Toe in

[Gerry]

Hi everyone

I need to set the toe in on my Fad. Heres the bind. The only adjustment I have is by bending the steering arms as the tie rod is not adjustable. No problem as this was the original design. The front tyres are 80/100 X 16 which is 3 inches wide on 16 inch rims. Motorcycle tryes

So what toe in are you guys running.
Gerry

 

[Youngster]

Toe in on these cars is as varied as the number of cars out there. One guy will run 1/4" or more and the next guy will be set at zero. The cars I have built have always had the same variation. I'm thinking it has to do with the attitude of your frame rails and the inclination of the control arms i.e. bones, hairpins, 4-bar etc..... A good 4 wheel alignment would be the first step. From there it's trial and error. You might want to think about making your tie rod adjustable, would simplfy thing a great deeal.

Ron

 

[one finger john]

Hi everyone

I need to set the toe in on my Fad. Heres the bind. The only adjustment I have is by bending the steering arms as the tie rod is not adjustable. No problem as this was the original design. The front tyres are 80/100 X 16 which is 3 inches wide on 16 inch rims. Motorcycle tryes

So what toe in are you guys running.
Gerry

Gerry, did you originally build it with 0 in. toe in? With such a small contact area and a rounded tire , I do not think you have to toe in or out.

 

[RPM]

Toe in on these cars is as varied as the number of cars out there. One guy will run 1/4" or more and the next guy will be set at zero. The cars I have built have always had the same variation. I'm thinking it has to do with the attitude of your frame rails and the inclination of the control arms i.e. bones, hairpins, 4-bar etc..... A good 4 wheel alignment would be the first step. From there it's trial and error. You might want to think about making your tie rod adjustable, would simplify thing a great deal.

Ron

I agree with Ron there is no magic # on this. Lots of trial and error. Seems each chassis is different in some way, weight or something.

 

[VegasBruce]

I just did a bunch of adjusting on mine, I now have 7 degrees of camber and 1/4" toe in. A couple of quick runs down the highway and it seams OK. I have to get her titled and run her a while and see how it works.

 

[putz]

I just did a bunch of adjusting on mine, I now have 7 degrees of camber and 1/4" toe in. A couple of quick runs down the highway and it seams OK. I have to get her titled and run her a while and see how it works.

Hopefully that is caster and not camber otherwise goodbye tire.

 

[VegasBruce]

Hopefully that is caster and not camber otherwise goodbye tire.

Duh, yep its caster, not camber.

 

[putz]

Good I was going into alignment heart failure.:goof: I did three alignments today.

 

[Ted Brown]

Ideally, when the car is rolling straight ahead, the amount of toe-in will diminish (due to forces affecting clearances in steering linkage) so that the wheels are practically rolling with zero toe... So, If your whole steering assembly is new and very tight, very little toe-in is needed... :goof:

 

[Gerry]

Ideally, when the car is rolling straight ahead, the amount of toe-in will diminish (due to forces affecting clearances in steering linkage) so that the wheels are practically rolling with zero toe... So, If your whole steering assembly is new and very tight, very little toe-in is needed...

Thanks everyone. I sort of knew it would be a case of 'it varies from car to car'.
We are going with a 1/16'' as a staring point
Gerry

 

[RPM]

I think one big factor in to why these cars all very so much is not 2 of them use the same wheels and tires. Some use very narrow tires and others wider tires affecting the SAI When that changes then the leverage as Ted mentioned changes on the steering linkages and everything becomes different. Different wheel offsets affect SAI also.

SAI is Steering Angle Inclination built in to the axle on these cars and is none adjustable. Theroricly it is a line that runs through the king pin and hits the ground dead center of where the tire hits the road. The king pin angle can't be changed as it would also change the camber. The wheel offset could be changed to fix this, but no one bothers.

Maybe Putz can add to this, I haven't done alignments in 20 years.

 

[putz]

Ron has got it right part of it is actually having fat and skinny tires when turning wide tires with skinny it puts a lot of stress on the steering assembly even if you don't have posi. Size of tires is a big factor they can change the angle due to amount of tread on the ground. Wider tires have more of a tendency to cup or feather due to the amount of scrub that happens. So by running your hand over a tire sometimes you can feel cupping starting or by spinning. One way we check for front end play is jack up the front end and wiggle lightly not turning the wheels just real light to see if you have play in tie rod ends and drag link.I have seen guys just go back and forth and this will cover up problems. Also keep an eye on king pin vertical bearing play and slop in king pin itself.
Sorry got a little long winded

 

[Ted Brown]

Ron has got it right part of it is actually having fat and skinny tires when turning wide tires with skinny it puts a lot of stress on the steering assembly even if you don't have posi. Size of tires is a big factor they can change the angle due to amount of tread on the ground. Wider tires have more of a tendency to cup or feather due to the amount of scrub that happens. So by running your hand over a tire sometimes you can feel cupping starting or by spinning. One way we check for front end play is jack up the front end and wiggle lightly not turning the wheels just real light to see if you have play in tie rod ends and drag link.I have seen guys just go back and forth and this will cover up problems. Also keep an eye on king pin vertical bearing play and slop in king pin itself.
Sorry got a little long winded

Lots if information in this area is needed for new builders and even some old builders, this is an easy place to go wrong without even giving it a second thought, so get as long winded as you want, we all need help from pros in different areas... Thanks, ride safe

 

[one finger john]

Sorry to ask this, but how much toe in (or out) does a spoke front end need? Given that the tire contact area is minimal.

 

[putz]

With spoke wheels I would start with about a 1/16th in. As a starting point less resistance to flex steering system outward.

 

[Gerry]

With spoke wheels I would start with about a 1/16th in. As a starting point less resistance to flex steering system outward.

Thanks guys for all the advice. The whole of my front end is new so there is 'no' slop anywhere. Heres something that may make you gasp. I have made the kingpin bushed from engineering plastic. Turned up 2 tophats for the top bushes and 2 plain sleeves for the bottom bushes. Nice tight fit in the axle. Once pushed in I line reemed them. Got a real tight and smooth fit which is better than any brass bush I have every installed. Now its a case of seeing if they last.
I did fine out that some European ramp (lift) makers are now using plastic nuts on the main screws of their lifts as they outlast brass/bronze by many times. They even give a lifetime warranty on them.

1/16 is where we are starting from and this came from experience and the toe in I run on my topolino altered.
Gerry

 

[Rick]

Thanks guys for all the advice. The whole of my front end is new so there is 'no' slop anywhere. Heres something that may make you gasp. I have made the kingpin bushed from engineering plastic. Turned up 2 tophats for the top bushes and 2 plain sleeves for the bottom bushes. Nice tight fit in the axle. Once pushed in I line reemed them. Got a real tight and smooth fit which is better than any brass bush I have every installed. Now its a case of seeing if they last.
I did fine out that some European ramp (lift) makers are now using plastic nuts on the main screws of their lifts as they outlast brass/bronze by many times. They even give a lifetime warranty on them.

1/16 is where we are starting from and this came from experience and the toe in I run on my topolino altered.
Gerry

Total Performance stopped using Bronze bushings and used the Plastic ones till they were bought out by Speedway.Good choice Gerry.

 

[Gerry]

Total Performance stopped using Bronze bushings and used the Plastic ones till they were bought out by Speedway.Good choice Gerry.

never knew that. I thought it was an original thought on my behalf. I have used a LOT of plastic throughout the T where its not expected. It will be good to see how it performs and lasts.
gerry

 

[Ted Brown]

never knew that. I thought it was an original thought on my behalf. I have used a LOT of plastic throughout the T where its not expected. It will be good to see how it performs and lasts.
gerry

In the very early years I used to offer Teflon king pin bushings, but if I remember right they did not last too long, so I went back to stock, but will try this new stuff on my new chassis.. like they say. the more we/I learn, the more I know how little I know... :wow:
Lots of new tricks now days... I am a simple type Guy... I Keep It Simple and it will work and fix easier (for Me) IMHO

 

[Gerry]

In the very early years I used to offer Teflon king pin bushings, but if I remember right they did not last too long, so I went back to stock, but will try this new stuff on my new chassis.. like they say. the more we/I learn, the more I know how little I know... :wow:
Lots of new tricks now days... I am a simple type Guy... I Keep It Simple and it will work and fix easier (for Me) IMHO

Ted
I looked at TEFLON as its very smooth and needs no lube. trouble is its very soft and has a low resistance to shock loads. I used an engineering nylon. there are web site with specs for all types of this stuff but I have not got any on file. I just pick one with good wear resistance. good shock load characteristics and self lube properties. It remains to be seen if its any good for this application.
Gerry