Guy's Restoration after 10 years sitting

[Guy]

Good luck. Like someone said” being able to stop is a little important”. How are you going to drill the holes? Do you have a milling machine? Is there a way to register the drums on the inside surface of the hubs?

Machine shop is drilling the hub and installing the new studs i have been busy with other things still work part time on airplanes so get calls to go to the airport I will update everyone soon thanks for your help as for safety i have been a pilot aircraft A&P 50 years but your concern is always welcome

 

[Guy]

Update: Machine shop said studs I purchased fit the hub and will only need to be press in , I can't get back down to them till I get my order in for Home Depot , 25 miles away and want to get both while down in that area , I ordered a hardwood flooring materials to build a rear cover for the fuel tank and battery . I have already cut out the 1/2" plywood to fit the back of the car and go around the edges , spot for fuel fill , and a small hole for the sending unit wire . New rims and tires will be in this week .

 

[Guy]

I have looked into getting the front end Alignment with just the hubs on just checking to see if i am near where it has to be , but no matter what way i turn the tie rod ends just is not coming out right , i am thinking the steering rod that comes from the box might not be correct , and i am going to remove the tie rod and try and get that front left wheel to be centered before i go on , if anyone has done this before please give me some input , seems to me you must have to start at the steering box and work forward ?

 

[T-Test]

Seen lots of posts about toe-in/out settings, questions about how much caster , shimmy, wobbles, issues with bump-steer, and ruts/bumps in the road causing handling problems. I wanted to share my experience over last 230k miles, 27 years, numerous wrecks, 3 front axles, bent hairpins/radius rods, no front shocks for 20 years, numerous tires (heights/widths),... What I've found, many problems can be avoided if the bucket is square/straight. This allows the suspension and steering to work, but won't correct or hide poor design geometry. Don't like seeing dampeners or shocks used intentionally to mask or cover up problems. Also allows the bucket to brake and accelerate straighter, run faster, less unusual tire wear, and above all safer and more predictable handling. I'm not an alignment expert/professional but I have found this works for me. Course I'll assume standard straight front and rear axle and the independent suspension guys can modify these comments to fit their needs.

First, make sure the bucket is square (4 wheel alignment). Second, fix suspension geometry problems like steering travel, ride height, spring rates, shock function, suspension travel (watch how things move in an arch), heim movement or binding (use special washers), tightness and wear of parts, driveshaft angles,ackerman angles, ... Third, set the caster of the front axle. LASTLY: adjust the toe-in/out. I often see these steps done in reverse order (toe, caster, fix, finally align). Try not to skip Step 1. The following is my own process, uses very few tools, and works from the center of where the tire patch sits on the road (tire width and backspacing automatically taken into account). These instructions should compliment, not override, the Chassis information found in the Tech Pages.

Aligment step 1- Get it square and straight. Tools needed: 2" Masking tape, string, markers/pen, tape measure, straight edge/yardstick, and a plumb bob (plumb line), a small amount of paint and paper to write measurements (or use the diagram I created in powerpoint).




Find a clear, flat surface to work (garage floor, concrete slab,...) and enough room to drive straight onto this surface. drive the bucket straight in without turning the wheel. Once you feel comfortable that the bucket is sitting straight put it in park-- do not touch the steering and set the emergency brake/chock tires to keep the bucket from moving.



Place a piece of masking tape on the floor, at the front and back of each tire (centered). Front tire example:



Rear tire example:




Note: Precision in finding the center of the tire is crucial to placing the plumb bob (my tires have a centerline groove which makes it simple). Also try to take measurements within a 32nd of an inch on the tape measure.

Next, dip the tip of the plumb bob into the paint, so it will leave a small dot where it touches the masking tape. Hang the plum bob down the center of the tire like this:





Make sure the plum bob hangs straight down and doesn't swing/spin. Slowly lower the plumb bob till the tip touches the masking tape on the floor and leaves a nice little mark. Do this procedure to the front and rear of each tire. Do not rock or move the tires.



After all the tires are marked. Take a break while the paint dries on the masking tape. 15 minutes should be enough time to read the rest of the instructions and prepare.

Back the bucket out of the way. Should have 8 pieces of tape on the floor (front and back of each tire) and each one have a small dot. In picture, the red and black pens indicate the dots on the tape.



Place another piece of masking tape down, connecting the 2 pieces already on the floor. Should look like this



With a straight edge yardstick, draw a line connecting the paint dots (in this picture from the black pen to the red pen). Measure the distance from dot to dot and divide by 2 and put an "+" at that point (location of green marker). This is the center of the tire where the rubber meets the road.







Do this procedure for the remaining tire locations. Should look like this:

Place a piece of masking tape between the center marks "+" of each front tire and the rear tire. This will represent the axles so we can find and mark the centers. Should look like this:

Tape a string (unless you have a straight edge that's 6 feet long) to the floor, from the center of the front driver's tire to the center of the front passenger tire. Measure this distance and divide by 2. Put a mark "+" at the exact center of the axle. Do this for the rear also.

Here's the part where a friend, wife, buddy really helps out. Record all the measurements indicated by the diagram. Lots of measurements but will give you lots of information about your alignment, thrust angles (acceleration/braking), wheelbase, toe-in/out, and could also let you know if the rear axle housing is bent. Be precise on these measurements.

Now for the VISUAL stuff. Tape a string to the floor from the center of the driver's front tire to the center of the passenger rear tire. Then tape a string from the center of the passenger front tire to the center of the driver rear tire. Finally, tape a string from the center of the front axle to the center of the rear axle and find the center (length/2) of this string and put a piece of tape on the floor underneath the string and mark "+" this spot. Should look like this:

If the bucket is square, it should look like this:

Notice the cross "X" strings are just above the center mark "+" of the axle centerline. Because in this example, the centerline of my rear tires are wider than the centerline of the front tires. This is ok in this example since the crossed "X" strings met directly over the centerline string.

Make small adjustments to correct any problems and only make one or two adjustments at a time. When making adjustments, counting threads on a rodend or heim can get you real close (12, 16, 18 threads per inch). Put a date on the Diagram and make a note on the changes you made (example: front passenger hiem on radius rod unscrewed 2 turns, rear panhard lengthend 2 turns).

After making adjustments, drive the bucket and see if the adjustments helped. Then start this procedure over again. Record your new measurements. It may be somewhat time consuming but can avoid or solve many other problems which may save $$ and avoid other issues. Try not to skip step 1.

 

[T-Test]

Missing pictures in order of use.

Thanx to ToolMan and NTBA

 

[T-Test]

Turning more one way than the other.


Typically, when your T is turning sharper one way than the other your steering geometry is out of kilter. It is usually easily remidied by re-centering the components that make up the geometry.


1) output shaft in the steering box

2) Pitman arm connected to steering box

3) Steering rod connecting the pitman to the steering arm



First, roll your T and make sure it is tracking straight then disconnect the steering rod from the pitman arm. Now, spin yor steering wheel all the way one direction until it stops. Rotate the wheel opposite direction keeping count of the number of revolutions until it stops. Divide the count in half, and rotate the steering wheel to the center. Look at your pitman arm. It should be straight up & down. Meaning, the center line of the



steering box shaft is vertical to the center line hole where the steering rod connects. If the pitman are is angled towards the rear of your vehicle, you will get more LEFT steering, and if it is towards the front of your vehicle you get more RIGHT steering. Disconnect the pitman arm and reposition it to sit straight up & down, as per the illustration. now adjust the length of your steering rod to fit in the pitman without moving your wheels. This will center your pitman to the wheels and set the proper length of the steering arm. With everything connected, lift your front end and rotate the wheels left and right. Check the travel in both directions.



There is another alignment which effects your steering but also induces "bump steering". This can be more difficult to correct. Looking from the side of your vehicle, is the steering rod level to the pitman and the steering arm? If not, you have "bump steer". There should be a 90 degree angle between the centerline of the pitman and the centerline of the steering arm. If it isn't, your chasis was poorly designed, and will be fairly difficult to correct. SEE: illustration below



To correct this, you will have to either shorten/lenghten the pitman arm or raise/lower the steering arm to get it level. Or, move your steering box up/down to get the proper alignment. You will need to study your linkage setup closely and determine the best method to correct the problem. There are several pitman arm lengths available for the Corvair box. And it could be an easy fix for you. You may look at where the steering rod connects to the steering arm. Sometimes you can reverse the connection IE: move from top to bottom. This can give you another 3/4" adjustment or more.

It is important to keep "bump steer" to a minimum. Only the left front wheel can induce "bump steer" because it is where the steering rod connects. The right front is connected by the tierod.



When your left wheel moves up, in induces right bump steer. And when your left wheel goes down, it induces left bump steer. The interesting thing is, you get more bump steer to the LEFT than to the right! The reason for this is, when the actual center line of the steering arm approaches the "correct" theoretical center line, the pushing effect is amplified.

 

[T-Test]

Front End shimmy




Front end shimmy is caused by a number of things.

The combination of worn out components and or frontend alignment will cause serious problems.

First and foremost, the components that make up the steering assembly must be in good condition. These components are:

Tierod ends
Heim Joints
King Pins and bushings
Steering links
Drag link
Radius rods
Pittman arm
Steering box bushings
Hub bearings
Shackle bushings

All of these components must be in good condition. Replace any part which shows wear, or movement beyond design specifications. If in doubt, replace it.

Assuming all of your components are OK, the next step is to align the frontend. If your T Bucket has bias ply tires then you should have a maximum of 1/8" toe in. Radials should be "0" to 1/8" toe out maximum.

The final step, (and VERY important) is to balance the complete rotating assembly! Attempt to balance your tires mounted on the hubs if possible. If this option is not available to you, then balance the components separately. Your drums or rotors and tires must be accurately balanced!

Tire inflation has been a subject of controversy for a very long time. But there is a basic starting point. For spoked wheels, (motorcycle type) start at MAXIMUM inflation. Generally 45/50 lbs. For all other tires, start at 28/32 lbs. Test your T on several road surfaces especially rough roads. Inflate or deflate your tires to minimize bouncing. You will always get some bouncing, but less is better. Make sure that both front tires have EXACTLY the same air pressure.

There is a big difference between shimmy and bounce! You need to avoid shimmy at all costs! This is a self induced harmonic which will destroy your whole frontend and possibly cause a serious accident. Shimmy starts when the rotating mass (tires, wheels, hubs, and rotors or drums) harmonics go into oscillation with the steering components(links, bushings, rods, and tie rods). They "push" against each other causing a violent back & fourth motion (Shimmy). Because this motion is self induced, it progresses until something breaks, or over come by an external force (IE: hit the brakes and slow down). It is imperative that your frontend be in absolutely perfect working order.

Have you ever rolled a tire around your garage, or down a street before? If you have, then you may recall how the surface governed the direction the tire rolled. This same condition exists on your T Bucket. To overcome this, a frontend alignment is setup to create an equal force on both front wheels. This effect is called "toe in" or "toe out". This equal force tends to overcome most road surfaces, making the frontend responsive to the drivers command. However, too much of either can create a new set of problems. Tire scuffing will be the first on the list. Then there is the problem of shimmy. Toe in tends to cause shimmy more than toe out. Zero toe in/toe out will virtually eliminate shimmy however your frontend will feel "loose". In other words, your car will walk back and forth while cruising. This effect is usually manageable, but annoying. Regardless which "toe" effect you need, limit the adjustment to a maximum of 1/8" The next adjustment available to you is "CASTER". This is the tilting of your king pin bosses. This caster effect tends to make your front wheels follow the centerline of the front axle. Caster is good for helping your T track straight. You always want the caster effect to "follow" your axle. You adjust your caster by adjusting the length of the UPPER clevises on your radius rods. Typically, about 5 degrees of caster is plenty, and in some cases 2 or 3 degrees is all thats required. Have you ever pushed a shopping cart around a grocery store, and noticed sometimes the front wheels shimmy? Thats way too much caster! So go easy on your caster adjustment. Finally, there is camber... you can't change it easily because it's built into the king pin bosses. However, as your king pin bushings wear out, you induce more camber. So check your king pins & bushings occasionally for wear.

 

[Guy]

Front End shimmy

wow so much information will be trying everything you mentioned i hope i can print this out Thanks Guy


Front end shimmy is caused by a number of things.

The combination of worn out components and or frontend alignment will cause serious problems.

First and foremost, the components that make up the steering assembly must be in good condition. These components are:

Tierod ends
Heim Joints
King Pins and bushings
Steering links
Drag link
Radius rods
Pittman arm
Steering box bushings
Hub bearings
Shackle bushings

All of these components must be in good condition. Replace any part which shows wear, or movement beyond design specifications. If in doubt, replace it.

Assuming all of your components are OK, the next step is to align the frontend. If your T Bucket has bias ply tires then you should have a maximum of 1/8" toe in. Radials should be "0" to 1/8" toe out maximum.

The final step, (and VERY important) is to balance the complete rotating assembly! Attempt to balance your tires mounted on the hubs if possible. If this option is not available to you, then balance the components separately. Your drums or rotors and tires must be accurately balanced!

Tire inflation has been a subject of controversy for a very long time. But there is a basic starting point. For spoked wheels, (motorcycle type) start at MAXIMUM inflation. Generally 45/50 lbs. For all other tires, start at 28/32 lbs. Test your T on several road surfaces especially rough roads. Inflate or deflate your tires to minimize bouncing. You will always get some bouncing, but less is better. Make sure that both front tires have EXACTLY the same air pressure.

There is a big difference between shimmy and bounce! You need to avoid shimmy at all costs! This is a self induced harmonic which will destroy your whole frontend and possibly cause a serious accident. Shimmy starts when the rotating mass (tires, wheels, hubs, and rotors or drums) harmonics go into oscillation with the steering components(links, bushings, rods, and tie rods). They "push" against each other causing a violent back & fourth motion (Shimmy). Because this motion is self induced, it progresses until something breaks, or over come by an external force (IE: hit the brakes and slow down). It is imperative that your frontend be in absolutely perfect working order.

Have you ever rolled a tire around your garage, or down a street before? If you have, then you may recall how the surface governed the direction the tire rolled. This same condition exists on your T Bucket. To overcome this, a frontend alignment is setup to create an equal force on both front wheels. This effect is called "toe in" or "toe out". This equal force tends to overcome most road surfaces, making the frontend responsive to the drivers command. However, too much of either can create a new set of problems. Tire scuffing will be the first on the list. Then there is the problem of shimmy. Toe in tends to cause shimmy more than toe out. Zero toe in/toe out will virtually eliminate shimmy however your frontend will feel "loose". In other words, your car will walk back and forth while cruising. This effect is usually manageable, but annoying. Regardless which "toe" effect you need, limit the adjustment to a maximum of 1/8" The next adjustment available to you is "CASTER". This is the tilting of your king pin bosses. This caster effect tends to make your front wheels follow the centerline of the front axle. Caster is good for helping your T track straight. You always want the caster effect to "follow" your axle. You adjust your caster by adjusting the length of the UPPER clevises on your radius rods. Typically, about 5 degrees of caster is plenty, and in some cases 2 or 3 degrees is all thats required. Have you ever pushed a shopping cart around a grocery store, and noticed sometimes the front wheels shimmy? Thats way too much caster! So go easy on your caster adjustment. Finally, there is camber... you can't change it easily because it's built into the king pin bosses. However, as your king pin bushings wear out, you induce more camber. So check your king pins & bushings occasionally for wear.

 

[iajjpop]

I have had chrome headers for 15 years years and they look good ,I use the original purple metal polish on them ,often. I was going to a car show and hit a coon with the front tire and wasn’t able to stop and clean the header . When I stopped it had stuck to the header ,may be a 3” spot that I couldn t get shiny. It is just a discolored area. Down on the bottom of header.i can live with it.

 

[Jim B]

Great story, I had to laugh.

I was going to a car show and hit a coon with the front tire and .

 

[T-Test]

Ackerman Steering <#p359>


Maybe this will help some of you guys to understand the Ackerman
principle and how it affects T-Buckets. The basic theory is that the
front wheels of a 2 wheel steer vehicle with the steering on the front
should remain tangent to the turning circles of each individual wheel.
It is theorized that the center point of these circles falls on a line
that is the same as the centerline of the rear axle housing projected
out into space. The center of the both arcs is at the same point on the
rear axle centerline. That centerpoint slides along that line as the
amount of steering input is changed. In other words, on a small amount
of turn the centerpoint is way out there, in a hard turn the center is
closer to the car. In the straight-ahead position the centerpoint is at
infinity. That's way, way, way out there! It's time for a little drawing
to keep from confusing you with this attempt at an explanation.

AP2.jpg
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As you can see, the left wheel turns on a shorter radius circle and
needs to turn sharper than the right wheel to remain tangent to its
turning circle. Why do these wheels need to stay tangent? That places
the least amount of side loading on the tires and suspension components.
In other words tire and parts wear is going to be minimized. How do we
get the geometry such that this desired effect is achieved? Fortunately
Mr. Ackerman came along and figured out that if he arranged the
mechanical parts of the steering system so that the pivot points of the
linkage (tie rod) that connected the two front wheels were closer than
the pivot points for the front wheel mounting assembly (spindles with
their kingpins), it would affect how the wheels reacted when turning was
occurring. He apparently noticed that if he made these points such that
if you drew a line from the center of the kingpin to the center of the
rear axle housing and placed the tie rod ends center on that line, it
would give the desired change in the angles that the two wheels turned.
Old Mr. Ackerman found that he had a principle that applied universally.
I bet he was pretty proud!

AP1.jpg
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Time for another illustration. O.K., automobiles steered fine and
everyone was happy. And along comes Joe Hot Rod and he decides that his
heap needs to be nice and low. Hey, no problem. Let's move the spring
back behind the axle and down nice and low. Looks great, in da weeds!
Oops, small problem, no place for the tie rod to run back there. Imagine
that you can see a "great idea" light bulb over Joe's head. Hey that's
easy, just swap the spindles side for side and put the tie rod on the
front. Look, the wheels still are connected and turn when you give the
steering wheel a twist. That will cure all of my problems.

AP7.jpg
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Well not quite Joe. You have just wiped out Mr. Ackerman's principle.
Your tie rod attachment points (tie rod end or heim joint) no longer
fall on that imaginary line. So what happens now? Well, either the
inside wheel does what it is supposed to do, or the outside wheel
behaves correctly, but not both at the same time. So now old Joe has
that nice set of new high dollar tires grinding themselves up on the
local asphalt every time he goes around a corner. The car also has a
tendency to get a little quirky because the wheels can't make up their
minds which one is going to be in charge of where they are going to point.

AP3.jpg
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Is old Joe just screwed on this deal now, stuck with this problem? Nope!
He just needs to get those pesky attachment points back over on Mr.
Ackerman's imaginary line. It works just as well on a front mounted tie
rod as a rear mounted one. Remember, Mr. Ackerman found out that it was
universal. It depends on what he has for front-end hardware as to what
he can do to correct this situation. Early Ford spindles with the built
on steering arms can be heated and bent to get back out there where they
should be. Just be darn careful doing it; if you don't know what you're
doing find someone who does and have them do it. The aftermarket offers
some parts that can take care of this problem. Sometimes special design
parts will need to be made. A lot depends on the individual situation.
Brake configurations (calipers and rotors mostly) can create some
interesting obstacles. If you can't get out there where Mr. Ackerman
says you should be, at least get as close as you can.

AP4.jpg
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Lo and behold, old Joe made the changes and guess what? His lo and in da
weeds bucket is cruising along life's highway is fine style. Tire life
is improved, steering is less quirky (still needs a little work on the
bumpsteer deal) and he is all smiles.

AP6.jpg
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Well, old Joe is not alone on this deal, he's got lots of buddies with
the same problem and they haven't done a thing about it. So what
happens? Well they just go cruising along…of course they stop by the
tire store a little more often than Joe and leave some of their hard
earned. And they have to pay a little closer attention to where their
missile is headed when all of the guys are out for a cruise and find
that great little road with all of the curves that just beg for a guy to
open it up just a tad….a tad? Yah right!

By George Barnes