No need for a jig when welding up frame?

[mattraff]

Hi, all.

Finally decided it's time to build the hotrod I've wanted since high school... Found Youngster's plans and decided that it'd be totally doable to build my own frame. Many thanks to Youngster and the bucketeers here for sharing the knowlege!

My question is about everyone's practicle experience when welding up the frame? Can I pretty much avoid any warpage just by clamping the rails together stitch welding 'em? I havn't got a lot of experience with rectangular tubing, plan on using .120 wall.

Any tips or advice for someone who doesn't have a table large enough for a jig?

Tubing is ordered, will share pics as the build progresses, it'll be slooow though.

-Matt

 

[putz]

Tack it first then keep measuring to make sure it stays square. Enjoy building a dream.

 

[Youngster]

If you weld the sides up first it's a big help. If you are tapering the front of the rails, set the frame up side down to add the front and rear xmembers. Don't forget to slide the front perch gussets on befor tacking. I use 3 levels and several clamps at this point. Measure 3 times and weld once!

BTW ... my welding table is 24" x 22". It has 21 knoches in it,one for each frame welded on it.

Ron

 

[GreggDaniels]

I found a couple of straight 2x6's, nailed pieces between them to make a ladder then nailed some plywood to that for a flat surface. It's crude but a lot straighter than my garage floor. Your right about reducing warpage by clamping the pieces together. What I did with mine is to weld across the edges of the tubes first then weld the sides as that will help keep the rails from bending. Once you get some weld on the sides you can put pieces of flatbar between the rails where you clamp them to make room for the weld. Like you said it will be slow. Take your time and don't build up much heat and you'll be alright. When your ready to weld the crossmembers to the rails put them back on the table to keep them level. One nice thing about the wooden ladder style table is if it has a little twist you can nail or screw it to a set of wooden horses with some shims or whatever you need to get it level. Because your going to have a tapered frame you can throw out the square and just use your tape measure to keep it square. Measure a lot that way if it does start to move you can put some heat in a different part of the frame to hopefully move it back to where you need it. Being absolutely square isn't critical because there's lots of room in the suspension to get everything tracking right you just want to make sure its level. What I did is after the frame was welded I put some temporary bracing in and welded fish plates on the inside and outside of the kickup joints for strength. Some guys only put them on the inside which is ok too but you should have some type of reenforcement. When your welding your suspension brackets or engine and transmission crossmembers on make all your measurements from one spot. I went from the front crossmember for all measurements and just let the back of the frame be wherever it wanted to be. (Disclaimer, I'm not a professional car builder.) I've only built the one I have now and I only have 215 miles on it but I have been a weldor for about 27 years and have been building up to 35' booms now for quite a while now and while it's on a bigger scale it's the same basic principle and believe me, if you were to get a twist in a 35' boom and they could't cover for it in the machine shop the boss wouldn't be happy with about 10,000 lbs of scrap. It hasn't happened yet but too much heat on one side or the other and you can get a banana shape out of it. There are guys on here that have been building buckets for years now that can give you more and better advice than me but if you just take your time and don't build up too much heat in one spot you'll be alright.

 

[mattraff]

BTW ... my welding table is 24" x 22". It has 21 knoches in it,one for each frame welded on it.
Ron

lol, that's awesome... thanks for the tips all!

FWIW, I'm planning on 23" wide at the front crossmember & 26" in the rear, probably not very noticable, but hope to give it a bit more 'attitude'. Can't imagine it'd cause a problem and should still fit a channeled speedway body.

Tubing's on backorder, will share more when I'm underway - sure that I'll have lots of questions.

 

[RPM]

lol, that's awesome... thanks for the tips all!

FWIW, I'm planning on 23" wide at the front crossmember & 26" in the rear, probably not very noticable, but hope to give it a bit more 'attitude'. Can't imagine it'd cause a problem and should still fit a channeled speedway body.

Tubing's on backorder, will share more when I'm underway - sure that I'll have lots of questions.

23" wide at the front could cause some serious problems. What engine are you going to run? We make our frames from 2 x 3 tube and they are 26 1/2" on the outside. This give us 22 1/2 between the rails. This gets real tight on low alternators, starters, fuel pumps etc. Just some food for thought, before you cut that steel.

 

[sstock]

23" wide at the front could cause some serious problems. What engine are you going to run? We make our frames from 2 x 3 tube and they are 26 1/2" on the outside. This give us 22 1/2 between the rails. This gets real tight on low alternators, starters, fuel pumps etc. Just some food for thought, before you cut that steel.

Yeah, mine is 26.5" outside to outside, had problems fitting a high volume fuel pump in (the inlet brass fitting hit the frame rail) small block Chev. had to go with a stock carter pump. Then on the otherside, the alterntor barely fits with minimal room for engine movement.

 

[Youngster]

A 23" wide frame is Ok but a wider frame will open up more room for accessories. I have built many 23" wide frames but I tend to mount my SBC higher than most. That way clearence isn't as big a problem. I like to see the front xmember just slightly higher than the axle. The last 3 frames have been 24" at the front xmember and 26" at the rear xmember. As Putz said, " tack first". This is also why I tell people to have as many of your major parts on hand before you cut your first piece of tubing. My mock-up block also has most of the small parts like fuel pump, altinater, starter, distributor, etc. in place.

Now for squaring and leveling, If you build the sides first, it easy to have them come out the same length. After I tack the front and rear xmembers in place, I measure and remeasure corner to corner. At this point I walk away for a few minutes and then remeasure again. When I'm satisfied I set 3 levels on the frame. If they're not plumb, then adjustments are made. At this point I tack a K type temporary xmember just forward of the kick. I will not weld it untill I am level and within 1/16" on the cross measuring. Everything you add to your car is somehow connected to the frame. Please take the time to insure it is square and level. You'll thank yourself later.

Ron

 

[mattraff]

OK, got it. Thanks - I'll go wider up front.

Will tack with a temp X-member 'till I know all the the motor, trans & accessories will fit.

 

[GreggDaniels]

There's some discussion on another bucket forum concerning frame kickup designs. Here's a couple of designs that they were kicking (no pun intended) around that are better and stronger than the traditional design. The one on the top would probably be the easiest just a little extra welding to cap the ends of the tubes. You can do your frame however you want but I just wanted to give you a little food for thought.

Here's what I did with mine when I built the frame in '94. I just got it on the road this year. Yeah it took a while.

 

[RESINATOR]

The top drawing for the Rear Kickups is the way we have been doing all of our Model A frames and most of our one-offs (Custom dimension T Bucket frames.) It is very strong but requires more work because of the caps, plus the weld filling and grinding. the rounded corners of the tubing make certain that there is enough weld on the joint even when ground flush. The doubling Plates are the only way to go when using a higher than normal kick-up (or if your looking for that extra insurance on the thinner rail material), we normally put them on the inside of the framerail just because they look better that way.

Jerry

 

[mattraff]

Yipee! Frame's pretty much done...

And straight! Thanks for the help.

 

[Youngster]

Nice work! Keep us posted on your progress.

Ron

 

[SCCustomRides]

Very nice work.

 

[mattraff]

Thanks.

Not much work on the car lately - bought a donor chebby S-10 with a 283 & TH350 in it so I can use pretty much all of it's drive train. Been spending my time getting it running right and then enjoying cruising in it before the canabalizing begins.

Also ordered a front suspension kit from Wintec & bought a 26 T coupe body. We'll see what kind of modifications will be needed to the frame when I get the body up here from California next month. Won't be a bucket anymore, but I hope I can still hang out.

 

[sstock]

Nice work indeed, looks to be plenty strong.