Hit a wall before I even started

[Eddie]

Hi, new guy here. I've just talked to the people at DMV (Arizona) about the procedure for getting a VIN, title and registration for a T bucket. I got 2 answers.

1) IF I use all genuine parts from a 1923 car(s) AND have the copy of all dismantle certificates it can be done and is classed as a 1923 rebuilt car ... they issue a new VIN.

2) If I use reproduction parts (frame, suspension, etc) it is classed as a 2017 new construction and must meet all 2017 safety and emissions standards. Meaning, crumple zones, side intrusion bars, airbags, etc, and 2017 emissions.. catalytic converters, noise levels...

So basically it can't be done.

Guess I'll just sit and watch TV.

 

[dwsatt21]

Eddie - I doubt you got the actual truth on this one. I'm not familiar with Arizona laws but I'm sure there are plenty of people who have built one and got it titled without all original parts. PA for example, where I live, has specific laws for street rods that title it as a current year but do not require all the stuff you said. I'm sure there is someone in this group that is familiar with AZ laws...

 

[hulkamania]

I have customers in Arizona that got their cars registered. With our kits your get an Arkansas title.

 

[Eddie]

UPDATE.
After spending 2 hours on the phone I have more info.
DMV are useless. They know nothing. (Like we didn't already know that)
Motor Vehicle Enforcement and Inspection ... the 4 city offices have a message "Due to high volume of calls we no longer answer the phone" followed by ... disconnect, end call.
After more calls to DMV I got another number to try.
Motor Vehicle Enforcement and Inspection outside the city. Much more helpful. So.....

It seems (yet to be confirmed) that my build would be classed as a new build and I'd be given a VIN.
Car would need a level 3 inspection, which I assumed was the case.
As for emissions, still unclear.

So, I have 1 more call to make which should be the final and accurate details.

Worse case, I have it titled in another state (not sure how I'd do that. Would I have to ship the car to that state?).
This means I'd actually be buying a USED CAR.

 

[Gerry]

So, you guys are getting the same kind of crap we have had for the last 10years in the UK. Sucks, don't it.

 

[fordsbyjay]

For states that don't have SEMA laws they do some crazy stuff. In Louisiana it is titled as an assembled vehicle of that year (ie 2017). There is no safety or emission bs. The state troopers do an inspection to verify the engine and transmission serial numbers are not from a stolen vehicle. That is it. If you were to start an assembly line and make 500 cars that is a whole different ball of wax.

I found most DMV people are complete tards and a simple drivers license renewal is a challenge. If you don't get the answer you want keep going to different places till you find someone that either knows or simply is tard enough to just do it. I had to do all my stuff through the main state branch in Baton Rouge. They were the most knowledgeable but also asked the most questions.

 

[fletcherson]

I concur on the dmv being difficult and useless. I spent five hours trying to get a simple answer related to a reinstatement fee to determine wether or not to hire a lawyer and fight a citation that my daughter got as a result of an accident, being a minor, they were going to suspend her license. They are basically a tax acceptance agency. Anyways, can you buy an out of state car, or title, and build it and convert to az title? You are close to California, I've heard horror stories... good luck! Hope you can work it out and build your machine.

 

[Eddie]

Thanks everyone for the support and encouragement.

The guy I need to talk to was unavailable today so I'll try tomorrow.

On the positive side, it's looking more doable than the first person I spoke with lead me to believe. It's not my nature to just accept the first or even second answer I get. If there is a way to do something I'll usually find it, but I may not accept all the hoop jumping. In this case, the T Bucket build, I'm feeling reasonably sure things will get sorted out and not be as bad as they seemed. Sorry if I sounded like I was spitting the dummy earlier.

 

[Intrepid]

In Canada ,, well Ontario law anyway ..a custom is treated as a kit car .. a kit car is treated as an import.

 

[mountainman]

http://www.semasan.com/semaga/TagTitleToolbox_AZ.pdf
Try this......

Also other info if you google "SEMA streetrod laws arizona"

 

[Spanky]

One of our customers came by today and his trailer and tbucket was stolen from his home this weekend. The police recovered his trailer in Missouri and it was torched but no sign of the tbucket. If you see this tbucket please give us a call here at the shop 870-425-5900 or contact your local law enforcement office.

Let's face it: jerks like those who do this stuff cause states to make some weird laws to try and catch the thieves, and one result is the gobbledygook we have to put up with to make our cars legal.

 

[Eddie]

I just wrote a long post and then deleted it.

What it comes down to is this...

All the info on the internet, no matter where it comes from, is useless if the people (DMV) who issue VINs, Titles and registration haven't got a clue.
I've spoken to 4 people at the main Arizona DMV office and no-one knows what is needed to title a T Bucket (or any "kit car"). I've been given answers from "It must meet all 2017 safety standards" to "It should just need a level 1 inspection because you are not driving it, it's only for static display"... until I told her ..No, it's a drivable car... at which time I was put on hold for 27 minutes and I finally hung up and called someone else.

I still have not contacted the one person who should know about this issue. I will be calling again today. Hope he is in the office.

Anyway, it's going to be at least 2 years before I have the T built and I'm ready to title it. By then I'm sure the rules will have changed.
In the meantime, still researching parts and options. Should have a build plan finalized by the end of the month. Then I have to wait until I move before I can start building.

 

[409T]

I just registered a T-bucket for the first time in Arizona and had no trouble. It is titled as a 1923 Ford, took about 45 min. I wouldn't try to do this over the phone any more than I would try to take swimming lessons over the phone. Build the car, take it to inspection with every receipt that you can find and you will be fine.

 

[Eddie]

I just registered a T-bucket for the first time in Arizona and had no trouble. It is titled as a 1923 Ford, took about 45 min. I wouldn't try to do this over the phone any more than I would try to take swimming lessons over the phone. Build the car, take it to inspection with every receipt that you can find and you will be fine.

That's great for you. Glad it was so easy. Was this in the metro area or somewhere else? When I'm told by the people who should know that a T Bucket is a new construction and will be registered as a 2017 vehicle, a 'new construction' must meet 2017 safety standards, and a level 3 inspection will take 3 hours or more AND they don't make appointments so it could be an all day wait AND they no longer answer the phone because they are too busy... AND no-one knows what the standards are .... doesn't give me a feeling of confidence to go ahead and spend thousands of dollars.

I'm almost sure that you, and others, are correct and it should be a simple procedure but we are dealing with a government department here. Need I say more?

I still haven't been able to contact the person I was referred to, it was his day off Friday.

 

[butch27]

Just got back from scottsdale Goodguys. There are plenty of Buckets out there.

 

[mountainman]

That's great for you. Glad it was so easy. Was this in the metro area or somewhere else? When I'm told by the people who should know that a T Bucket is a new construction and will be registered as a 2017 vehicle, a 'new construction' must meet 2017 safety standards, and a level 3 inspection will take 3 hours or more AND they don't make appointments so it could be an all day wait AND they no longer answer the phone because they are too busy... AND no-one knows what the standards are .... doesn't give me a feeling of confidence to go ahead and spend thousands of dollars.

I'm almost sure that you, and others, are correct and it should be a simple procedure but we are dealing with a government department here. Need I say more?

I still haven't been able to contact the person I was referred to, it was his day off Friday.

In reference to the above hi-lited phrases, keep digging until you find the person who DOES know. Don't assume that everyone in a DMV office knows any of the statutes pertaining to your build. Most are trained to repeat the same procedure over and over. Ask about something unfamiliar and they will not admit they haven't a clue. They will try to impress you with a B.S. answer like you quoted above. Too many builders before you have been successful in registering their cars for you to give up that easily.

 

[Eddie]

In reference to the above hi-lited phrases, keep digging until you find the person who DOES know. Don't assume that everyone in a DMV office knows any of the statutes pertaining to your build. Most are trained to repeat the same procedure over and over. Ask about something unfamiliar and they will not admit they haven't a clue. They will try to impress you with a B.S. answer like you quoted above. Too many builders before you have been successful in registering their cars for you to give up that easily.

Thanks for the encouragement. In a previous post I said...
It's not my nature to just accept the first or even second answer I get. If there is a way to do something I'll usually find it, but I may not accept all the hoop jumping. In this case, the T Bucket build, I'm feeling reasonably sure things will get sorted out and not be as bad as they seemed.

The one person in AZ who should know the procedure is very hard to get ahold of. I've looked at all the info on the web BEFORE I registered at this forum. That's why I was so surprised when I was told the incorrect information from DMV. The issue is things like this... (Re: Inspection) "...to determine that the vehicle is properly equipped for highway use". No-one can tell me what that means. As one person stated 'It's a 2017 car so must have all the 2017 safety standards. Airbags, antilock brakes,...'. Now, (side note) as far as I know there is no LAW that states you must have airbags.
The thing I want to know is.... according to the people who issue the title, what is "properly equipped for highway use"? Do I need windshield wipers (no), turn signals (perhaps), fenders (I think in AZ ..Yes), seat belts ?, Hi/low beam headlights ?,.......

The other issue is there is no title. Again, according to info on the web,.. BEFORE the inspection I need to provide (among other things) a VIN OR an Arizona Serial number.
There is no VIN and to get an AZ serial number you have to have the car inspected (which you need a serial number for first). I think (hope) sanity will prevail and they'll inspect the T Bucket and issue a serial number. That should then allow me to get a title.

There is a vendor here who has said he issues a Title with his kits. PROBLEM. If the 'car' has a title that means it's NOT new. So I'd be buying and registering a USED vehicle.
AND, how can he issue a title for a bunch of parts, no engine number, or even what engine is in it, and other essential details needed to get a title? It's not a vehicle until it's ready for inspection. So would I have to build it and then ship it to some other state so he can title it (in his name)?
Not going to happen. And in any case I will not be buying a complete kit from day one. This build will need to be done 'as it goes', buying a few parts each month or so.

This will happen. One way or another it will happen. I might have to move to another state (yes please) but it will happen.

Final note. Still no contact with Mr Inspector. If I can't make contact tomorrow I have one other avenue. By the end of the week I will have an answer.

*END RANT.

Sorry I got a little long. It's 11:00pm and still 85 degrees in this apartment.

 

[rubicon]

My understanding with Spirit, is you buy the kit from them, build it complete, takes pictures of the vehicle when completed. Send the pictures to Spirit and then they will send you the title and VIN from their state. You would then do a title transfer in our state. That is one big advantage of buying a car from Spirit.

 

[Bagman]

Just a quick story regarding registration and title for my build. I am in Florida so I am sure the process is different but maybe this will help. I purchased a new Total performance frame off Craigslist that a guy had stored in his shop for 10 years and never built. I got a bill of sale from him. I was almost done with my build and it hit me. "how in the heck am I going to get a title for this" I literally lost sleep worrying about it. I knew TP had been out of business for a while and also knew Speedway purchased quite a bit of their old stock etc. I started with a call to Speedway and spoke to the guy that is in charge of MOS for their frames. He said unfortunately he couldnt send me a MOS since they did not manufacture it. He asked me to send him pics of the frame, serial number etc. In return he sent me a letter stating that it was a TP frame etc and that TP was now out of business.
I did a ton of research on the web specifically in the DMV records, archives, procedures etc. I came across a couple of DMV procedures (for the DMV employees) in PDF form. I printed them out. One such document was a procedure for dealing with a company that went out of business and no MOS was available. It simply stated I could sign an affidavit stating they were out of business.
Some of the other forms regarded registering as a replica etc. So i printed everything out, had my insurance already and headed to my local DMV. I live in a small town and dont necessarily "know" the women in there, but I see them around town etc. First question I asked was if they had ever registered or titled a replica. She said in 30 years she had worked there, no. She didnt know what one was. I handed her a stack of paperwork I had printed out including the DMV practice for titling and registering etc. She took it to her supervisor and she came and talked to me. She asked where my MOS was. I said the company was out of business and pulled out the form for her procedure for this. She went and made some calls for about 10 mins. I felt like the process was going down hill and was losing faith. She came back and instructed the other lady how to do it. 10 mins later I was out of there with my project registered as a 1923 Ford and got Antique plates.
Moral of the story, dont give up and do your homework. show up with everything you think they might ask for.
I had other alternatives that I really didnt want to do. One was a street rod title. Issue with that is you cant drive your car as a daily driver. You are restricted to occasional driving like parades, car show etc.
The other was I could have got an assembled from parts title. It would then be registered as a 2016 and have to be hauled to tampa for inspection etc. I definitely wasnt interested in that.
Anyways, good luck and I am sure you will be able to get it registered and titled in AZ.

 

[fletcherson]

Just a quick story regarding registration and title for my build. I am in Florida so I am sure the process is different but maybe this will help. I purchased a new Total performance frame off Craigslist that a guy had stored in his shop for 10 years and never built. I got a bill of sale from him. I was almost done with my build and it hit me. "how in the heck am I going to get a title for this" I literally lost sleep worrying about it. I knew TP had been out of business for a while and also knew Speedway purchased quite a bit of their old stock etc. I started with a call to Speedway and spoke to the guy that is in charge of MOS for their frames. He said unfortunately he couldnt send me a MOS since they did not manufacture it. He asked me to send him pics of the frame, serial number etc. In return he sent me a letter stating that it was a TP frame etc and that TP was now out of business.
I did a ton of research on the web specifically in the DMV records, archives, procedures etc. I came across a couple of DMV procedures (for the DMV employees) in PDF form. I printed them out. One such document was a procedure for dealing with a company that went out of business and no MOS was available. It simply stated I could sign an affidavit stating they were out of business.
Some of the other forms regarded registering as a replica etc. So i printed everything out, had my insurance already and headed to my local DMV. I live in a small town and dont necessarily "know" the women in there, but I see them around town etc. First question I asked was if they had ever registered or titled a replica. She said in 30 years she had worked there, no. She didnt know what one was. I handed her a stack of paperwork I had printed out including the DMV practice for titling and registering etc. She took it to her supervisor and she came and talked to me. She asked where my MOS was. I said the company was out of business and pulled out the form for her procedure for this. She went and made some calls for about 10 mins. I felt like the process was going down hill and was losing faith. She came back and instructed the other lady how to do it. 10 mins later I was out of there with my project registered as a 1923 Ford and got Antique plates.
Moral of the story, dont give up and do your homework. show up with everything you think they might ask for.
I had other alternatives that I really didnt want to do. One was a street rod title. Issue with that is you cant drive your car as a daily driver. You are restricted to occasional driving like parades, car show etc.
The other was I could have got an assembled from parts title. It would then be registered as a 2016 and have to be hauled to tampa for inspection etc. I definitely wasnt interested in that.
Anyways, good luck and I am sure you will be able to get it registered and titled in AZ.

You do have to do their job sometimes, in situations that are out of the norm. I have several cars in Ohio that have historical plates. Similar restrictions as what you described for fla street rod plates, but I can drive to have them serviced, shows, etc... basically I drive them where and when I want to. I've never been questioned. Of course I don't drive any of them everyday, like a daily commute. The plus side is I don't have to renew them. Actually I think the tags are good for 40 years. Also studebaker titles, so I've heard, work if you have parts from one, as there were no serial numbers on early models. One can also obtain New York titles for cars with lost titles, then transfer to where you reside, as long as its legitimate. I have a friend who is a certified antique car appraiser for insurance valuations, etc, and builds old hot rods, etc...he has told me about this. If you do the due diligence, there are ways to get it done.