Older 350SBC or LS (5.3L 323ci)

[Slayer]

I'm trying to decide which engine I want. I'd LIKE a BMW V10 or Ford V10 or something similar but that isn't going to happen. After doing a lot of research I've decided to go with a NEW Chevy block and build it up with all new parts. Not aiming for earth shattering power, around 400hp should be good.

I can get a "reconditioned" 350 SBC bare block for $790. This is a 1996 - 2000, 4 bolt main, clearanced for 3.73 stroke with I bean rods, and is 0.030 over. Ready to build, no machining needed.
This would end up either 355 or 383ci. The "Rotating assembly" (Crank,rods, pistons) I'm looking at are rated for up to 500hp.
Parts for this block are plentiful and as far as I can see... relatively cheap.

OR

an IRON LS gen 3 323ci (5.3L) bare block .... NEW... for $350.
IF I go LS I may keep the fuel injection but that adds $$$
OR I could go with a carburetor.

The LS is heavier, smaller capacity.

Remembering these are both bare blocks with NO internals and will need EVERYTHING....

What would you use?

Thanks.

 

[old round fart]

Don’t need much horse power. Buy cheap and spend the bucks on chrome!

 

[Spanky]

Well . . . since you asked, I would go with the 350. I'm kinda old school, and I find that parts availability and wealth of hop-up info for the 350 are a big bonus. The LS platform is the future, no doubt. But I don't want to get on the learning curve this late in life, and my little 350 makes all the HP I can handle.

 

[fletcherson]

The block price isn't the point. Price the heads, intakes, carbs, ignition, etc... if price is a consideration, old school is the hands down choice. A mild built 383 will provide plenty of power for a reasonable investment, imho. LS is great, but parts prices are not cheap and there aren't many used parts available yet as far as speed parts.

 

[Gary49]

I'm trying to decide which engine I want. I'd LIKE a BMW V10 or Ford V10 or something similar but that isn't going to happen. After doing a lot of research I've decided to go with a NEW Chevy block and build it up with all new parts. Not aiming for earth shattering power, around 400hp should be good.

I can get a "reconditioned" 350 SBC bare block for $790. This is a 1996 - 2000, 4 bolt main, clearanced for 3.73 stroke with I bean rods, and is 0.030 over. Ready to build, no machining needed.
This would end up either 355 or 383ci. The "Rotating assembly" (Crank,rods, pistons) I'm looking at are rated for up to 500hp.
Parts for this block are plentiful and as far as I can see... relatively cheap.

OR

an IRON LS gen 3 323ci (5.3L) bare block .... NEW... for $350.
IF I go LS I may keep the fuel injection but that adds $$$
OR I could go with a carburetor.

The LS is heavier, smaller capacity.

Remembering these are both bare blocks with NO internals and will need EVERYTHING....

What would you use?

Thanks.

I got a good deal on a LS1 5.7 with a 4L60 transmission out of a Z28. At first I regretted not going with a earlier small block 350 because I didn't know much about LS1 motors and parts were everywhere for the older motors. Now I'm happy that I stayed with it. An engine wiring harness and programmed computer from Painless made wiring the sensors easy.
The block and heads are aluminum and the intake is composite so I should have a pretty light t bucket when it's done. Still, I wouldn't hesitate going with a regular small block if I was building another T. It's kind of like whatever you get the best deal on but the LS is a little more of a challenge at first.
Good luck with your build,
Gary

 

[Slayer]

The block price isn't the point. Price the heads, intakes, carbs, ignition, etc... if price is a consideration, old school is the hands down choice. A mild built 383 will provide plenty of power for a reasonable investment, imho. LS is great, but parts prices are not cheap and there aren't many used parts available yet as far as speed parts.

Agreed. I did say parts for the older 350 are plentiful and reasonably cheap. Even with the block price being more than twice that of the LS (and recon vs new), it would probably end up a cheaper overall build.

My main concern with an older 350 is - How well (if at all) was it inspected and tested? Crack tested? Pressure tested? Sonic tested for cylinder wall thickness? I'm assuming yes to all, but a phone call when I'm ready to purchase will hopefully give me the answers I want. These are old engines and finding a good block to recond is getting hard. That's why I'm looking at buying a bare block from a reputable source instead of getting a wrecking yard unknown for $250 and end up with junk. Machining costs alone would be more than the cost of the block I'm looking at.

On a related note, I haven't even looked at what transmissions will go with the LS.
For the 350 I'm considering the TH350 or 200r4. I've read conflicting opinions about the 200r4. Some say it's great, others advise to avoid it. Oh well, you pay your money and take your pick. (chances).

 

[Slayer]

I got a good deal on a LS1 5.7 with a 4L60 transmission out of a Z28. At first I regretted not going with a earlier small block 350 because I didn't know much about LS1 motors and parts were everywhere for the older motors. Now I'm happy that I stayed with it. An engine wiring harness and programmed computer from Painless made wiring the sensors easy.
The block and heads are aluminum and the intake is composite so I should have a pretty light t bucket when it's done. Still, I wouldn't hesitate going with a regular small block if I was building another T. It's kind of like whatever you get the best deal on but the LS is a little more of a challenge at first.
Good luck with your build,
Gary

Good deals are hard to come by. Glad you found one.
As for the computer... I haven't even looked into that but I know from other projects that a decent aftermarket EFI computer and harness is going to run $1500+. PLUS all the other hardware... injectors, throttle bodies, etc.
That's why IF I go LS I would probably go with a carb or 2.

I do believe a regular old 350 SBC will be adequate. I was just going with a theme for the build. Old school looks, modern technology. And I can only do this once. There is no chance to redo it later.

Thanks everyone for the input.

 

[old round fart]

Fire has EFI is done into away with need for stock EPU’s.

 

[Indycars]

If you wanted to explore a little deeper into the cost, this Excel spreadsheet would be
easy to modify. Phase 1 could be the SBC and phase 2 could be the LS motor. Just edit
the description to indicate engine parts like intake manifold or water pump and the
Unit Price to reflect your best guess at the cost of each part. Easy to play What If.

You can download the file in the thread below.
Spreadsheet For Tracking Your Machine Shop Costs

For the 350 I'm considering the TH350 or 200r4. I've read conflicting opinions about the 200r4. Some say it's great, others advise to avoid it.

I have the 200-4R and love it! It's really nice to cruise on the highway at 70 mph and the motor is
only turning 1900 rpm. I've spent 6 hours on the highway going to a NTBA event, never got tired
of the hearing the motor turning too fast. Rear gear ratio is 3.7 and rear tires are 31 inches. Yes
there are a few parts that are better changed if you have more than a stock build. I'm pushing 475 hp
and no problems in 10,000 miles, I did spend some money to prepare it for my application. You
have to remember that our TBuckets are much lighter than a regular car and therefore the load on
the transmission is significantly less.

If anyone is interested in the build thread for my 200-4R, just send me a PM.

 

[409T]

I'd use the 350 block and use a crank with a 3.25" stoke (common to the 327) or a 3" stroke (makes a 302). I know, everybody wants to go to a 3.75" stroke to make a 383 which is great for a land yacht but in these light cars, if you want to get away from the light quickly, a short stroke fast response motor is king. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Slayer]

If you wanted to explore a little deeper into the cost, this Excel spreadsheet would be
easy to modify. Phase 1 could be the SBC and phase 2 could be the LS motor. Just edit
the description to indicate engine parts like intake manifold or water pump and the
Unit Price to reflect your best guess at the cost of each part. Easy to play What If.


I have the 200-4R and love it! It's really nice to cruise on the highway at 70 mph and the motor is
only turning 1900 rpm. I've spent 6 hours on the highway going to a NTBA event, never got tired
of the hearing the motor turning too fast. Rear gear ratio is 3.7 and rear tires are 31 inches. Yes
there are a few parts that are better changed if you have more than a stock build. I'm pushing 475 hp
and no problems in 10,000 miles, I did spend some money to prepare it for my application. You
have to remember that our TBuckets are much lighter than a regular car and therefore the load on
the transmission is significantly less.

If anyone is interested in the build thread for my 200-4R, just send me a PM.

Thanks for the input. I have (still am) looking at costs for both options and best way to spread the cost over a period of time. My desk has pieces of paper all over it. Ideally it would be easier to throw down a great lump of cash and get a ready to go crate motor. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how much you like building things...which is me) that is beyond my budget.
I have pretty much decided to go with a stroked 350. Now it's just a matter of selecting exactly which parts. There are so many to choose from.

Your car sounds pretty close to what I'm aiming for. Big(ish) engine, BIG tires, and the ability to cruise long distances in "comfort". The overdrive trans is the way I'm going, for now.
When I actually have the body here I'm going to see if I can squeeze in a third pedal. I know most people say you can't but I'm not ruling out the option yet.

Can't wait to start the build. First order for parts should be in 7 days. 7 long days.

 

[Slayer]

I'd use the 350 block and use a crank with a 3.25" stoke (common to the 327) or a 3" stroke (makes a 302). I know, everybody wants to go to a 3.75" stroke to make a 383 which is great for a land yacht but in these light cars, if you want to get away from the light quickly, a short stroke fast response motor is king. Just my 2 cents.

Interesting idea. Just shows how little I know about V8's. I've always been a 4 cyl guy. I'll do some research on that. Do you have any numbers for HP and torque for that configuration? I know it's hard with so many variables.

 

[fletcherson]

409 has a good point, you can build a high rev small block that will be a hand full. A 283 crank in a 327 block will do it well also. I'm not sure where you are located, but there are still plenty of old sbc out there. Not so much in the bone yards because they deal with the cars being turned over now, but there are guys with stashes of em. Look on private source sites, call local machine shops, swap meets, towing companies, etc... look for un molested parts and plan on machine work for the best result from my experience. The lifter bores are a place to look closely at and are often overlooked if you can't hear it run and see the oil pressure. Look for a old truck or car with a running sbc in it, that will allow you to hear it run, check oil pressure, etc and provide other parts to use or sell off to aid in your build. There are a lot of aftermarket crank and rod choices too. Maybe look into a balanced rotating assembly or the like. I would spend some time looking at options. There are always guys with good engines for sale too. We seem to get bored and like to build new ones, lol... 200 or 700 are good options. They both have room for improvement, but in an 1800 pound car, they won't be under too much stress. Having a budget makes us better builders, imho... anyone can mail order a kit and assemble it if money is no option...well, within reason, but it takes a lot more effort and skill to have to adapt or create stuff. I'm not knocking anyone, we all have our limitations...enjoy it!

 

[Slayer]

409 has a good point, you can build a high rev small block that will be a hand full. A 283 crank in a 327 block will do it well also. I'm not sure where you are located, but there are still plenty of old sbc out there. Not so much in the bone yards because they deal with the cars being turned over now, but there are guys with stashes of em. Look on private source sites, call local machine shops, swap meets, towing companies, etc... look for un molested parts and plan on machine work for the best result from my experience. The lifter bores are a place to look closely at and are often overlooked if you can't hear it run and see the oil pressure. Look for a old truck or car with a running sbc in it, that will allow you to hear it run, check oil pressure, etc and provide other parts to use or sell off to aid in your build. There are a lot of aftermarket crank and rod choices too. Maybe look into a balanced rotating assembly or the like. I would spend some time looking at options. There are always guys with good engines for sale too. We seem to get bored and like to build new ones, lol... 200 or 700 are good options. They both have room for improvement, but in an 1800 pound car, they won't be under too much stress. Having a budget makes us better builders, imho... anyone can mail order a kit and assemble it if money is no option...well, within reason, but it takes a lot more effort and skill to have to adapt or create stuff. I'm not knocking anyone, we all have our limitations...enjoy it!

Ok, a few points.
1)"Look on private source sites, call local machine shops, swap meets, towing companies, etc". Can't be done. I'm basically housebound and can't go looking all over for ... anything. This is going to have to be a mail order car.

2)"plan on machine work for the best result ". This is just adding costs for no gain. I can't afford to buy an unknown block or complete engine and HOPE it's good enough for a rebore. THEN add all the costs of machining.. I can by a block ready to go and know what I'm getting.

3)"Look for a old truck or car with a running sbc in it," ... see #1 above, AND..I'm in an apartment with a 'No working on cars policy' but I have spoken to the manager and been told to go ahead.... but if any other residents complain or even ask what I'm doing I'll need to stop. I don't have space or the ability to buy a junker and strip it.

4)"anyone can mail order a kit and assemble it if money is no option.".. basically this is what I'm doing. I don't weld, the 2 guys who said they would help with welding a frame have pulled out so now I have to go with an off the shelf frame. I hate it but that is how it is. Budget... this is the tightest budget you can have. Only income is a disability pension which pays bills and not much else.

I hear you asking ...so if it's that hard why do it? I'm bored. Always wanted a T Bucket. It's now or never and even if I start now it might (probably) never get even half way finished.
Thing is, I've built too many model airplanes, too many wooden boxes, bowls, etc, I don't play cards with the 'ladies' ..... there is nothing to do. It's driving me nuts.

 

[tfeverfred]

With those limitations, I'd get a ready to run, crate 350 and be done with it.

 

[tdkkart]

With those limitations, I'd get a ready to run, crate 350 and be done with it.

This.....
There's a bazillion places, including General Motors, that will sell you a SBC crate motor for a very reasonable price, WAY cheaper than you can build one, with a warranty.
Buy it, drop it in, and go. A nearly bone stock 350 will give you all the power you will ever need, cheaply and reliably. Throw a bunch of chrome on it and nobody will know if it's a $2000 motor or a $10,000 motor.

 

[Slayer]

This.....
There's a bazillion places, including General Motors, that will sell you a SBC crate motor for a very reasonable price, WAY cheaper than you can build one, with a warranty.
Buy it, drop it in, and go. A nearly bone stock 350 will give you all the power you will ever need, cheaply and reliably. Throw a bunch of chrome on it and nobody will know if it's a $2000 motor or a $10,000 motor.

With all due respect and not meaning to sound like an a-hole, but you are missing the point, and I've spent 6 months researching costs and you can't get a COMPLETE running engine for anywhere near $2000. To get that kind of money together would take many months of sitting on my behind doing nothing, not even buying a magazine to look at. I'd rather end up spending a little more buying a few parts at a time over that same several months but at least have something to do.
The biggest single expenses are 1) Body, 2)Frame, 3)Wheels, 4)Tires. Everything else can be obtained inbetween the large items to keep me busy and the build moving forward.

Next Friday I'll be ordering my first parts. Still undecided what it will be. 1) Body with some money left over, 2)Block - bare or with crank, rods, pistons, bearings., 3)Lots of smaller pieces like suspension parts. I'm leaning heavily towards the Body first because I can do work on it while saving for other parts.

 

[Intrepid]

I would just like to add that building chev 302 or a 327 with just mixing up cranks and blocks is not economical or completely that easy.
This is the issue I recently went through when I found my 283 was seized solid and bought a 327 that needed work to build myself a 302.
Problem is the piston pin height. To get the correct piston pin height the costs go through the roof.
I haven't done the research on the 383 combo but from what I remember the 400 crank is balanced externally and that could add extra cost, not sure on the piston pin height on that combo for costs but it might be something else to research.

 

[Slayer]

I would just like to add that building chev 302 or a 327 with just mixing up cranks and blocks is not economical or completely that easy.
This is the issue I recently went through when I found my 283 was seized solid and bought a 327 that needed work to build myself a 302.
Problem is the piston pin height. To get the correct piston pin height the costs go through the roof.
I haven't done the research on the 383 combo but from what I remember the 400 crank is balanced externally and that could add extra cost, not sure on the piston pin height on that combo for costs but it might be something else to research.

Nothing worth doing is ever easy. Been doing some research and I think I'll stay with a 355 (350 with 0.030 bore) or 383. This will be ample power and good torque. I'm not going to drag the car, it's just a cruiser with a bit of poke when wanted.

Summit racing does a "Rotating assembly" for a 350 to 383. Crank, rods, pistons, bearings. It's fully matched and balanced to +/- 2 grams, ready to go in your old (or new) block. Price is pretty reasonable. Rated to 500hp. Plenty for me.
On the subject of mixing and matching, I'm a little concerned about the need for custom or non standard pushrods. I've only built OHC engines so this is all new to me. I'll deal with this when the need arises.

Thanks everyone for the input. I do appreciate all of it. Any more contributions welcome.

 

[Spanky]

With all due respect and not meaning to sound like an a-hole, but you are missing the point, and I've spent 6 months researching costs and you can't get a COMPLETE running engine for anywhere near $2000.

Check this out. I know it's a 'long block' and not ready to run - needs intake & carb, plus distributor, etc. But . . . those are things you can add as funds become available.
Chevrolet Performance 12530283: 5.7L/350ci L31 Long Block Crate Engine with Vortec Heads for GM Trucks/Vans | JEGS