302 water pump
- Thread starter debgeo
- Start date
donsrods
Member
The stock water pumps are all the same length, but Ford makes a special short water pump. I'm installing one right now on the 331 stroker motor I'm building for my 27. Problem is, they are not cheap to do, and also you have to do some work to find the parts. Ford Racing has basically discontinued the parts needed to do the change over, but Summit still has some of the pumps and Jegs still has some of the pumps and the timing cover you need to make the swap. Here is a writeup I just recently did on this subject on another forum:
Any of us who play with Ford small blocks know two things for sure. First of all they cost a lot more to build than a sbc, and secondly they are l- o- n -g! Most of the block is really compact, but it is the timing chain cover and water pump that stick way out there, making swapping them into lots of cars tough.
When I built my 27 roadster way back when I used a 302 Ford, but because there were no short water pump setups that I knew about at the time my pulley to radiator clearance was very tight. Consequently, I had to use a very short electric fan that didn't have many cfms to it. Now that I am redoing the car I decided to cure that problem once and for all by putting on one of the Ford Racing short water pumps that pick up about 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches of room. I thought it would be easy, but Ford threw me a wrench by discontinuing some of the parts needed to make this swap.
I guess Ford has cut back on lots of "old" parts because of their financial situation, and these Ford Racing parts were some of the ones to go. What it takes to make the swap are:
1) The short water pump itself, part number M-8501-E351S about $ 139.00
2) The correct timing cover is part number M-6059-D351 about $ 125.00
3) Pulley set M-8509 Q..............no longer available from Ford.
However, I was determined to end up with a shorter setup, so when I struck out at Summit (they had the water pumps but no timing cover) I called Jegs. Luckily, they had the water pump and timing housing.....I was part way there.
For the pulleys I first called Ford to confirm they were no longer available, and found out they were not. So I called March Mfg. March is right down the road from me in Naples Florida, and they are USELESS! They could care less if they help you or not, and were extremely dry on the phone, like he couldn't be bothered. (I had the same experience with them 2 years ago when trying to convert my Son Don's 306 Ford from serpentine to V belt.) All the guy would say is "Ford discontinued them and we never made them. Goodbye!"
So I called Zoops Products and the guy there was VERY helpful. Turns out they do make the exact pulleys I need for this setup, and here are the part numbers:
1) Water pump pulley, part number 6011, about $ 81.00
2) Crank pulley, part number 6012, about $ 72.00
However, to use the crank pulley you MUST use Ford Racing SFI approved harmonic balancer part number M-6316-C351, about $ 250.00.
After mounting it all up I found that my crank pulley sits 3/16 too far in to line up with the water pump pulley, but the guy at Zoops told me that might happen. Ford has so many variations that Zoops offers several thicknesses of spacers to use, but you have to mount the pulley first to see how far off you are. Tonight I ordered the 3/16 spacer from Zoops @ $ 32.00
So, my short water pump setup ended up costing me about $ 700 so far, and I still haven't gotten my alternator to determine what bracketry I will need to mount it in the new shorter position. Zoops makes those brackets too (Don has one on his 306), so when I get the alternator I'll go from there.
I would caution anyone thinking of doing this to move quickly as the timing covers seem to be getting a little hard to find, but Jegs told me they do have some yet. Summit does not, and Ford Racing does not. I took some pictures of the various components and how the short one compares to the regular Ford setup. I will have to post them in two posts, as this forum only allows 4 images per post.
First of all, here is what the long pump looks like in my Son's T, and the second picture is how the short setup looks in the same profile. His measures 6.25 from water pump flange surface to tip of pulley, and mine measures 4.75. You can also see the misalignment on mine that will require the 3/16 spacer.
Here is my setup, showing the misalignment and the reason I need the spacer installed.
That is as far as I have gotten, but I'm not out of the woods yet. I am running to work, but tonight I'll post some more info and tell you what I am going to have to do to fix this thing.
Don
Any of us who play with Ford small blocks know two things for sure. First of all they cost a lot more to build than a sbc, and secondly they are l- o- n -g! Most of the block is really compact, but it is the timing chain cover and water pump that stick way out there, making swapping them into lots of cars tough.
When I built my 27 roadster way back when I used a 302 Ford, but because there were no short water pump setups that I knew about at the time my pulley to radiator clearance was very tight. Consequently, I had to use a very short electric fan that didn't have many cfms to it. Now that I am redoing the car I decided to cure that problem once and for all by putting on one of the Ford Racing short water pumps that pick up about 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 inches of room. I thought it would be easy, but Ford threw me a wrench by discontinuing some of the parts needed to make this swap.
I guess Ford has cut back on lots of "old" parts because of their financial situation, and these Ford Racing parts were some of the ones to go. What it takes to make the swap are:
1) The short water pump itself, part number M-8501-E351S about $ 139.00
2) The correct timing cover is part number M-6059-D351 about $ 125.00
3) Pulley set M-8509 Q..............no longer available from Ford.
However, I was determined to end up with a shorter setup, so when I struck out at Summit (they had the water pumps but no timing cover) I called Jegs. Luckily, they had the water pump and timing housing.....I was part way there.
For the pulleys I first called Ford to confirm they were no longer available, and found out they were not. So I called March Mfg. March is right down the road from me in Naples Florida, and they are USELESS! They could care less if they help you or not, and were extremely dry on the phone, like he couldn't be bothered. (I had the same experience with them 2 years ago when trying to convert my Son Don's 306 Ford from serpentine to V belt.) All the guy would say is "Ford discontinued them and we never made them. Goodbye!"
So I called Zoops Products and the guy there was VERY helpful. Turns out they do make the exact pulleys I need for this setup, and here are the part numbers:
1) Water pump pulley, part number 6011, about $ 81.00
2) Crank pulley, part number 6012, about $ 72.00
However, to use the crank pulley you MUST use Ford Racing SFI approved harmonic balancer part number M-6316-C351, about $ 250.00.
After mounting it all up I found that my crank pulley sits 3/16 too far in to line up with the water pump pulley, but the guy at Zoops told me that might happen. Ford has so many variations that Zoops offers several thicknesses of spacers to use, but you have to mount the pulley first to see how far off you are. Tonight I ordered the 3/16 spacer from Zoops @ $ 32.00
So, my short water pump setup ended up costing me about $ 700 so far, and I still haven't gotten my alternator to determine what bracketry I will need to mount it in the new shorter position. Zoops makes those brackets too (Don has one on his 306), so when I get the alternator I'll go from there.
I would caution anyone thinking of doing this to move quickly as the timing covers seem to be getting a little hard to find, but Jegs told me they do have some yet. Summit does not, and Ford Racing does not. I took some pictures of the various components and how the short one compares to the regular Ford setup. I will have to post them in two posts, as this forum only allows 4 images per post.
First of all, here is what the long pump looks like in my Son's T, and the second picture is how the short setup looks in the same profile. His measures 6.25 from water pump flange surface to tip of pulley, and mine measures 4.75. You can also see the misalignment on mine that will require the 3/16 spacer.
Here is my setup, showing the misalignment and the reason I need the spacer installed.
That is as far as I have gotten, but I'm not out of the woods yet. I am running to work, but tonight I'll post some more info and tell you what I am going to have to do to fix this thing.
Don
donsrods
Member
Ok, home from work, so here is the rest of the story. I got the spacer from Zoops but it is not exactly right. It is made for a 351 WIndsor application, not the 302 engine. It is the right thickness but it has a protrusion that is made to slip into the stock Ford harmonic balancer. I am going to have that lip turned down a little in diameter so it will fit my balancer. I paid $ 250 for it and don't want to change it now.
I plan on working on the alternator and other bracketry now so I will post some additional info when I do that. BTW, there is also a Snow White kit that uses something like an Opel waterpump to shorten things up, but I decided to go this route instead and really know nothing about that assembly or how it works.
Don
Oh, here are a couple more pictures of how it looks installed. I lost about an inch and a half to an inch and three quarters with this setup.
I plan on working on the alternator and other bracketry now so I will post some additional info when I do that. BTW, there is also a Snow White kit that uses something like an Opel waterpump to shorten things up, but I decided to go this route instead and really know nothing about that assembly or how it works.
Don
Oh, here are a couple more pictures of how it looks installed. I lost about an inch and a half to an inch and three quarters with this setup.
I do not know how this cross references with the excellent info from Don, but my son bought a Ford crate engine. It came with the short water pump, which would not work with his pulley setup. I was told the short water pump was from an Explorer with a 302 engine and I gave it to a relative with that vehicle. I did not remember changing out the timing cover, but may have used the one from the original engine. My point is the parts may be available from a donor Explorer.
I am thinking the pump is also reverse rotation from a v belt.
I am thinking the pump is also reverse rotation from a v belt.
donsrods
Member
I suspect you are right. Ford Racing treats that pump like it is something special, but I have thought the same thing about an Explorer. I did notice the timing cover that is "special" to this swap had a totally different part number stamped inside it than on the box, so Ford was relabeling these. I didn't think to write down that part number before I put the cover on the engine though.
Don
Don
Don, I recall you are running a Ford roller cam. I see in the pics you have a Mallory distributor. Did the distributor come with a compatable gear for the steel cam or did you have to up grade it? I want to use the Mallory unit in the present 302 with a flat tappet cam in the roller motor I am planning. I have not contacted Mallory, but was hoping they had a gear I could swap for the roller cam.
donsrods
Member
You know, when we put the engine together we never gave that a thought, but I guess it is ok because we have since pulled out and inspected not only the distributor in my Son's roller cam 302, but also the one in my roller cam 350 and neither one shows any signs of wear after 2 years of driving. Good point though because I am trying to put all the right pieces in the 331 stroker so I am going to research whatever distributor I end up with for that one to make sure it has the right gear on it.
Don
Don
fordsbyjay
Active Member
Don I am not sure I understand why it is you need the new timing cover. I have used both short systems and never had to purchase that particular timing cover.
Both pumps are available from Stewart Components here. I did use the Ford pulleys and they are not very impressive so if you found an alternative that is probably better. I used the stock 92 5.0 timing cover for this car and had no problems. I also used the stock 289 alternator bracket and just made a new spacer for the change in length.
Here is a couple pics of this setup in my 56 Ford.
The other factory short pump was used on the 94-94 Mustang 5.0l. I am not sure if it was used on the Explorer as well. This is a Reverse rotation pump and it is the only water pump specific timing cover I now about. It is drastically different from the normal Ford timing cover and has no boss for a fuel pump. I bought a used timing cover from ebay for $40, a pump from Stewart components and pulleys from March Performance. I made my own bracket for the alternator. I went this route on my Falcon because I want to add A/C in the future so I was planning ahead.
Stewart told me they are the ones that made the Ford short pump so you might want to call them. They use a stock cast housing for their stage 1 pumps and have their own impeller with a higher flow rate. They are also cheaper than the Ford pump.
Both pumps are available from Stewart Components here. I did use the Ford pulleys and they are not very impressive so if you found an alternative that is probably better. I used the stock 92 5.0 timing cover for this car and had no problems. I also used the stock 289 alternator bracket and just made a new spacer for the change in length.
Here is a couple pics of this setup in my 56 Ford.
The other factory short pump was used on the 94-94 Mustang 5.0l. I am not sure if it was used on the Explorer as well. This is a Reverse rotation pump and it is the only water pump specific timing cover I now about. It is drastically different from the normal Ford timing cover and has no boss for a fuel pump. I bought a used timing cover from ebay for $40, a pump from Stewart components and pulleys from March Performance. I made my own bracket for the alternator. I went this route on my Falcon because I want to add A/C in the future so I was planning ahead.
Stewart told me they are the ones that made the Ford short pump so you might want to call them. They use a stock cast housing for their stage 1 pumps and have their own impeller with a higher flow rate. They are also cheaper than the Ford pump.
fordsbyjay
Active Member
One other note. I used a 3 bolt 50 oz balancer from Total Performance in Flint Mi with the regular rotation deal. I did not need any spacers for this balancer. The second deal I used a balancer from Professional Products and it had a dual bolt pattern on it. There is a spacer needed with this unit.
Hope this helps.
Hope this helps.
fordsbyjay
Active Member
I know this is an old thread but I recently found someone that makes the pulleys needed for the Ford short street rod pump. Ford racing quite making them some time ago so I am glad someone else stepped up.
http://www.cvfracing.com/ford-pulley-selection
http://www.cvfracing.com/ford-tech/ford-water-pumps
http://www.cvfracing.com/ford-pulley-selection
http://www.cvfracing.com/ford-tech/ford-water-pumps
fordsbyjay
Active Member
One more update on this old thread. I found another place that makes pulleys for the short pumps.
http://www.runne-rite.com/Pulley_Kits.html
They also have 3 bolt 50 oz balancers as well.
http://www.runne-rite.com/Dampers_Harmonic Balancers.html
http://www.runne-rite.com/Pulley_Kits.html
They also have 3 bolt 50 oz balancers as well.
http://www.runne-rite.com/Dampers_Harmonic Balancers.html
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