Here to learn? or just to show off nice work?

[Ted Brown]

I am a bit disappointed with some folks on these different T Bucket forums... I always thought we were all here to learn, things about doing nice clean work, and correct ways of building different parts for the chassis and the whole car... I realize that there are many ways one can fab different parts, to make them look different and zoomie, but there is also a factory correct way of mounting some of their parts, no matter how we make them look, they still should work the same to be structurally correct.
So, I find that some here do not take it well (as a personal hit) if someone brings something to their attention that is not finished or just not quite correct... Any thing brought to their attention is not saying that their work is bad, but many here need to learn how to do things correctly, and that is why they are here, I would think... If you are here to only show off their work and not want any true comments about their work, then what is the use of posting in a forum in the first place??? I thought it was a learning place??? So, just to pat everyone on the back for every post, whether it is good or bad, is not being a good teacher, or even a help to all the others that are here to learn, and I think there are many... I would like some feed back on this subject to know if I am totally off base... What do you think??? Take the bad with the good, well nothing is BAD per say, but correct lets many different parts live a longer and safer in the long run, yes?

 

[Allen]

A'M with you on this one!!

 

[putz]

Agreed Ted safety and saving people money and extra work is why we are here. To help those of us that have had much mechanical background.JMO

 

[Mike]

Ted, I hope the majority of people are here to learn. That was one of the primary reasons for establishing this site.

But one thing I've learned at H.K.U. (Hard Knocks University) is there are always a few different ways to skin the same cat. And the majority of those ways are acceptable ways to accomplish the same end.

Here's an example of what I mean. A few days back, you mentioned stacking steel shim head gaskets to get maximum compression and minimal detonation. That old trick will work, no question about it. I clearly remember using that trick before gasket technology became what it is today. But, that was then and this is now. Why not calculate compression ratio while selecting parts and machining them and then installing the proper composition gasket at the time of assembly? Sure, you can stack a pair of 0.019" steel shim head gaskets to come up with a 0.038" gasket thickness. But I can just install a 0.039" thick composition head gasket when I assemble the engine, because I've spent the time to figure compression ratio and I know it needs that thick a gasket to be safe. No trial and error required. And I won't none of that sticky, gooey stuff you're smearing all over those steel shim gaskets, trying to make a composition gasket seal, either. We both ended up in the same place, but I got there ahead of you, because i didn't have to knock the cylinder heads off a second time. Both techniques will work, but why work harder when you can work smarter?

As a quick aside, adding one 0.019" thick head gasket to another will not drop compression ratio one point. That's a really stray rule of thumb for some unknown combination with a very large swept volume. A standard bore 350, with a 76 cc cylinder head, 11.4 cc's of piston volume and 0.015" of deck clearance will net 11.00:1 compression ratio with a 0.019" thick head gasket. Add a second gasket and you drop CR to 10.45. Barely half a point. If we use a piston with that same volume, that same head and that much deck clearance in a standard bore 400, a 0.19" head gasket will net us 12.38:1. Add a second 0.019" gasket and we net 11.75:1. Make that same change to a standard bore 283 and you only drop from 9.11:1 to 8.69:1. Do that same modification to a standard bore 454 and you still only drop .78 of a point of compression. So your all-inclusive statement that adding a second steel shim head gasket would drop a point of compression was simply not correct.

And I know, you think you can hear detonation and wheel back to the shop to knock the cylinder heads off to add another head gasket. But I'm telling you that your engine already had elevated cylinder temperatures, long before you heard it detonating. As cylinder temperatures continue rising, thin spots on the piston start overheating. As those areas get to a point where they are trying to ignite incoming fuel before the plug lights up, then you start creating two, separate shockwaves in the cylinder. As those pre-ignition waves start happening earlier and earlier, because the piston is getting hotter and hotter, the problem finally progresses to a point where you can hear it detonating. The entire reason you can finally hear it detonating is because a serious problem is getting worse. How many pistons have you back-sided? What you ~thought~ you saw at the finish line was the result of what had actually been happening since the starting line.

I hope you don't think I am trying to single you out, but this all came from a discussion topic where you just weren't doing a very good job of teaching anyone the proper way of doing things. You were making generalizations, rather than conveying facts. You were making assumptions about engine conditions you don't fully understand.

So whilst hoping this is a learning place, I hope the people doing the teaching are teaching facts and not just opinions. When you tell someone with a small bore engine they can drop a point of compression by adding 0.019" of head gasket thickness, that is incorrect. When you tell someone to assemble an engine and take it our for what can be a damaging test drive, to determine if they "guessed' right on what head gasket to use, you're teaching someone a backward method of engine assembly. All of that could have been replaced by simply linking that person to an online compression ratio calculator. Like this one, or this one, or this one. And to be quite honest, I think you're sharp enough to want to work smarter, rather than harder, so use all the tools available to you and assemble an engine one time, instead of playing musical head gaskets.

I can teach that 1+1 is close to about 3, but that isn't being a good teacher, is it? We can argue that 2 is almost 3 until the cows come home, but the correct answer is 1+1 is 2. Every time. Because close only counts in hand grenades and hydrogen bombs. Oh yes, close also counts in pregnancies. :winkn:

 

[Youngster]

I've found it's not so much what you say as how you convey it. After spending a couple years on building a T, the last thing someone wants to hear is "You did that wrong." There are a lot of things I notice here that I don't agree with but as long as it's not a safety issue I can't see making the builder feel.like he has missed the mark. Let's face it, most of the real tech discucions here are about theory. We are not automotive engineers for the most part. It's more a monkey see, monkey do type of thing. These lttle cars are pretty forgiving when it comes to theory. If we where to build all of them the same then we might as well go out and buy a new Mustang.

I have learned alot from your posts here Ted, but that's not to say I agree with all you put out here,and that's OK. I'm sure there are those here that don't agree with me and that's OK too. This is about sharing information as I see it. Even something poorly built can be fodder for a new approach to a problem. Just my $.02.

Ron

 

[Mike]

Well said, Ron. :thumb:

 

[Old Rotor Flap]

I can identify two factors that have contributed to my own form of paranoia regarding safety - an area that I see as needing more discussion. Though admittedly I don't have answers and the T-Bucket by design doesn't lend itself to major changes.

Factor one. I'm old and while I admit there is a certain amount of risk in being alive, I'd like to become older. The second factor is my daily driver, a Subaru Outback and while it's an old 2003, I feel relatively safe in this car (tapping head with knuckles).... knock on wood.

Let me address two areas of a build that I am concerned with and those are fuel tanks and steering columns.

Those spun aluminum tanks hanging out back have virtually no intergrity in a rear end accident. Mounting tail lights right there is a source of ignition in that accident and there is no firewall between you and that tank. No, I don't have a quick fix. I'd like to see a fuel cell inside one of these good looking tanks, but I don't have the dollars to create one and I'm not sure what I'll do on my garage potato....oops, project. LED tail light actually have a greater electrical potential unless reguated to low voltage well up stream on the rear of the car and still it ain't perfect.

The other is steering columns and it's the thread on NEHR steering boxes where I've commented. In essence, don't have a single shaft from the box to your chest even if cushioned (for two tenths of a second) by a deep dish steering wheel.

I try to think in terms of survivabiity and to a limited degree, try to design to that end. Of course, the end I should be concentrating on is getting the darn thing done and out onto the road.

 

[Rick]

I can identify two factors that have contributed to my own form of paranoia regarding safety - an area that I see as needing more discussion. Though admittedly I don't have answers and the T-Bucket by design doesn't lend itself to major changes.

Factor one. I'm old and while I admit there is a certain amount of risk in being alive, I'd like to become older. The second factor is my daily driver, a Subaru Outback and while it's an old 2003, I feel relatively safe in this car (tapping head with knuckles).... knock on wood.

Let me address two areas of a build that I am concerned with and those are fuel tanks and steering columns.

Those spun aluminum tanks hanging out back have virtually no intergrity in a rear end accident. Mounting tail lights right there is a source of ignition in that accident and there is no firewall between you and that tank. No, I don't have a quick fix. I'd like to see a fuel cell inside one of these good looking tanks, but I don't have the dollars to create one and I'm not sure what I'll do on my garage potato....oops, project. LED tail light actually have a greater electrical potential unless reguated to low voltage well up stream on the rear of the car and still it ain't perfect.

The other is steering columns and it's the thread on NEHR steering boxes where I've commented. In essence, don't have a single shaft from the box to your chest even if cushioned (for two tenths of a second) by a deep dish steering wheel.

I try to think in terms of survivabiity and to a limited degree, try to design to that end. Of course, the end I should be concentrating on is getting the darn thing done and out onto the road.

I agree that the forum lends it self to a ton of ideas from all people and as long as its safe take from that and build your version.With that said....Trying to re-engineer something that has worked for 50 some years is goin to far as of yet i have not heard of anyone being impaled on a steering shaft.Lets go one step further and put crumple zones all over the car so if we get hit we can walk away.Or how about air bags.Come on guys.The car in it self is unsafe if we get hit so i guess you take your chanes when you build one.As for the engine thing i agree with Mike do it once and fagetaboutit.My .010

 

[409T]

I agree that the forum lends it self to a ton of ideas from all people and as long as its safe take from that and build your version.With that said....Trying to re-engineer something that has worked for 50 some years is goin to far as of yet i have not heard of anyone being impaled on a steering shaft.Lets go one step further and put crumple zones all over the car so if we get hit we can walk away.Or how about air bags.Come on guys.The car in it self is unsafe if we get hit so i guess you take your chanes when you build one.As for the engine thing i agree with Mike do it once and fagetaboutit.My .010

Well put Rick.

 

[RocknT]

For me this is the first car I ever tried to build .. or well modify in the end ,, I knew nothing about how to wire one , how to set up the steering , how to set up suspension , ect ect . With ""all"" the different way's to do the same thing I felt fortunate that I could pick what would work for me ,, I don't post how to do anything because I don't have the experience to do so . But I read and watch look close at the builds and the pictures posted and for that I feel safer in my car than I did on my Motorcycle.
For that I thank ALL the guy's on here that submit their way's of doing things .

 

[Gerry]

This is a really contentious thing

We all post stuff up. We all offer an opinion.
But we are merely people with an opinion. For the readers, we offer an opinion, not an ultimate answer. They take from it what the can and if they are sensible they ask more questions. I have seen some horror stories over my time here. Things I would never do and things I would never get in and drive BUT and its a big BUT, if we become the government then we have to tell everyone how to do it, assuming we have a better understanding of their goals and requirement than they do.

I always loved hot rods for their very nature. Individuality.

My only prerequisite is
Would I be happy if my wife took the T out for a run, and would she come back safe and sound. The answer to that is YES


The old ways are not always a bad way. We can try and can teach the young uns basics that have been forgotten and lost. Yep we can all short cut stuff these days, I have been guilty of it as many of you have, but gives us a break.
Funny thing is for all the computer programs etc, my friends sons, who runs Rice rockets with phenomenal performance still come to me for the basics... guess what- they dont understand the elements of theory. They can input numbers in to a spreadsheet and get an answer. They dont have the years of playing an fiddling that count. If the computer says yes it MUST be right. (sorry guys we have seen from the posts on IE that ant true)

Take from this what you want. I am on no ones side here, just putting up my opinion.
Please feel free to shoot me down. Thats the way we learn

Gerry

 

[2old2fast]

Most of the time here I try to operate under "if you can't say anything nice,don't say anything at all" W/that being said, I usually try to persuade people to do things safely,w/good functionality . Some may be a little thin skinned , they need to get over that and realize that is always someone who is sharper, has more experience, has more talent, than themselves.ME INCLUDED. However some of us have been at this car stuff for 1/2 a century, and by no means, are we trying to lead anyone astray. In the final analysis, all we have to leave [or offer] is the knowledge & sometimes opinions we possess, so you younger or less experienced guys , listen up, we're not trying to pull your chain or make you feel inadequate. I only wish that this forum had been around 16 yrs. ago when I started building, I would have done some things differently and saved myself a helluva bunch of time.

dave

rant over

 

[Mike]

Please feel free to shoot me down.

That's me, first in. :rifle:

Sorry, Gerry, I had to do it.

I don't see the issue as necessarily being so contentious. Everyone has their own ways of doing things. I watch my son tie his bootlaces and I cannot figure how he does it. But he ends up with them tied, all the same. Even though it looks like he is tying those laces the wrong way, there's nothing wrong with the result.

There are safe ways to do things, there are less-than-safe ways to do things and there are some downright scary ways to do things. I'm not sure of the topic ORF was referencing in his comments about steering shafts, but I understand where he's coming from. It's easy for a nearly horizontal shaft to turn into a spear in frontal impact. Sure, by it's very nature, a T-Bucket presents more risk of injury than a commercial automobile. But there's nothing to be gained by taking unnecessary risks, either.

And I don't think it's a case of having old ways and new ways of doing things. Sometimes, the oldest ways still make a lot of sense. Other times, advancing technology has provided us with better techniques. But in every instance, whether it is an old way, a new way, a fast way or a favorite way, I think we need to ask ourselves if it is the safest way. No matter how much fun a T-Bucket might be, they aren't worth being unnecessarily injured. Or worse.

When we were assembling our '94 race car, a pal was also assembling his Top Alcohol Dragster. We were having fits drilling the splined adapter and splined shaft on the steering box, to fit a roll pin. He scoffed at us for wasting our time, as the shaft already had a collar welded to it to keep it from spearing the driver. A few months later, he left the starting line, went into hard tire shake, the steering shaft turned into a writhing snake and the adapter slipped off the steering box. He pedaled the car to get the shake under control and then drove into the retaining wall, since he had no steering. Yes, that steering shaft was harder than nails, but the few extra minutes we spent with it meant he was the one front-halving his car, instead of us. It was a painful and expensive lesson for him to learn. I don't like people having to learn either kind of lesson.

 

[Don'tCallMeJimmie]

Old Rotor Flap,

If it is a big concern, you can re-purpose a racing column like one from Sweet. They aren't terribly expensive and have a telescoping section for exactly that reason - safety.

I'm considering one for my bucket as it it's already chock-full of circle-track stuff. Keeps with the theme, sorta.

You could source one from lefthanderchassis.com. Even it that doesn't interest you, I find all sorts of ideas just from browsing racing parts catalogs. It's better'n porn. :jester:

Those hubs and axles in my avatar are part of my bucket. Winters Racing 2.5" Grand National rear axle.

 

[Keeper]

If it was not for this site, I would be no where near where I am. I come here to learn, but also to share things I have done.

I have been hit on a couple, I have grinded off welded parts on the recommendation of folks that have been doing this for a hell of alot longer then me!

But I also hope some of the things I have done or tried can help someone else out. Only time I have been miffed at someones comments, was when my project was labeled a "rat rod". That just pissed me off! (This was on another site)

Other then that, I will take the criticism as long as its constructive, if someone just drops a negative comment with out any sort of explanation, I just ignore it.

 

[Allen]

One thing that is real nice nowadays is that you can buy almost any part from somebody that's a professional for not a whole lot of money. And we have guys here on this site that makes some pretty nice stuff. On the head gasket thing, I'm thinking Ted was just kidding around. Hard to beat the looks of his car, especially some of his first work. All works of art. jmh

 

[ruggs]

This thread is long overdue. IMO what it all comes down to is that when you don't totaly understand something, research all you can (like this site) , weed out what you don't believe and then live with what you picked. There is more than one way to most anyplace, some are just longer. I hope everyone sees this thread as it was intended...ruggs

 

[Ted Brown]

Thanks for a great discussion on this subject, everyone's comments were well said... I try and limit my "I would change this" to things that I have had to change/fix for customers and new folks on things that would not have broken if they had been done different in the first place... Some times it has been at great expense, in both time and money and sometimes pain as well... SO: If I happen to mention something about a part that is already done, it is meant in good spirit, to try and save maybe the same situation...

I just got back from eye lid surgery, so hard to see real clear at the moment, hopefully later I will see more light , in more ways than one

 

[jmr122848]

To all the experienced and opinionated guys who post here

Thanks!! :tip:

 

[Differen T]

To all the experienced and opinionated guys who post here

Thanks!! :tip:

My project name says it all "Differen T". Based on a lack of comments on my project and only a few posts on my part for various reasons my expectations were confirmed. I have a "fringe" project compared to the "normal" project on this site. I have had the good fortune to have had contact with Ted Brown, which may surprise some of you, as we are quite divergent on the types of Ts we favor. We each built our first T for the same reason, it was and is the least expensive way to have a street rod. As I read this thread I have seen that there is more independent thinking here than one thinks when reading most threads.

I want to sit in my T, I also want to have some steel around me, how about LED lights too, and a collapsible steering column, maybe fuel injection and a fuel cell, a stretched body with adjustable seats, steering column and instrument pod, power steering and brakes and most of all IFS. I want a street rod that is very drivable, rides well with decent handling and is reasonably fast, but still gets great mileage and did not totally blow the retirement account.

Like any good project it has taken longer than expected, broken the budget and there are things I would do differently. But even with the differences in my project I have been able to learn from this site and prevent problems and improve my project. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, but real construction safety issues are the responsibility of those of us who see them to offer our suggestions for creating the problems.

Oh yeah, I grind welds too, but I've welded them expecting to grind them. The material used in the weld filler has a higher strength than the mild steel being welded and you can grind off excessive material on a weld that has proper penetration.

We need to have open minds and share our experiences to build the street rods of the 21st century.

Al