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Steering dampers revolt!

PotvinGuy

PotvinGuy

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Alright, listen up pilgrim. In redoing my front end, I've been researching steering dampers. The only one I've found that is marketed to us is the cheesy Volkswagen unit that So-Cal slaps their decal on and sells for $40 (you can get it on eBay for $27 with free shipping). This is the best we can do? Therefore my quest: find a damper that matches the quality of the other parts of our cars. I do this on behalf of all my fellow rodders; what a swell guy am I.

You are encouraged to submit any units, any links or ideas. I will be updating this thread frequently. Stay tuned.
 
RPM said:
Food for thought! There are 1000s of T Buckets running around without that steering damper. You have to wonder what they did so they didn't need to add that. I never use them on our cars and I have had them well over 100 mph.
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Ron, I think some folks use them to mask problems with their steering. You know, bad alignments, out-of-balance wheels and such. Most rods, with the conventional worm-and-sector box, shouldn't need a damper. Now with my R&P I think one is called for. I feel every bump in the road, which is great when I'm in my F1 car :rolleyes:, but not much fun in the bucket. If you've been following my project thread you know that I've drilled the arms you sent and things are looking fine.
 
Maybe if your toe-in didn't change every time you hit a pebble , you wouldn't get all that feedback.....:whistling:
dave
 
2old2fast said:
Maybe if your toe-in didn't change every time you hit a pebble , you wouldn't get all that feedback.....:whistling:
dave
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You may have a point. I'm not sure about my frame-mount R&P setup. Does anyone else do this? What has been your experience? Of course this setup is common on older sports cars, but they are careful to have the pivot point of the R&P arms match that of the suspension. Hmmm...more research for me, methinks.
 
I agree that a nicer piece should be manufactured. I prefer the feel of the steering when a damper is used, unfortunately there is no good place to hide the unit on our style (CCR) roadsters.
Think about this, if you take the steering coupler or u-joint off at the rack and pinion and grab the tires with the car jacked up you will feel resistance as the rack is being run from left to right. Then do the same thing, sort of, with a steering gear/box and you will get a different feel.
The spindles and tie rod move freely but are slowed by the drag link going across or up to the pitman arm (hanging out 5" to 6" from the box) and putting a bit of force on the teeth of the sector shaft. So what I'm thinking is that a damper is sort of softening the blow transferred to the steering box from the drag link when a pot hole or rut try to send your wheel in a different direction.
 
It should be pretty simple to check... set your toe, on the ground , usual load , etc. ,then jack up the front to where the suspension is at " full droop" [usually a couple inches] & measure the toe , that'll give you a rough idea of how much it's moving...
dave
I'm guessing part of what you're feeling is akin to bump steer , but not exactly...o_O
 
PotvinGuy said:
You may have a point. I'm not sure about my frame-mount R&P setup. Does anyone else do this? What has been your experience? Of course this setup is common on older sports cars, but they are careful to have the pivot point of the R&P arms match that of the suspension. Hmmm...more research for me, methinks.
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PotvinGuy...I have thought long and hard about R&P units with straight axles. The absolute best way in my opinion is to mount it directly on the ale. In your case that looks like an impossibility due to the design. If a person insist on frame mounting the steering unit then the steering links need to be extremely long with the tie rod ends coming almost together at the center of the rack. I'm not sure about the direction of steering and if it is a front or rear steer unit but I think the Cadillac Cimarron matches that description.

Honda_civic_steering_rack_700.jpg


The longer those arms are the less length change the see when the axle moves up and down.
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K9360_TOP.jpg

Moog Rack and Pinion Bellow Kit K9360



The big problem is I think they are all power units but it is possible to convert them to manual use. And they are not really pretty but could probably be cleaned up quite a bit. There might be another pack out there of like design but would have to do some research. Rather complicated for such an easy chore. Guess I'll need to think on this some more.

George
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A conventional worm-gear steering box transfers very little motion from the road wheels back to the steering wheel. But a manual R&P transfers motion 100% in both directions, which is why I think I need a damper. Hmmm...CCR and RPM seem to have differing opinions...two pros disagree. I like that. A healthy debate can raise all boats (fractured metaphor?).

The Speedway piece is a vibration damper and might help some. Anyone using one? And the Bilstein unit is a true damper and I'm looking to find something like that to fit on a bucket. And I'd like it to be adjustable and come with good mounts, not the cheap clamps on the So-Cal unit. I'm looking at motorcycle units (those guys get all the good stuff) and some exotic off-road units, like this nice piece for a mere $420:
http://www.4wd.com/Jeep-Lift-Kits-J...px?t_c=1&t_s=509&t_pt=3270&t_pn=FOX983-02-070

It has occurred to me that maybe only 1% of buckets have R&P steering, so much of this thread will be academic to the other 99%. But hey, it's all good techy stuff.
 
FF, that Cadillac unit is interesting. It would get the tie rod pivot points closer to the axle geometry (with a tube axle the pivot point is at the opposite wheel). I've thought about splitting the axle, which would move the axle pivot points closer to the tie rod pivot points, but maybe some day when I'm really drunk.
 
PotvinGuy...has there been any improvement as a result of your recent changes?
 
Well, friction shocks don't look too good as steering dampers, or, for that matter, as shocks! Mangled from Wikipedia:

"Friction shocks have less than ideal behaviour for car suspension. An ideal suspension would offer more resistance to greater suspension forces, with less resistance at low speeds for a smoother ride. Friction shocks though have a mostly constant rate. This is even greater when stationary, owing to stiction between stationary plates. For larger bumps the damping may even be reduced. Hydraulic shocks/dampers have a resistance that increases with velocity of suspension movement, the ideal behaviour."

Stiction would be a sticking point (pun!) for steering feel.

I read some rodders comments on the HAMB and other car sites, and saw mixed reviews of friction shocks. Some guys rebuilt units with different friction materials to get better action or make them last longer. Didn't see any comments about using them as steering dampers. Too bad, the Speedway units http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speed...wnFXwtUrtYQQ6MDl7V56tYnyHmudpgx_zNBoCwcnw_wcB are really pretty.
 
I've looked at lots of dampers and decided to try a motorcycle unit. It's small, adjustable and looks smashing. I'm going to try to mount it from the upper 4-bar to the steering arm, such that it will be parallel to the R&P tie rod. I have some good looking clamps coming, too. I'll drive the car first without the damper and get a feel for the new steering. Then try the damper. It will be a month or so before the car is on the road, but I'll post pics as the work progresses.
black%2520damper.jpg
 
I have the damper in place:

damper_2015.JPG

It's attached to the steering arm, and to the batwing via a custom bracket (OK, part of a shelf brace, $2 at Home Depot). It has 20 steps of adjustment and looks really fine. Even if it doesn't work I'll leave it on and come up with some very odd explanations. Still a few weeks away from driving. Stay tuned.
 
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