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der Spieler
Member
I watched some of the Senate hearings yesterday. It's a dilemma and as an outsider I can see both sides of the issue. I think the auto companies waited too long to start trying to get their houses in order. All of them have made some bonehead moves in the last few years with their new models.
Ford got it the most right when they redesigned the Mustang and went back to a very good variation of the old body style. I thought Chrysler had done similarly with the Challenger until I saw it up close and personal. I realize putting it on a Charger chassis made good economical sense from the manufacturing standpoint but the original car was a pony car and this thing is a barge. Chevy's new Commode is another example of the GM design team not figuring it out. This POS doesn't come close to looking like a 67-69 Camaro. Of course GM also thought they had a winner when they introduced the Aztec. The manufacturers are hearing the consumers but they aren't listening to them. I would have been interested in either the Challenger or the Camaro if they looked like the originals in dimension and appearance. Both of those cars will sell some units to speculaters but they will die out. The Challenger at our local dealership had a $10k premium on the window sticker. Instead of $10k or $15k in depreciation the first year or so the fool who buys it will see a loss of over $20k. The Mustang will live on as long as they keep it close to what it is today. Ford is starting to move away a little bit with the 2010 and I hope they catch it before it gets out of hand again before we end up with another Mustang II or something else just as ugly.
Of course these aren't the only brands the Big 3 makes but as a car guy these are the ones I'm most interested in. Of the other models I would own an Impala and maybe a Malibu. The Buick Locerne is a beautiful car and if I had the cash I would own a Cadilac CTX. I would pass on the Ford Focus but I sort of like the Taurus, especially an all-wheel drive model if they still make it. Chrysler still has fit and finish issues to my way of thinking but I like the 300M and the Charger ain't bad. I heard that GM was considering dumping the Pontiac line. I never understood why they had so many cars using the same platform. I also heard that GM lost more money by dropping Olds than they would have lost if they had kept making it. I don't understand how that works.
The Big 3 have a lot to figure out or they will go the way of the carrier pidgeon and the dodo. Here's a link to a video that may provide an answer: detnews.com | Webvideo | Ford's most advanced assembly plant operates in rural Brazil
My $.02
Ford got it the most right when they redesigned the Mustang and went back to a very good variation of the old body style. I thought Chrysler had done similarly with the Challenger until I saw it up close and personal. I realize putting it on a Charger chassis made good economical sense from the manufacturing standpoint but the original car was a pony car and this thing is a barge. Chevy's new Commode is another example of the GM design team not figuring it out. This POS doesn't come close to looking like a 67-69 Camaro. Of course GM also thought they had a winner when they introduced the Aztec. The manufacturers are hearing the consumers but they aren't listening to them. I would have been interested in either the Challenger or the Camaro if they looked like the originals in dimension and appearance. Both of those cars will sell some units to speculaters but they will die out. The Challenger at our local dealership had a $10k premium on the window sticker. Instead of $10k or $15k in depreciation the first year or so the fool who buys it will see a loss of over $20k. The Mustang will live on as long as they keep it close to what it is today. Ford is starting to move away a little bit with the 2010 and I hope they catch it before it gets out of hand again before we end up with another Mustang II or something else just as ugly.
Of course these aren't the only brands the Big 3 makes but as a car guy these are the ones I'm most interested in. Of the other models I would own an Impala and maybe a Malibu. The Buick Locerne is a beautiful car and if I had the cash I would own a Cadilac CTX. I would pass on the Ford Focus but I sort of like the Taurus, especially an all-wheel drive model if they still make it. Chrysler still has fit and finish issues to my way of thinking but I like the 300M and the Charger ain't bad. I heard that GM was considering dumping the Pontiac line. I never understood why they had so many cars using the same platform. I also heard that GM lost more money by dropping Olds than they would have lost if they had kept making it. I don't understand how that works.
The Big 3 have a lot to figure out or they will go the way of the carrier pidgeon and the dodo. Here's a link to a video that may provide an answer: detnews.com | Webvideo | Ford's most advanced assembly plant operates in rural Brazil
My $.02
Keeper
Active Member
I would just like to see them consolidate a bit. I live in the home of GM in Canada, I see all the job losses here and hate to see all the jobs go away. I am lucky in that my job will not be affected by anything in the auto sector, sure I may see the "value" of my house drop a bit, but I am not planning on moving anytime soon.
What really gets me is how these auto makers could not see this coming. I mean damn near every Dodge comes with a Hemi, and with gas prices at $4.00 a gallon (well not anymore) I just don't see how they could not see a drop in the market.
Personally I do not want to see a hand out, if the auto makers pay the money back then by all means give them a loan, up here the government gave GM something like $300 million to keep jobs here in Ontario, GM took the money then turned right around and laid off 1,200 or so workers. Of course the government didn't get their money back. Things like this just piss me off.
Get your house in order BEFORE you start asking for my money.
What really gets me is how these auto makers could not see this coming. I mean damn near every Dodge comes with a Hemi, and with gas prices at $4.00 a gallon (well not anymore) I just don't see how they could not see a drop in the market.
Personally I do not want to see a hand out, if the auto makers pay the money back then by all means give them a loan, up here the government gave GM something like $300 million to keep jobs here in Ontario, GM took the money then turned right around and laid off 1,200 or so workers. Of course the government didn't get their money back. Things like this just piss me off.
Get your house in order BEFORE you start asking for my money.
Todd
Member
GM had it right with the development of Saturn. Then they goofed it all up. I had 2 SL1 sedans that got high 30's to low 40's. So what do you do? Moth ball it and create a different car based on a cavalier/cobalt that gets less mileage. They killed the brand and now want to sell it?
Chrysler saved itself with gas mileage cars. Now they are the worst for mileage.
I know as much about running the auto industry as CEO's goofing it up.
Chrysler saved itself with gas mileage cars. Now they are the worst for mileage.
I know as much about running the auto industry as CEO's goofing it up.
Brucer
New Member
i can tell you, if the automakers fail, or dont get bailed out.. all i can say is if you think the economy is bad now, just wait...
most of you dont realize how many other companies these automakers own.. i'm taliking 1000's of different companies, and not to mention the fallout/trickle down effect...
heck gm makes companies to buy companies so there name isnt on that company..
most of you dont realize how many other companies these automakers own.. i'm taliking 1000's of different companies, and not to mention the fallout/trickle down effect...
heck gm makes companies to buy companies so there name isnt on that company..
norseman
Member
If we dont bail these guys out who is going to maintain the
manufacturing IF we ever needed to produce tanks, jeeps (hummers) and all that goes along with it? Our mfg base is what made us #1 for soooo many years.. Are we gonna let china and mexico build the tools of our defense?? Be a sad sad day..They will get bailed out.
manufacturing IF we ever needed to produce tanks, jeeps (hummers) and all that goes along with it? Our mfg base is what made us #1 for soooo many years.. Are we gonna let china and mexico build the tools of our defense?? Be a sad sad day..They will get bailed out.
crossingts
New Member
I worked at a Chevy/Olds dealer when they dropped Olds it was crazy how upset people were. Even though Chevy had the same car just with different badges on it they went and boght ford or dodge cars instead.They just didnt understand it was the same car.
i agree on the Saturn comment those where great cars worked for them for a while also.The company in general made sence they needed GM to fund it for a while then "big shots" changed it to a regular car company like the rest
hopefully they figure it out soon
i agree on the Saturn comment those where great cars worked for them for a while also.The company in general made sence they needed GM to fund it for a while then "big shots" changed it to a regular car company like the rest
hopefully they figure it out soon
Mike
Well-Known Member
Being a hard-core Constitutionalist, I can't agree with any government expenditures using fiat currency, so the idea of any bail-outs for any corporation is wrong in my not-so-humble opinion.
When the Big 3 have cars sitting in storage lots they cannot sell, I question what any bail-out dollars are going to be used on, in the first place. Are they going to be building more cars people cannot get loans to purchase? Is there any sense in that?
No, I don't care to see the Big 3 hit the rocks, because we cannot afford to see that many workers out of jobs. Mortgage foreclosures are already at record numbers and expected to climb much higher, so we don't need to add to that mix by laying off even more workers. But GM is already talking about huge workforce reductions, closing 25% of their North American plants, etc., as part of their bailout plan.
I suspect we're going to see a lot of changes being added to the mix before the Big 3 get their Christmas checks. A drop in marques seems to make sense. Why does GM need anything more than Chevrolet and Cadillac anyway? I suspect the UAW will also be taking a much smaller position, if they even end up with a position. I think it's time for the UAW bring ToTo back to Kansas anyway. The rest of us have found ways to live without UAW wage/benefit packages, so it can be done.
The Ford-China division is already making noises about bringing their product to North America, so the American workforce is going to have to wake up to some harsh realities anyway. If Capital Hill (yes, that mis-spelling is intentional) is going to allow those vehicles to be sold here, then the rules are already being re-written, whether we like it or not.
Then again, we're talking Congress here - the same Congress that forced contingencies like CAFE onto the Big 3, back in the '70's. When Congress is telling an auto manufacturer how to build their product, I get worried. And with Congress involved, as we've already witnessed, anything can happen.
Failures need to be accounted for and I cannot see why the American taxpayer needs to accept accountability for poor management schemes of any corporation or business.
This could easily topple over into a political discussion and this really isn't the venue for it, but I think we are already starting to see results of a couple of Republicrat Presidents selling our souls in the signing of NAFTA and CAFTA. And I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel, so long as Congress is spending trillions of fiat currency dollars. Our grandchildren's grandchildren will be paying these debts.
End the Federal Reserve Bank! National Rally for Sound Money, November 22nd
When the Big 3 have cars sitting in storage lots they cannot sell, I question what any bail-out dollars are going to be used on, in the first place. Are they going to be building more cars people cannot get loans to purchase? Is there any sense in that?
No, I don't care to see the Big 3 hit the rocks, because we cannot afford to see that many workers out of jobs. Mortgage foreclosures are already at record numbers and expected to climb much higher, so we don't need to add to that mix by laying off even more workers. But GM is already talking about huge workforce reductions, closing 25% of their North American plants, etc., as part of their bailout plan.
I suspect we're going to see a lot of changes being added to the mix before the Big 3 get their Christmas checks. A drop in marques seems to make sense. Why does GM need anything more than Chevrolet and Cadillac anyway? I suspect the UAW will also be taking a much smaller position, if they even end up with a position. I think it's time for the UAW bring ToTo back to Kansas anyway. The rest of us have found ways to live without UAW wage/benefit packages, so it can be done.
The Ford-China division is already making noises about bringing their product to North America, so the American workforce is going to have to wake up to some harsh realities anyway. If Capital Hill (yes, that mis-spelling is intentional) is going to allow those vehicles to be sold here, then the rules are already being re-written, whether we like it or not.
Then again, we're talking Congress here - the same Congress that forced contingencies like CAFE onto the Big 3, back in the '70's. When Congress is telling an auto manufacturer how to build their product, I get worried. And with Congress involved, as we've already witnessed, anything can happen.
Failures need to be accounted for and I cannot see why the American taxpayer needs to accept accountability for poor management schemes of any corporation or business.
This could easily topple over into a political discussion and this really isn't the venue for it, but I think we are already starting to see results of a couple of Republicrat Presidents selling our souls in the signing of NAFTA and CAFTA. And I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel, so long as Congress is spending trillions of fiat currency dollars. Our grandchildren's grandchildren will be paying these debts.
End the Federal Reserve Bank! National Rally for Sound Money, November 22nd
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