hot rodding in the 60's and since what you said that I had knowledge of was dead spot on, then all the points you covered that was new to me has very good credibility. I have read some of your other posts that were long, and am glad that someone as sharp as you on hot rods will take the time to bring us 60's dabblers up to speed. So, are the cold hard facts yes, if I'm running a circle track race pan and making aggressive right turns, then that smoke coming out of the driver's side tailpipe is from my crankcase oil running unabated up the left side of the block and finding a way through both oil and compression rings? And burning a quart in just 200 miles of "spirited" mountain driving is possible?
 
They were quite a conersation piece for the newbie's! Ha! Remember, we don't need no stinking linkage on the back 2 barrels....give us a gear drive! Ha!

Aaaaah, the good old says....we put everything we could 'roller' in the valvecovers to try to keep all the friction down, went with restrictors in the lifters, before they I was drilling and tapping the lifter oiling holes, drilling a .030 hole in a small setscrew and screwing them in....back and forth, back and forth....then we started mounting cameras into the side of the oilpans with strobelights so we could 'see' what was going on with light speed cameras. we did the same on the valve covers....

on some stuff....we've come full circle....
 
I guess I'm getting too old. I should have clarified it more. You have the left turners as Mike said, then regulars, then Nascar types, then Autocross, then you got the CanAm stuff, then ...Yada, Yada,...you get the pic. Matck your parts.

I certainly hope some of our guys haven't put a lefty on a T....its kinda a no-brainer there, you eventually gotta turn the other way! Ha!

Hey, I'm not saying in some special cases....after all...I build custom blower setups. I didn't ever think I'd see a blown dirt rig run across a small body of water. But then agian you gotta be a little Kooky to mount a 3000+ horse motor in a altered frame, running a 4WD suspension setup and paddlewheels just to see how fast you can go about 100 yards? Some of my Tractor Pull customs are just out there....
What di I know....I just build the stuff...

Anyway....yes, you can burn a quart in a couple of hundred miles like that, on you upstroke, if your throwing alot of oil onto your lower cylinders...your oil rings are 'unloaded', and you'll get some blowby....
 
Screaming metal,

Well yes, one of us does have that pan, but there is a good story to it. I bought the Track T from the builder, a 32 year veteran tech for special effects in Hollywood. He has some rather cool inovations he applied to the T, like mounting the drive train as low in the frame as possible and keeping the weight down to 1790 lbs. He enjoyed his build in Southern California for 15+ years before retiring from Hollywood and moving to Montana. The transport of the T to its new home was during the winter and you guessed it, no antifreeze. He likes peaky engines and went to the local Montana race engine builder and told them to build an engine. He said it was for his Track T, the race engine builder figured he meant circle track. He never had an issue with hard cornering because with the bias rear tires he had with a broken cord would be scary to corner hard. He built the car to corner but never really did crank and bank. After I replaced the rear tires with radials, cornering was amazing, much better than my 'Vette. Since its build 18 years ago, I was the first one to experiance oil consumption due to hard cornering.
 
Apologies for the verbosity in some posts. Once a preacher, always a preacher I suppose. :hoist:

I've spent years working in the automotive high-performance aftermarket. I spent several years of my life racing from coast to coast and border to... Well, OK I've raced in Canada a handful of times too. I've built engines, I've worked in a race engine shop and I've spent time with one of the most-respected Chevy engine builders in the world.

I learned at a very early age to keep my mouth shut and my eyes and ears open. So it's part of me to learn as much as I can.

I've watched people waste money to make less power. I've watched people destroy extremely expensive pieces through their own ignorance. And I've learned little tricks to make power without spending a lot of money.

I just hope people can benefit from some of my own school of hard knocks experience.
 
Hey Mike....thats the reason why we love ya man! Ha! Heck, this is a experience gettin place here....

If you got a leftyon a TrackT, as long as you don't starve the motor for oil and swallow a bearing....shoud be cool. Like Mike says, theres alot of diff. ways to do things, extended pickups, pivoted pickups, and my favorite all time grandpapy big one....the semi-enclosed-in a boxpickup, looks like a hood scoop in the bottom of the pan, that suppossed to keep oil on the pickup. Yea, buddy.....
 

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