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Lean out under load?

-------Any luck yet?------You've been given the best advice. Troubleshooting problems takes time. Thats just the way it is.
Your mechanic friend had some experience behind him. NOT everyone can build a motor....and have it run like it should.


ya I know.

Good maybe bad news.
lol.
OK last thing for the night.
Sprayed that carb cleaner everywhere. No difference.
So just a thought. I losend ths dis. and adjusted the timing up. So now the line is about 1 1/2 inches past 12*. No vac. adv. connected.
Idel is at 1500 and vac. is 16". No more backfire.

What does that mean?
 
Nobody has mentioned the vacuum secondary spring as a possible adjustment. So, if you have a vacuum secondary, read your carb install manual about that. There is a spring kit that includes 7 springs for fine tuning the secondary opening point. If you've got an agressive cam and auto tranny, the stock spring is probably not the right one. Check Summit Racing part number HLY-20-13. Read the instructions that you can download. Chime in guys.
 
humm. Is the timing tab for a 1980 engine different then one for a 1969?
Just wonder if maybe my tab or the mark is wrong.
 
Be my guess you have a damper that's marked w/ the timing mark for older style pointer on new style mark. get a piston stop & find where TDC really is !



dave
 
Be my guess you have a damper that's marked w/ the timing mark for older style pointer on new style mark. get a piston stop & find where TDC really is !



dave

That I believe was covered in a previous post by oino, you remember? About the timing tab? We covered alot of these things....even the oil level thing.....
 
Boy, it surely does sound like a timing problem. Turn the idle down to 800 or 900. Twist the distributor for highest vacuum, should be 18" or more with a stock cam, maybe less with a hotter one. Go for a test drive, and take it easy and be alert for knocking. Having said that, it sure would be nice to know the actual timing, and that means finding TDC. I did it on my crate motor by pulling a head, using a piston stop and a degree wheel. I sleep better now.
 
Does the mech and vac advance work in this dist? Has it been checked? Did you check the total timing in the motor?

I'm with you Ron....for all we know, his vacuum leak might be his vacuum advance diaphram. :dunno:
 
oino, do you know how to check for the things Ron asked about? Hook up your timing light, look at the balancer. pinch off the vacuum hose to the dist., does it change? Now, rev the motor....does it change???
 
Found this too:

The secondary opening rate is determined by the spring in the secondary diaphragm. A soft spring will allow the secondaries to open sooner. Install softer springs until the car develops a slight stumble from the opening rate, then go back one spring level. This will allow the secondaries to open as quick as possible while avoiding a stumble.
You cannot normally get the vacuum secondaries to open by flicking the throttle and rev’ing the rpm with the car in neutral. This is not a valid test of the functionality of the secondaries.
With our overpowered cars, the engine does not see the load that it does in a 3,500 lb car. So when you "Step On It", the engine can pick up revs very fast without having the secondaries open. I can make my engine backfire on the test stand if I open the throttle real fast. Because there is no load on the engine, the secondaries do not open and the engine goes real lean. So I'm guessing from the above that you might need a softer spring in the secondary system. A spring kit is cheap....about $12 at Summit.​
 
oino, do you know how to check for the things Ron asked about? Hook up your timing light, look at the balancer. pinch off the vacuum hose to the dist., does it change? Now, rev the motor....does it change???


Ya. :)
I'll check it tomorrow.
 
Ok, after help from LKGTO, Got the car going. Idels fine, and drives fine. Untill I punch it, or try to rev it up in gear to about 3000rpm. Then it backfires out the carb.
I did a vacuum check and it was at 9. I read on Holley's site that with a auto trans, and 9" of vac. I should use a 4.5" power valve. I changed that.
Idel is really really good now. But still backfires out the carb under load.
Timing set at 10. also tryed 12.
I was reading that its going lean under load. Thats what causes the backfire. If thats true. Could the wrong size mechanical fuel pump cause it.
I'm using a fuel pump from a 5.4L.. 6.5psi.
The one for a 5.7L. 9psi.
Maybe under load its not getting enough fuel.

Other then that.
Anything else?

I listened to the sound bite and based on an allowance for poor sound quality I think its time to go back to basics. As stated RV cams should have a higher manifold vacuum at idle. This lower vacuum can result from several conditions;

Your cam is really more radical than you think. Do you have the spec sheet and did the numbers match? And did you install the cam? A cam that is installed one tooth off will still run, but low vacuum and poor response to normal ignition settings are the results. One should always rotate the crank two full turns to check for timing mark alignment. Verifying this is a biggie and not easily checked without the proper tools or removal of the timing chain cover lets check some other things first.

Do the timing mark on the harmonic balancer and the timing indicator match when the #1 piston is at top dead center? This can be checked by removing the #1 plug and inserting a piston stop. Then by hand rotate the engine clockwise until it stops. Mark the balancer at the 0 timing mark. Now rotate the engine counter clockwise until it stops. Again mark the balancer at the ) timing mark. These marks should be equal distance from the factory mark on the balancer if the timing indicator is correctly positioned. These are serious problems and should be addressed after easier solutions have failed.

Properly adjust your valve lifters. This needs to be done on a hot engine and I like the following procedure although it is messy. Remov one rocker cover at a time and with the engine idling back off (turn the retainer nut counter clockwise) on one rocker at a time until the lifter begins to clatter. Then slowly turn the nut clockwise until the clatter stops. For the street continue to turn it down one eighth of a turn. This eliminates the possibility of a tight lifter causing the backfire and excessive cam wear.

Next go over every aspect of the ignition. check the cap and rotor for cracks and carbon tracking. Also check the coil to rotor contact in the center of the cap. Check the centrifical and vacuum advance mechanisms for proper movement. Check the reluctor to pickup gap Also check the plug wires for spark leakage. HEI coils are too powerful for some types of plug wines and spark will jump to from wire to wire. I have seen this problem where metal wire looms are used or where two plug wires touch. This an be checked at night in a dark place. If you are using mechanical and vacuum advance a timing setting at idle with the vacuum advance disconnected of 6 to 10 degrees is sufficient. HEI distributors should be hooked up to a ported vacuum source. Your vacuum advance can be checked by leaving it disconnected and rev the engine to see if this eliminates the backfire. Also check wiring connections to the engine for shorts that might occur from engine vibrations.

A vacuum leak that drops several inches of mercury should be fairly easy to find. Any of the types of liquid stated that are applied to the head to manifold should readily be sucked into the intake port. If the leak is in the valley area under the manifold the spark plugs should show signs of burning oil. Because the amount of oil burned may be small the plugs may only show whitish crystal deposits.

A careful check of the basis will isolate the problem so you an repair it.

Al




EDIT:
oh ya.
350. RV cam, HEI dis. Had rebuilt. all new insides, other the crank.
 
You could take no. 1 spark plug out, set timing @ tdc (top dead center) fireing, put a screw driver in the spark plug hole touching the piston, then gently rock the piston back and forth 20 degrees and see if when the piston "feels" like it is at tdc, the timing marks correspond. If they do not, need to look into the balancer and timing pointer.

BTY, who "rebuilt" this engine and what do THEY have to say about these problems? Did they install the manifold? Was it given back to you as a complete, ready to run engine?
How "big" is the cam? Do you have a timing card or cam number? Are these people reputable? Or a small shop that also also repairs Yugos and Fiats and Peugeots?

John
 
By any chance does the timing cover have a tube welded on it like this?
late_model_cover.gif

 
That I believe was covered in a previous post by oino, you remember? About the timing tab? We covered alot of these things....even the oil level thing.....
Metal, this has gotten to the point that I don't remember what has been done to this engine and quite frankly at this point I'm burnt out. Specs seem to change by the moment, fixes and possible diagnoses are suggested but not carried through, there are "oh, by the way I changed things without telling any one" type of deals. There are too many chefs in this stew, not bad chefs, just too many. I'm bowing out. Be interesting to see what happens.

John
 
Yes O.F.J., I know how you feel....me myself, I'm done also....just trying to see if the fella knows how to check a few things, troubleshooting wise. We can only just hint at whats going on here since we can't get any list going here....ya know, write it down, check it off.

My hat is off to LKGTO, he was able to really help out this member. I'm just complicating things here now....I'm handing the baton off....

I gotta get a old Nost. Nitro Altered running the next few days....Frames gotta be inspected and signed off on....racing time is almost here.
 
Metal, this has gotten to the point that I don't remember what has been done to this engine and quite frankly at this point I'm burnt out. Specs seem to change by the moment, fixes and possible diagnoses are suggested but not carried through, there are "oh, by the way I changed things without telling any one" type of deals. There are too many chefs in this stew, not bad chefs, just too many. I'm bowing out. Be interesting to see what happens.
Agreed. That is why I ~tried~ to explain how he should go about getting the proper power valve in the carb. I tried to offer a step-by-step roadmap, so he wouldn't get lost. Once he has the proper power valve in the carb, then (and ONLY THEN) would he be able to continue his trouble-shooting process.

Within a post or two, the issue of leaning out under a load suddenly became somehow related to oil level in the pan. :wall:

Excuse me, whilst I go do my best Pontius Pilate imitation.
 
There are times in all of our lives where we have to stop what we are doing and admit that we can't do it right. Nobody can know how to do everything. That's why there are specialists in all aspects of life. I can do carpenter work, electric and hang drywall; but, when it comes to the finishing I'd use twice as much mud and three times the time as it takes my brother-in-law who's been a taper for 25 years. We all have to take it to the shop at some time or another.

Oino....take your project to a shop that specializes or is very good with carburetors. In an hour or two, they should have it running as good as it possibly can. If there is a problem thay can't solve, they'll tell you who to take it to. There are just too many variables in play to be resolved on a forum where nobody can see, touch and hear the problem. I've gotten a lot of help here, offered advice too. It's a great forum for learning. But, the members here cannot solve all the issues that we might deal with on our projects. Sometimes, you have to pay for the service of experts. There should be someone near you.
 

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