Ron Pope Motorsports                California Custom Roadsters               

The Ackerman Way

Rick

VIP
VIP Member
ACKERMAN STEERING

Maybe this will help some of you guys to understand the Ackerman principle and how it affects T-Buckets. The basic theory is that the front wheels of a 2 wheel steer vehicle with the steering on the front should remain tangent to the turning circles of each individual wheel. It is theorized that the center point of these circles falls on a line that is the same as the centerline of the rear axle housing projected out into space. The center of the both arcs is at the same point on the rear axle centerline. That centerpoint slides along that line as the amount of steering input is changed. In other words, on a small amount of turn the centerpoint is way out there, in a hard turn the center is closer to the car. In the straight-ahead position the centerpoint is at infinity. That's way, way, way out there! It's time for a little drawing to keep from confusing you with this attempt at an explanation.
AP2.jpg
As you can see, the left wheel turns on a shorter radius circle and needs to turn sharper than the right wheel to remain tangent to its turning circle. Why do these wheels need to stay tangent? That places the least amount of side loading on the tires and suspension components. In other words tire and parts wear is going to be minimized. How do we get the geometry such that this desired effect is achieved? Fortunately Mr. Ackerman came along and figured out that if he arranged the mechanical parts of the steering system so that the pivot points of the linkage (tie rod) that connected the two front wheels were closer than the pivot points for the front wheel mounting assembly (spindles with their kingpins), it would affect how the wheels reacted when turning was occurring. He apparently noticed that if he made these points such that if you drew a line from the center of the kingpin to the center of the rear axle housing and placed the tie rod ends center on that line, it would give the desired change in the angles that the two wheels turned. Old Mr. Ackerman found that he had a principle that applied universally. I bet he was pretty proud!

AP1.jpg

Time for another illustration. O.K., automobiles steered fine and everyone was happy. And along comes Joe Hot Rod and he decides that his heap needs to be nice and low. Hey, no problem. Let's move the spring back behind the axle and down nice and low. Looks great, in da weeds! Oops, small problem, no place for the tie rod to run back there. Imagine that you can see a "great idea" light bulb over Joe's head. Hey that's easy, just swap the spindles side for side and put the tie rod on the front. Look, the wheels still are connected and turn when you give the steering wheel a twist. That will cure all of my problems.

AP7.jpg

Well not quite Joe. You have just wiped out Mr. Ackerman's principle. Your tie rod attachment points (tie rod end or heim joint) no longer fall on that imaginary line. So what happens now? Well, either the inside wheel does what it is supposed to do, or the outside wheel behaves correctly, but not both at the same time. So now old Joe has that nice set of new high dollar tires grinding themselves up on the local asphalt every time he goes around a corner. The car also has a tendency to get a little quirky because the wheels can't make up their minds which one is going to be in charge of where they are going to point.

AP3.jpg

Is old Joe just screwed on this deal now, stuck with this problem? Nope! He just needs to get those pesky attachment points back over on Mr. Ackerman's imaginary line. It works just as well on a front mounted tie rod as a rear mounted one. Remember, Mr. Ackerman found out that it was universal. It depends on what he has for front-end hardware as to what he can do to correct this situation. Early Ford spindles with the built on steering arms can be heated and bent to get back out there where they should be. Just be darn careful doing it; if you don't know what you're doing find someone who does and have them do it. The aftermarket offers some parts that can take care of this problem. Sometimes special design parts will need to be made. A lot depends on the individual situation. Brake configurations (calipers and rotors mostly) can create some interesting obstacles. If you can't get out there where Mr. Ackerman says you should be, at least get as close as you can.
AP4.jpg

Lo and behold, old Joe made the changes and guess what? His lo and in da weeds bucket is cruising along life's highway is fine style. Tire life is improved, steering is less quirky (still needs a little work on the bumpsteer deal) and he is all smiles.

AP6.jpg

Well, old Joe is not alone on this deal, he's got lots of buddies with the same problem and they haven't done a thing about it. So what happens? Well they just go cruising alongof course they stop by the tire store a little more often than Joe and leave some of their hard earned. And they have to pay a little closer attention to where their missile is headed when all of the guys are out for a cruise and find that great little road with all of the curves that just beg for a guy to open it up just a tad.a tad? Yah right!
By George Barnes
 
Nice job, Rick! Knowing HOW & WHY something works can always come in handy. Especially for the guys who like to build their own setups.
 
Great job Rick. You have shown with the pictures exactly what I tried to explain in my post yesterday. As they say, one picture is worth a thousand words. However, I believe that those that feel it is unimportant will not be too likely to change.
 
No offense to Rick as I'm sure he's just trying to be helpful, but that write-up was done by George Barnes (GAB) for the NTBA Tech Pages. It does say "by George Barnes" at the end of the article, but it's easy to miss.
 
Having proper Ackermann is highly overrated IMO. As I mentioned in the earlier thread, I had to install the steering arms in my T in front because the spring and other stuff is in the way of putting the tie rod back there. My Son Dan was on my butt also to put the tie rod behind because he reads all these doom and gloom stories about tire scrub and bad handling and believes everything he reads. I keep telling him that I've been doing this stuff for 50 years and found out a long time ago there is the "perfect world" then there is the "real world." Sometimes things that are not supposed to work just do.

So, to make him happy, I pulled off my headlights and turned the bolt on arms around and reinstalled the tie rod behind the axle on my T. (the headlights are too low and want to occupy the same place the tie rod would go.) We took it for a test drive and it handled no differently than it did with the tie rod in front. NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. Yes, it did scrub less on hard, parking lot turns, but going down the road, changing lanes, etc, no difference.

I came home and put the tie rod back in front, and since then have made a 5 hour Interstate trip to Billetproof and back, and the car goes down the road perfectly. I do have a bent rim that I am going to change out, but that is in no way related to the Ackerman thing........the rim is from a '46 Merc and just got kissed sometime in the last 60 years.

My '27 is set up with the tie rod behind so it has proper Ackerman, and IMO the '23 handles just as well, if not better. That is just my experience, but if it makes someone happy, go ahead and put the tie rod behind.

Don

Oh, BTW, it might surprise some of you to learn that some production cars do not have "proper Ackerman." My Jeep truck was one, it had the drag links and tie rod in front of the axle and the tires screamed like mad when parking it. There are other new cars that also are set up "backwards."
 
Lee_in_KC said:
No offense to Rick as I'm sure he's just trying to be helpful, but that write-up was done by George Barnes (GAB) for the NTBA Tech Pages. It does say "by George Barnes" at the end of the article, but it's easy to miss.

Dang dude i never claimed i wrote that artical and yes i posted the WHOLE artical authur and all.
 
I was wondering about the tie rod in front, why is it frowned upon when as Don says it works fine and so many seem to use it? Is it just ackerman or is there another reason? Thanks Pete
 
Rick, I wasn't being critical of you. I just thought to be fair to George it should be emphasized, as it looked to me like several of the responders had the impression you wrote it. It's easy to miss the "by George Barnes" at the very bottom. It's a great write-up and it was thoughtful of you to bring it to the attention of the T-Bucketeers.
 
No harm done but if the folks were to read the whole thing they would see old GAB's name there at the bottom:lol:
 
I have my tie-rod in front of my axle because my frame occupies the space where the tie-rod would go (unintended consequence of having my spring perch raised :lol:). However, I bought steering arms that are designed for a front-steer set-up. The ackerman is correct (see pic below).

As to why people "frown" on front-steer, besides the common belief that your ackerman will be messed up, which may or may not be an issue and apparently isn't for Don, a lot of people, including me, have a lot of anxiety about having the tie-rod essentially be your front bumper. It probably isn't the wisest arrangement to have such a critical steering component sticking out it front of the car where it could get whacked by anything you happen to hit... dog, road debris, the back tire of the T in front of you if you're not paying attention coming to a stop at a light :eek:, or whatever.

When I'm driving my T, I am constantly aware of two things... that tie-rod sticking out there and the fact that I only have 3.5" inches of ground clearance under my oil pan! Well, three things... keep your foot off the loud pedal when a cop is nearby!!

EDIT: Dang it! Forgot the pic...
 
No pic and yes it's a nono with the loud pedal when the police are around:D
 
Nice looking front end"Lee in KC"
Nothing wrong with front steer at all ,tell someone uses rear steer spindles/arms to do it and not fix them.
Chevy spindle arms can be just turned over and fliped so they go out,and you add a longer tierod,that gives them very close to right ackerman,but Ford arms that are part of the spindles need bending when used in front.
There is a lot of missunderstanding about this,as even the drawings don't show plan enough for those that only look brifly at them. It truly takes some time if your not an engineer to see that the tires are fighting each other very badly ,when something close to good ackerman is not used.


Don ,like some other is just not facing facts, who thinks he knows something about his so called real world and wrong backword ackerman,the only thing he should know is how super lucky he's been. Sorry but this is one of those things steering wise that dose feel OK tell the big panic happens,the thing you have not plan on,when you really needed the front tires to hold bite and they don't!
It's not doom talk at all,it is real fact,they don't hold in a turn when they could of with right ackerman.
I'm sure Don or any one saying they think it feels the same to them,is not telling a lie as they look at it,but just there lack of real world racing time,with raw edge turns and stops. That's not things you feel on the street tell that old lady backs into you path or something you didn't see,luck and GOD can save ya,but some real world extra tire bite would really help out too.
Don,your a good rod builder from other things I've seen,on this ackerman one your fooling your self.

If you at lest make the steering arms come strait off from the kingpin on front steer,you have added about 50% more bit to the front tires in a turn then you had with backword ackerman.

I've raced for 40 years,so do understand this well,and understand why to steet rodders it seems to feels OK.
 
This is a great artical on this subject. Is there some way to move it to our "Technical Articals"?

Ron
 
Lest anyone thinks that I am some kind of purist about the tie rod NOT being out front, here is how I'm doing mine:

6-2-2008002.jpg


The spindles are from a front steer car though.
 
I have lurked for ages without a comment but I have to say something here. I have been involved with motorsport in Australia for ages and the most graphic demonstration of ackerman or lack of is when I was racing superkarts or enduro karts. Sometimes you would run less ackerman on a track that was wide open with a lot of straights but on a short tight circuit you would wind the ackerman on. Believe me you really notice the benefit of ackerman when turning a tight curve because you really feel the inside wheel biting into the track and jacking up the inside corner of the kart and putting more pressure on the inside wheel which is also a function of toe in/out and caster. If you had negative ackerman and tried to turn the corner you would have the inside wheel trying to take the same arc or greater of the outside wheel which would put you into the weeds.

opinion from downunder
Neddy
 
Yes Ron, you race or rallye then Ackerman comes into play. Otherwise it makes no difference.

But as Mr. Bat says, we are all stupid and don't know better. Don's 50 years of experience is useless because it is not suppose to work that way and its written in stone. YOU SCREWED UP DON. Been driving mine for 15 years with steering arms that go straight back and not angles to the rear center. I have driven other buckets that had correct ackerman and others with front mounted tie rod with inward mounted arms. I cannot tell one bit of difference. But we are all stupid so then I guess they are all screwed up and will end up in a heap of junk. OMG, I gotta go out there RIGHT NOW and fix it. Its wrong and will not work.

Blah, blah, blah.
 
neddy said:
I have lurked for ages without a comment but I have to say something here. I have been involved with motorsport in Australia for ages and the most graphic demonstration of ackerman or lack of is when I was racing superkarts or enduro karts. Sometimes you would run less ackerman on a track that was wide open with a lot of straights but on a short tight circuit you would wind the ackerman on. Believe me you really notice the benefit of ackerman when turning a tight curve because you really feel the inside wheel biting into the track and jacking up the inside corner of the kart and putting more pressure on the inside wheel which is also a function of toe in/out and caster. If you had negative ackerman and tried to turn the corner you would have the inside wheel trying to take the same arc or greater of the outside wheel which would put you into the weeds.

opinion from downunder
Neddy
:lol:

You are exactly correct. We built something like 150 kart frames about 10 years ago. Ackerman does have a big affect on a kart and can change lap times a great deal.
 

     Ron Pope Motorsports                Advertise with Us!     
Back
Top