The 5 speed swap

[deckofficer]

Well,

Santa (the UPS guy) probably isn't too fond of 110 lb boxes, but the TKO 600 5 speed arrived today. I found out that my old Muncie was an M21, not the M20 wide ratio I thought it was. First gear in the M21 is 2.20 to 1, while first gear on the new trans is 2.87. Should make quite a differance getting off the line. There was 3 reasons for doing this swap now, the new 383 stroker exceeds the torque rating of the Muncie by 200 lb/ft, 2nd, I've always wanted an overdrive gear for the T, and 3rd, my hydralic throw out bearing crapped out. The od ratio is 0.64 which will make highway cruising quite pleasant and the torque rating of 600 lb/ft should carry me through my final engine upgrade. It never ceases to amaze me the cost of the little items, like $50.00 just for the O-ring kit (10 O-rings) for the hydralic clutch, and get this, $50.00 for a plain white shifter ball with the correct shift pattern engraved on the top. For you gear heads.....

gear Muncie M20 TKO 600

1st 2.20 2.87
2nd 1.64 1.89
3rd 1.28 1.28 rear gears 3.54 rear tires 31" diameter
4th 1.00 1.00
5th NA 0.64

So, at 65 MPH, I'll be at 1600 RPMs. As some of you might have read, my hope was to go with the 6 speed and a 0.50 overdrive so that I could "idle" down the highway at 65 MPH at 1250 RPMs. My driveshaft is 14.5" and has a yoke to shaft angle of 4.5 degrees. The 6 sped was 5.84" longer than the Muncie while the 5 speed is 2.19" longer. I hope to bury more splines on the yoke to trans output shaft so that I only need to shorten the driveshaft by some amount less than 2".

Pictures (from an outside site) will be posted on follow ups of the progress.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all,

Bob

 

[Northstar T]

For future reference, I've found that Greyhound is MUCH cheeper on heavy items than UPS.
I think you made the right choice on the 5 speed. I just wasn't convinced that 1250 RPM would make the engine happy on the freeway, but 1600 should be just ducky .

Russ

 

[deckofficer]

For future reference, I've found that Greyhound is MUCH cheeper on heavy items than UPS.
I think you made the right choice on the 5 speed. I just wasn't convinced that 1250 RPM would make the engine happy on the freeway, but 1600 should be just ducky .

Russ

On a carberated engine I agree, but next winter's project is throttle body fuel injection. I'm trying to catch up to you Russ.

Bob

 

[Northstar T]

On a carberated engine I agree, but next winter's project is throttle body fuel injection. I'm trying to catch up to you Russ.

Bob

you'll never catch up to me Bob. before you're headlights even hit me I will have changed up again . keep trying though! :jester:

Russ

 

[deckofficer]

you'll never catch up to me Bob. before you're headlights even hit me I will have changed up again . keep trying though! :jester:

Russ

Its fun trying.

Bob

 

[old round fart]

Its fun trying.

Bob

Yea... fun and EXPENSIVE!! Merry Christmas all you bucketheads!

 

[deckofficer]

Might be done by the new year. Waiting on a new clutch disc, but at least the hydralic throw out bearing has been rebuilt.

Happy New Year to all you bucketheads

Bob

 

[409T]

Might be done by the new year. Waiting on a new clutch disc, but at least the hydralic throw out bearing has been rebuilt.

Happy New Year to all you bucketheads

Bob

New or re-surfaced flywheel and pressure plate? Just curious.

 

[deckofficer]

Flywheel was new from the engine rebuild, less than 3500 miles. Pressure plate was resurfaced at rebuild. Differant spline count on new trans, so waiting for new clutch disc.

Bob

 

[deckofficer]

Sometimes projects aren't as easy as first thought. I made the incorrect assumption that the 1967~1981 Firebird/Camaro transmission tunnel would be one of the smallest in the old muscle car line. I was wrong. Since I made that incorrect assumption, and the 5 speed swap was a near "drop in" affair for the Camaro, I'm finding out that mine, like a larger Chevelle, will require lots of tunnel removal and fabrication. Some other issues have jumped up, like having to grind on the front of the new tranny to be able to use a "vintage" Mcloud hydralic throw out bearing servo to assure a flush mounting. Also need to change out a 3 wire speedo sensor for a 2 wire, the list goes on.

Bob

 

[one finger john]

Is the trans in the "finished installation" position? Will the emergency brake clear? Perhaps a 1 in. fence or spacer to raise the tunnel as a whole could be done without a lot of work.

Just my thoughts. John

 

[Ted Brown]

An Auto would have been soooo much quicker, all the way around... But I know you love them shifters...

 

[deckofficer]

John,

No, not in the final position. In fact, the tailshaft needs to come up at least 3". I will need to cut the trans tunnel to accomadate the raised covers and tranny casting that has a greater height than the Muncie that came out. I only want to cut just enough meat to clear, so that it isn't too small of a section between the cut outs for the clutch and brake pedals. I need to keep that section as wide as possible because as you all know, when you don't have doors, your floorboard has to support your total body weight when you get in or out. I'd rather fabricate a thin inspection cover for the tunnel than to have to fab a all new floorboard out of thicker steel.

Bob

 

[deckofficer]

An Auto would have been soooo much quicker, all the way around... But I know you love them shifters...

Ted,

You do know me so well, I perfer to shift. I get annoyed at Detroit (Ford) everytime I drive my diesel Excursion. It develops max torque at 1600 rpms, but will you ever see it with a slush box? No, at full throttle at that rpm it will simply downshift and raise the rpms above max torque. Kind of a chickenshoot way for the engineers to use a car style automatic behind a diesel. I didn't even have a choice for the Excursion, auto was the ONLY transmission. At least on my F350 crew cab dually I was able to order the 6 speed. Could not buy that F350 off of any dealer's lot because when you want the leather and luxury stuff, all the dealers will stock their inventory with is the autos. I'm not a big fan of GM, but at least they were the first to put a diesel rated Allison auto behind their Duramax. And now with GM, you can override a downshift to be able to stay full throttle in your chosen gear with that auto's torque converter locked up. GM isn't afraid of their tranny. Also, lets be honest, our T's are so light, how can you determine how good your off idle performance is if you can't slowly floor it in top gear at 1000 rpms? Or if you don't have gobs of torque down low, then starting at 2000 rpms.

Bob

 

[Ted Brown]

I myself like to go QUICK when I down shift... If I left her in High gear, that is way too slow for me, even though it is faster than a stock car of any type, well it used to be... hehe now that I do not care for the speed any more, it does not matter to me, but if I were going up a steep grade and wanted to pass something, I would still down shift, I love the rush she gives when she wants to run hard... to each his own... that is what makes the World go round... ET I like much better than speed... First guy to the candy store wins...

 

[deckofficer]

Ted,

Same here. If I really want to rip, I will downshift, but I do love beating the ricers by just rolling on throttle at around 1600 rpms. It really puts them in their place when they are screaming to 7000, and my little modest T just rumbles past them without downshifting.

Bob

 

[Corley]

Bob,
I have a theory that you are running into all of these install "issues" with the new trans as punishment for bucking the trend to go "automatic". It's karma... ONLY KIDDING!

SUGGESTION:

However, might I point out that all of the pix you post get downsized for display, and are taking up a lot of space somewhere, be it here or on photo bucket. By being copied into responses, more space and then even more space on additional copies is consumed unessesarily. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the pix, they are fantastic, but I suggest you might consider just reducing them a little further before posting, down to about 25-50k instead of the 100-150k you currently are using. Since they get reduced anyway, I see no advantage to the larger file sizes and they cosume the space that 4 or 5 smaller pix could be consuming.

I think Mike might appreciate the smaller file sizes as well and those with slower internet connection speeds will get to see them without as long a wait. (In the 'T' bucket spirit, quicker is better.) It's only a freakin' suggestion, so please don't hate me!

Or, maybe I just don't understand the situation, in which case please enlighten me,

Corley

 

[deckofficer]

Bob,
I have a theory that you are running into all of these install "issues" with the new trans as punishment for bucking the trend to go "automatic". It's karma... ONLY KIDDING!

SUGGESTION:

However, might I point out that all of the pix you post get downsized for display, and are taking up a lot of space somewhere, be it here or on photo bucket. By being copied into responses, more space and then even more space on additional copies is consumed unessesarily. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the pix, they are fantastic, but I suggest you might consider just reducing them a little further before posting, down to about 25-50k instead of the 100-150k you currently are using. Since they get reduced anyway, I see no advantage to the larger file sizes and they cosume the space that 4 or 5 smaller pix could be consuming.

I think Mike might appreciate the smaller file sizes as well and those with slower internet connection speeds will get to see them without as long a wait. (In the 'T' bucket spirit, quicker is better.) It's only a freakin' suggestion, so please don't hate me!

Or, maybe I just don't understand the situation, in which case please enlighten me,

Corley

Corley,

I would never get upset at you or anyone on this forum (even though "Leg Show T" did rub me the wrong way). I have had this construstive critism before because I use a 26" flat monitor, I didn't know my picture posts were too large. I had a large group of forum users direct me in picture reduction, and this current size is what THEY all wanted. With their input, I reduced all my pictures to that size befor posting them to Photobucket. I'm pretty laid back, don't like to make waves, so when I first joined I was told by many members "post a lot of pictures". I did, and reduced their size as per their recommendation. Then I was informed how much of the forum's resources my "on forum" pictures were consuming, so I deleted my gallery and moved every picture off site. If a group of forum users as large as the group that walked me through all my earlier reductions wants them reduced even further, I will try and comply but remember with over 300 T related pictures on Photobucket now at the current resolution, that will be time consuming.

Bob

 

[Hotrod46]

Bob

I've been following "The Great Trans Swap Saga" from the beginning. You've gotten a lot of good advice and I didn't want to clutter things up repeating already good answers.

I don't see any other way to go other than to do major surgery on the trans tunnel. If the tailshaft has to come up 3 more inches from your pic, the only other option is to lower the engine. I doubt that is a workable option.

When I built the glass trans tunnel for my car, I used a simple method. I cut the floor to fit my trans (a 700R4) pretty close. I left about an inch or so clearance. I cut some temporary ribs out of 3/4" lumber that would fit over the trans and had the shape that I wanted on the top. I covered the ribs with thin aluminum roof flashing that is available fairly cheap at most hardware stores. This stuff can be cut with scissors and shaped by hand. I tacked it to the ribs with small nails (tacks actually). In a few places I had to resort to duct tape applied from the bottom to seal a few openings. Rough up the surrounding glass floor with 36 grit and clean with acetone. Then apply your glass mat or cloth directly over this form. I just saturated the mat with resin and layed it in overlapping pieces. The beauty is that the resin can't bond to the aluminum sheeting. At least it didn't in my case, since the sheeting is too slick. After the resin set, I simply pulled the ribs out from the bottom and the sheeting released easily from the new tunnel. I added another layer of glass from the bottom, after roughing up and cleaning the entire underside of the tunnel and surrounding floor. This part was easy on my car since I could turn the body upside down. Might be hard to do working under the car.

If I were doing your swap, I would strip the interior and carefully trim the floor to just fit the new trans. Then I would rebuild the tunnel using the above method or another that might be better. BTW - A cutoff wheel on a die grinder works great for trimming the glass.

Mike

 

[deckofficer]

Thanks Mike,

As you might remember, you were the first one to assist me with great advise almost 2 years ago. There is a good chance I will follow your advise again.

Bob