Single damper

[Gerry]

Hi
I have been looking at dampers (hydraulic) for the front of the Fad. Cant find any maker that can supply one in the size I need. I have asked a few BIG names and they just say cant help or we can make a one off with the customary HIGH price. So I looked at industrial damper because there is no reason they cant work, at least in my mind. Found one company that makes them from 6 inches long to over 3 feet. They are adjustable from 30 N to 1800N and have mechanical stops built in. Sounds like a winner. Now comes the crunch. They are expensive so after looking at two I decided to think about one fixed between the opposite ends of the opposed springs. That is to go right across the front from bell crank to bell crank.


This will mean there is going to be a time when one wheel moves up exactly the same amount as the other one moves down; and the damper does not work. I figure that with the leverage on the bell cranks this is a 1000 to 1 chance.
What do you guys think?
Will one do instead of two?
gerry

 

[2old2fast]

Gerry, I'll jump in here. even though you need to understand I'm no expert. A single shock would probably work, it's aquestion of,how well? i do know that because our frames,etc, are so light [sprung weight] and narrow [long way from spring mounting point to wheel] that getting control of the unsprung weight [wheel,tire brakes etc. ] is difficult. that being said, the only way [shortof a computer sim.] you're going to find out is to try it !? I can't believe that w/all the small cars/motor scoot's running around over there that thier isn't a small shock / shocks that you can adapt. [read CHEAP] any way that's my 2 cents

dave

 

[Gerry]

Gerry, I'll jump in here. even though you need to understand I'm no expert. A single shock would probably work, it's aquestion of,how well? i do know that because our frames,etc, are so light [sprung weight] and narrow [long way from spring mounting point to wheel] that getting control of the unsprung weight [wheel,tire brakes etc. ] is difficult. that being said, the only way [shortof a computer sim.] you're going to find out is to try it !? I can't believe that w/all the small cars/motor scoot's running around over there that thier isn't a small shock / shocks that you can adapt. [read CHEAP] any way that's my 2 cents

dave

Hi Dave.
Good you jumped in here. Any advice/opinions is good, they all get us thinking.
Sorry, but I have been in touch with a number of premier damper makers and they all come up with the same thing. We CAN do it but its a one off and that means set up costs etc. There is always a way a round them if they are not willing to help, hence the industrial shocks I went to. I have been thro the local parts guys (read here one of the biggest in the UK) bins and none of the damper on their shelves are right.
My build buddy says 2 are better but one will work, which we all know, but this is not a normal or typical set up. Between us we have done some radical things on a few cars so your point of trying it to find out is probably a good one.
More input needed.
Gerry

 

[fluidfloyd]

Hi Dave.
Good you jumped in here. Any advice/opinions is good, they all get us thinking.
Sorry, but I have been in touch with a number of premier damper makers and they all come up with the same thing. We CAN do it but its a one off and that means set up costs etc. There is always a way a round them if they are not willing to help, hence the industrial shocks I went to. I have been thro the local parts guys (read here one of the biggest in the UK) bins and none of the damper on their shelves are right.
My build buddy says 2 are better but one will work, which we all know, but this is not a normal or typical set up. Between us we have done some radical things on a few cars so your point of trying it to find out is probably a good one.
More input needed.
Gerry

Gerry,

Try looking for a pair of short nitrogen charged hydraulic shocks and put them inside the springs. I personally think that you have to deal with each wheel separately. To do that you have to dampen and spring each side and isolate the two sides. AFCO shocks will run in any position. There are others that will work but you'll have to do the research. Simpler yet would be to get coil over shocks withe the nitrogen charged dampener. Then it's all nice and compact. Hope this will be of some value to you. Good Luck.

George

 

[Corley]

Seems like the typical place where a single shock would let you down in your configuration is roll on corners. No help there from a single, but then your car looks to not need any help there anyway. BUT, will a single shock look funny inside the coils?

Have you tried King Off-Road Racing shocks? They build custom shocks in just about any configuration, size, and can throw together almost any configuration of ends, gas, orientation, valving, etc. you can think of. There was an article on them in the July/August issue of Sand Sports magazine. I understand their prices are not too bad for very high quality shocks. No, I'm in no way affiliated with them, just read the article... They are at www.kingshocks.com , and may be worth a try...

 

[2old2fast]

Gerry, this thought occured to me,since you seem to have machine capability. If you were to find a rebuildabe shock that was the O.D. that you could use, maybe you could shorten the body and rod as necassary to suit your needs? Just a thought......



dave

 

[Gerry]

Thanks for all the advice.

Heres some answer to you all.

Cant find anyone that makes a damper at 1'' or less diameter, which is whats needed to go inside the springs. Even looked at mountain bike mono shocks for the dampers but been told they would probably blow the seals in a short time.
Looked at a lot of the hi end dampers and they are too rich for my blood and a little bit too fancy.
Wont use coil overs they are just too UGLY and spoil the look of the clean springs. seen a couple of pics of these on opposed coils and hated them on site. No offence to anyone whos running them JMHO
The springs on at the moment are just to find out the rate needed and are way too open in the coils. I will be getting another pair that are wound a lot tighter so you will not see much through them especially it whats there is painted black.

On to the single damper thing. I can see where each wheel would need its own control if each wheel is independent. That is there is NO cross effect between them. And I know solid rear ends use two. However they have springs that are at each end of the axle, unlike the T.
I have a beam axle where the wheels are joined by a solid bar (the axle) so what ever happens to one wheel will have an (some sort of) effect on the other. This is the reason I am considering a single damper.
I dont know if it will work so I posted it to see what you guys think. I could be way wrong here so lets hear from you.
Gerry

 

[old round fart]

I think I would drive it and see how it does. You may be fixing a non-existing problem! I had no shocks on the long car and never had a problem, but then the flex in the frame may have been a factor!

 

[Gerry]

I think I would drive it and see how it does. You may be fixing a non-existing problem! I had no shocks on the long car and never had a problem, but then the flex in the frame may have been a factor!

Good point. But just in case anyone has done this I thought i would ask the question. Someone somewhere must have thought about this.
Gerry

 

[Corley]

Gerry,
It seems like you could easily do disk friction shocks on the pivot for those levers, and no one would see anything at all. (Well, not much anyway...) Friction shocks aren't the best, but they do work... That's where I'd go if it were me...
Corley

 

[leg show T]

Hey! Gerry, I think you're making the right decision with the spring. Closer coils will mean a lesser bounce. Also, you have the friction shocks.


I posted that picture of Eichstedt's car, so you and others could see how beautiful the front-end looked. You happened to be one of those rare

people who loves T-buckets. I also think personally myself incorporating shock absorbers would still make for a beautiful build. Having said that,

Dan drove his car from California to the Nationals in Memphis, Tennessee and back. Plus, he was all over California with the car, so you have

to like hearing that!! Ted, glad to see you back! Bob

 

[Gerry]

Hey! Gerry, I think you're making the right decision with the spring. Closer coils will mean a lesser bounce. Also, you have the friction shocks.


I posted that picture of Eichstedt's car, so you and others could see how beautiful the front-end looked. You happened to be one of those rare

people who loves T-buckets. I also think personally myself incorporating shock absorbers would still make for a beautiful build. Having said that,

Dan drove his car from California to the Nationals in Memphis, Tennessee and back. Plus, he was all over California with the car, so you have

to like hearing that!! Ted, glad to see you back! Bob

I am talking to Danny about the front end as we 'speak'


Also, as you know, the bell cranks do have friction shocks built in to them I was just thinking ahead in case they dont give me the ride I want. Always good to think ahead. Solve the problems before they BITE you.

gerry

 

[VegasBruce]

Ok, I'm seeing with having the friction shocks, this is secondary. What about using two of the mountain bike shock internals, and machining an outer tube with a center mount? It could mount within the coilspring mount. You could beef up the seals at that time also.Just wondering.

 

[Gerry]

Ok, I'm seeing with having the friction shocks, this is secondary. What about using two of the mountain bike shock internals, and machining an outer tube with a center mount? It could mount within the coilspring mount. You could beef up the seals at that time also.Just wondering.

Thats a thought. Not sure i have the knowledge or skill to cut a damper apart and remake it. Think there is some mention of injecting an inert gas before sealing to stop the oil frothing. Maybe i will get an old damper and have a play.
gerry

 

[VegasBruce]

Here you go, it looks kind of simple. Nothing like rocket science.

 

[Gerry]

Here you go, it looks kind of simple. Nothing like rocket science.

Now look what you ve done.
i ve had to bookmark that page so I can study it and build a better one. Yeh right.
Its good info which i can work with
thanks
gerry

 

[VegasBruce]

Well you've built everything else. So a shock shouldn't be to hard. :jester: Besides I can learn from you building one. Great work on the T Gerry.

 

[Keith Bowman]

Hi Gerry,
This is a sorce of general information that i have found usefull Thomas Register Directory (online) a list of manufacturers and suppliers of almost everything in North America. Years ago when they came in print, Busineses would often buy new every year and give the previous years away,i would expect someone within this directory makes some of the shock absorbers for others ! I found a manufacturer that sold me custom length part for wholesale price,it was some time ago.
www.thomasnet.com I went to search custom manufacturing then contract manufacturing #12 found 129 suppliers of shock absorbers there are also other searches to try for shocks! Hope this might help you and others for any number of products. Let me know if it works Thanks, Keith Bowman

 

[Gerry]

Hi Gerry,
This is a sorce of general information that i have found usefull Thomas Register Directory (online) a list of manufacturers and suppliers of almost everything in North America. Years ago when they came in print, Busineses would often buy new every year and give the previous years away,i would expect someone within this directory makes some of the shock absorbers for others ! I found a manufacturer that sold me custom length part for wholesale price,it was some time ago.
www.thomasnet.com I went to search custom manufacturing then contract manufacturing #12 found 129 suppliers of shock absorbers there are also other searches to try for shocks! Hope this might help you and others for any number of products. Let me know if it works Thanks, Keith Bowman

Hi Keith
Thanks for the info. I have checked out and called quite a few manufacturers and they all say the same. I want too small a diameter and too short a length for an off the shelf unit. They can all make them but, at a price.
The only reasonably costing one are the ones made for industrial damping, and they seem to be very well specified. Available in 150mm length and 22mm diameter, they are also adjustable from 30 to 1800 newtons which is about right for my needs.
A lot of the very small dampers are not suitable for a car, or so the makers say.
Gerry