Parts frustration

[fletcherson]

OK, Mike gets the "I told you so award". I am a guy who likes to touch, feel, smell, etc... when purchasing stuff, but it is very difficult to do these days. There are fewer hi performance parts stores and the ones that are left don't stock stuff like days gone by thanks to the ole internet, inventory tax, global economy, etc... So like a lot of folks, I resort to ordering stuff from various on line vendors. I have several that I deal with routinely that are very good, but there are times when I resort to fleabay for things not available from my regulars. I recently ordered several items from various sellers on fleabay and spent a significant amount of time researching the items and making my selections. I don't buy cheap crap, I try to get quality stuff and pay accordingly. I normally do ok. Not this time. Out of four "premium" items with premium prices, only one will not be returned, and that is only because it's not really worth the shipping to do so. I got defective name brand parts from the manufactures sponsored dealer, imitation plastic bs that was advertised as "wood", and very poorly cast and polished aluminum parts that I paid the extra price for because it was advertised as " premium quality finish" and it won't even fit anyways. What will it all come to? Where are guys like us to get stuff that's worth installing? Anyways, I had one of those " I should have stayed in bed days" and dishonest A. H. vendors played a big part in it. If you have a local trustworthy vendor that supplies your goodies, and they are rare, treat them well so they will be there for you!

 

[bobs66440]

Sorry for your misfortune. Who are these vendors so no one else gets stuck?

 

[Zandoz]

It's not just parts for this hobby. My other hobby is model railroading. I've found it almost impossible to get locomotives that do not have to be rebuilt on arrival...even though they are promoted as "ready to run". A week ago we switched cable/internet/phone providers. The switch should not have taken more than an hour to swap their equipment for the old. It took 6 hours of swapping and reswapping new equipmnent to get a functioning splitter, modem/router, and 4 set boxes. Non-existant or pharse quality control is epidemic.

 

[fletcherson]

Sorry for your misfortune. Who are these vendors so no one else gets stuck?

One was a major steering wheel company, the actual company is making it right, so I won't name them, but the distributor was a pain, and you can't buy direct, one was a distributor for sparco wheels, they are ok to deal with, but the products are shi&, in my opinion, unless you want a expensive priced, cheap looking copy of a nice steering wheel, the other is a independent distributor for aluminum hilborn scoops, the individual was ok about the return, but the product was horrible for being a center piece type of part, and even if the finish wasn't important, it won't fit dual holleys that it's designed and advertised for. I really don't understand it, how do they make any money if the crap won't even work? By the way, I'm told all of these type parts, even the ones sold by the speed shops are made at this un branded plant, I did try to do my homework, I was just mislead. There is no honor anymore. Buyer be ware and make your purchases with a card that allows an additional layer of protection when, not if you get ripped.

 

[Mike]

I hate to be in that 'I told you so' position, but I spent half a lifetime in the high performance automotive aftermarket, and I've seen every trick in the book.

I would get guys walk into the shop, wanting to-the-penny estimates on building an engine, and as soon as they would get a list of what we were going to use and what the prices would be, out the door they would go. Two weeks later, they would be back, carrying in all of the parts they had sourced for themselves. And some of that stuff was outright junk.

Anyone who has worked in manufacturing knows there are going to be junk parts. Someone misses the set-up on a machine, someone lets a machine get away from them, etc. That stuff gets tossed onto the floor and the machine keeps churning out parts. But what about all the money invested in that part that got screwed up?

There used to be an individual who sold crankshafts from what has been a rather popular brand-name manufacturer. Frankly, I always felt their success was just another marketing ploy, because nine times out of ten, we would have to turn their new cranks, just to get the journals round. Rods would come in the door with tight sizing and egg-shaped bores. The stuff was just low-rent. Anyway, if they happened to screw up a crank, they would sell it at scrap prices to this eBay scammer. If the crank had a main journal, or a rod throw that was knackered, he would turn that journal to whatever undersize it took to make it round. And then, he would advertise this brand-new (which it was), never-used (which it wasn't), brand-name crankshaft, at a ridiculously low price. I can only wonder how many of these boat anchors he actually sold, because we saw a couple of them in our own shop. Naturally, if you bought a brand-new crank, then you just 'knew' the journals were all standard, so you would buy a set of standard bearings and would throw the crank in without checking clearances (that new stuff is all 100% right, after all). When you would drive over the crank, and learn how you had been duped, you would threaten the character that sold you the junk with legal action, at which point he would tell you to pound sand, because you had received exactly what you had ordered.

I knew a guy, from up in southern Michigan, who ran an A/EA Competition Eliminator car. This guy bought all the floor sweepings from one of the mini-starter manufacturers (read 'assemblers'). He would tear everything apart and then go through the good parts to build starters, which he sold at slightly discounted prices. The price was low enough that you didn't care if there was no 90-day warranty, and he made enough to race on.

Another guy, who for reasons you will soon understand, moved around a lot, ran a B/A Cutlass in Competition Eliminator. This guy was the ultimate scammer, but by using some smart marketing catch-phrases and not paying any taxes on his income, he raced all over the country for a couple of years. One of his scams was selling 'surplus, over-stocked clothes dryers'. He had those wee classified ads in the backs of dozens of magazines, offering his clothes dryers at extremely low prices. Of course, when you ponied up the cash to order one, you would receive two eye-hooks and a length of cord, to hang a clothes line.

Right about now, most of you are shaking your heads, wondering how people could be so gullible as to get caught up in these sales scams, But I am talking about scams that have made incredible amounts of income for the scammers, which proves there really is one born, every minute. And how many times have you risked your hard-earned dollars on something that sounded too good to be true?

 

[butch27]

I remember that scam about the "Solar" powered clothes dryers. LOL

 

[fletcherson]

I hate to be in that 'I told you so' position, but I spent half a lifetime in the high performance automotive aftermarket, and I've seen every trick in the book.

I would get guys walk into the shop, wanting to-the-penny estimates on building an engine, and as soon as they would get a list of what we were going to use and what the prices would be, out the door they would go. Two weeks later, they would be back, carrying in all of the parts they had sourced for themselves. And some of that stuff was outright junk.

Anyone who has worked in manufacturing knows there are going to be junk parts. Someone misses the set-up on a machine, someone lets a machine get away from them, etc. That stuff gets tossed onto the floor and the machine keeps churning out parts. But what about all the money invested in that part that got screwed up?

There used to be an individual who sold crankshafts from what has been a rather popular brand-name manufacturer. Frankly, I always felt their success was just another marketing ploy, because nine times out of ten, we would have to turn their new cranks, just to get the journals round. Rods would come in the door with tight sizing and egg-shaped bores. The stuff was just low-rent. Anyway, if they happened to screw up a crank, they would sell it at scrap prices to this eBay scammer. If the crank had a main journal, or a rod throw that was knackered, he would turn that journal to whatever undersize it took to make it round. And then, he would advertise this brand-new (which it was), never-used (which it wasn't), brand-name crankshaft, at a ridiculously low price. I can only wonder how many of these boat anchors he actually sold, because we saw a couple of them in our own shop. Naturally, if you bought a brand-new crank, then you just 'knew' the journals were all standard, so you would buy a set of standard bearings and would throw the crank in without checking clearances (that new stuff is all 100% right, after all). When you would drive over the crank, and learn how you had been duped, you would threaten the character that sold you the junk with legal action, at which point he would tell you to pound sand, because you had received exactly what you had ordered.

I knew a guy, from up in southern Michigan, who ran an A/EA Competition Eliminator car. This guy bought all the floor sweepings from one of the mini-starter manufacturers (read 'assemblers'). He would tear everything apart and then go through the good parts to build starters, which he sold at slightly discounted prices. The price was low enough that you didn't care if there was no 90-day warranty, and he made enough to race on.

Another guy, who for reasons you will soon understand, moved around a lot, ran a B/A Cutlass in Competition Eliminator. This guy was the ultimate scammer, but by using some smart marketing catch-phrases and not paying any taxes on his income, he raced all over the country for a couple of years. One of his scams was selling 'surplus, over-stocked clothes dryers'. He had those wee classified ads in the backs of dozens of magazines, offering his clothes dryers at extremely low prices. Of course, when you ponied up the cash to order one, you would receive two eye-hooks and a length of cord, to hang a clothes line.

Right about now, most of you are shaking your heads, wondering how people could be so gullible as to get caught up in these sales scams, But I am talking about scams that have made incredible amounts of income for the scammers, which proves there really is one born, every minute. And how many times have you risked your hard-earned dollars on something that sounded too good to be true?

You know, I expect that kind of stuff and watch for it. I also don't expect gold for lead prices, but it is getting very hard to separate the good from the bad. These guys can't be happy with just tricking gullible folks, they now outright misrepresent and make false statements that trick even street wise guys, as I like to consider myself to be. Technology makes it easy for people to duplicate and create very good looking ads, etc... And there seems to be ananomity that allows them to be insulated from their crimes. I guarantee if they pulled this stuff on me in person, it would be the last time. But the on line community makes it difficult to hold them accountable, and even if they refund or exchange, the shipping, aggregation, and time spent is ridiculous. It used to be this stuff was present, but not prevalent or mainstream. Now it seems as if it is common place and the ratio of good verses bad is inverted. I am not a proponent of over regulating and controls, but there needs to be some resolve to this crap. One out of four parts being bad or wrong is unacceptable, but all of them? Again, I spent several hours researching and selecting this stuff, not the cheapest, not the first one I saw. I even corresponded with the seller about the breather prior to ordering it. It makes me gun shy to buy anything, which will just punish the honest vendors and make my life more difficult.

 

[Mike]

You know, I expect that kind of stuff and watch for it.

Yet you were still caught up by their tactics, aye?

...they now outright misrepresent and make false statements that trick even street wise guys, as I like to consider myself to be.

Heh, what you do not realize is the 'street wise' customers are the easiest marks.

I guarantee if they pulled this stuff on me in person, it would be the last time.

Like having it happen the way it already did won't ensure that would be the last time???

And believe me, I am not trying to single you out, because most people have had the same bad experiences. Sometimes is it just a simple mistake on someone's part, and they sent you a part for a 1982 model year, rather than a 1992 model year. Stuff happens.

It makes me gun shy to buy anything, which will just punish the honest vendors and make my life more difficult.

A quick story - for about seven years, back in the late 1970's and early 1980's, I managed an NAPA store, in West Lafayette. The guy that owned the operation was the original wooden shoe. Ever hear the joke about being so tight with money, a person could squeeze excrement out of a buffalo nickel? That was this fellow. He said something to me once, and at the time, I called him on it. He told me to look out, at all the traffic driving by the shop (we were located on a rather busy state highway) and to always remember those people were all con-masters and thieves. I told him that was the saddest commentary I had ever heard on the human race. Today, I look out the window and I remember that everyone I see is a con-master and a thief.

<shrug>

Rule Number One - There are no honest people, until they have demonstrated their level of honesty.
Rule Number Two - There are no exceptions to Rule Number One.
Rule Number Three - It is easier to resolve problems when dealing with someone face-to-face, rather than someone 350 miles away.

I understand, everyone is looking for ways to maximize their buying power. Don't think I am not out there, looking for good deals, same as anyone else. That's still not a crime. At least I don't think it is. But I am not gullible enough to think that a good deal is all about price.

And there are more than just two rules. One rule says that every new part you pull out of a box is either wrong, or manufactured to the wrong specs. Another rule says the distance between your shop and a mail-order warehouse is directly related to the percentage of wrong parts you have been shipped.

 

[fletcherson]

Yet you were still caught up by their tactics, aye?

Heh, what you do not realize is the 'street wise' customers are the easiest marks.

Like having it happen the way it already did won't ensure that would be the last time???

And believe me, I am not trying to single you out, because most people have had the same bad experiences. Sometimes is it just a simple mistake on someone's part, and they sent you a part for a 1982 model year, rather than a 1992 model year. Stuff happens.


A quick story - for about seven years, back in the late 1970's and early 1980's, I managed an NAPA store, in West Lafayette. The guy that owned the operation was the original wooden shoe. Ever hear the joke about being so tight with money, a person could squeeze excrement out of a buffalo nickel? That was this fellow. He said something to me once, and at the time, I called him on it. He told me to look out, at all the traffic driving by the shop (we were located on a rather busy state highway) and to always remember those people were all con-masters and thieves. I told him that was the saddest commentary I had ever heard on the human race. Today, I look out the window and I remember that everyone I see is a con-master and a thief.

<shrug>

Rule Number One - There are no honest people, until they have demonstrated their level of honesty.
Rule Number Two - There are no exceptions to Rule Number One.
Rule Number Three - It is easier to resolve problems when dealing with someone face-to-face, rather than someone 350 miles away.

I understand, everyone is looking for ways to maximize their buying power. Don't think I am not out there, looking for good deals, same as anyone else. That's still not a crime. At least I don't think it is. But I am not gullible enough to think that a good deal is all about price.

And there are more than just two rules. One rule says that every new part you pull out of a box is either wrong, or manufactured to the wrong specs. Another rule says the distance between your shop and a mail-order warehouse is directly related to the percentage of wrong parts you have been shipped.

Yea, I don't know the answer, but if it were in person, I would have been in their face and there is just something about face to face confrontation that is lost via the Internet. Not that I am a bad ass, but I can hold my own if necessary, but it's not even about that, it's the whole answering for your actions thing. Most people are less likely to pull stuff if they have to do it face to face and know that they will have to answer for it face to face. Most, not all. The real problem is, and you sort of nailed it, honesty. The consumer expects it to a certain degree, and is putting their money and info out there, so if it goes south, it's like having your hands tied. Again, this wasn't just about saving money, I paid a price that was not bargain basement, a steering wheel adapter for a cadillac telescoping column that only three companies manufacture, a wheel to match, etc. some stuff I couldn't get via my local sources, at least they didn't list it, and the components to go with it. I will say that I am getting refunds for the cash, not my time. And interesting enough, the major company with the honest defect and the designated distributor was the worst one to deal with, the distributor, that is. So it's not just the no name or independents that get you, I think it's the nature of no personal contact and no accountability. It's real easy to click and buy stuff,,not so much to undo it. I don't do impulse shopping via the Internet, I do some research, that's what burns me the most. If I just bought it because it was cheap, I feel I would deserve it more, but I was out whitted by folks that know how to misrepresent products, plain and simple. How can you compete with that?
Notice I am trying to be fair to them and give credit where merited and I assume some blame, not much, but how much friggin research do we have to do to make a purchase? I could do background checks on them, etc... But it would be a full time job, lol. Even the BBB is a scam, I'm my opinion. They accredit companies who pay them to do so and if the consumer has an issue, they have to accept the companies resolution or accept the screwing. The company gets a favorable rating because they offered a resolution...please! In our world, it's all about the economy and getting the consumer to spend money"." The guy that sold the hilborn air cleaner actually called me when I requested a refund and was ready for a debate, but after we talked for a minute, he was ok and didn't admit to knowing that they would not fit without major modification, but understood that I wasn't just a jackass with buyers remorse, and I'm sure they get their share of that. He even told me that he was selling out and getting into something else because too many living room companies just buy cheap, low quality crap and advertise just like the reputable guys and drive the price down so low, they have to resort to selling crap to compete. I am sure there was some fluff in there, but some good points as well.
It's just too easy for shady folks to start up a internet marketing and sales company and there is way too much knock off crap and seconds, etc... The terms "work" , "job", " company", etc... don't seem to mean the same thing these days. And I think the term "integrity" is only now used as a brand name for luring us into trusting our hard earned retirement funds to someone to invest for their gain. I really miss being able to go see and feel the parts before buying them. The Internet is convenient for some things, but not a good replacement for a real parts store.

 

[benT]

I find that I stick to a small group of online retailers/dealers and a few local for everything car-related these days. I've been burned and unless you have a face-to face relationship with the seller or that are a known reputable company that will take car of you I pass. It infrequent that I deal outside of that, but I have bought a few one-off items from individual fleabayers.

If you can't get it locally, I tend to use Summit Racing a lot. I've been using them for 25 years and they have a great track record with me. When I was a real young pup of 16, I bought a set of really cheap BlackJack headers from them for my '68 Cougar 289. The came as expected but when installing they hit the power assist unit and I was pissed. I called Summit Techline up and said what gives? The Tech guy explained that a separate PS drop bracket ($20) was required in this application. He said it might not have been clear in the literature and they were going to send this to me free of charge. At that point I realized that these guys do care about customer service and I've used them ever since. They will willingly match prices on parts if you find them cheaper online and I had them do this on a set of $1000 heads. They take returns much better than other retailers.

With that being said, the older I get the more I appreciate the local shops and retailers. I realized the impact that they can have on the community an the extra service I get for the sometimes added cost. One incident in particular brought this home to me. I was shopping for some FlowMaster 2-chamber mufflers and the rest of the exhaust for my Mustang GT I had in college. I called around to some local (Indy) custom muffler shops and one kept these in stock and would bend the rest of the exhaust. When he told me the cost per muffler, I said thanks for your time and I'll give you a call when I decide. He then asked me to consider why he had to charge more for the mufflers than Summit or Jegs and what I would get for that cost that they couldn't offer. He also said to think about living in a place where nobody stocked these locally and installed them. After the call was over I really thought about it and I ended up calling him back and scheduling an appointment for later in the week. It was well worth it and they did a great install and took more time than I expected to get all the pipes routed right. I never had an issue with that exhaust while I owned the car

Its sometimes difficult to navigate the retail things these days. I've been burned as well on cheap imported junk, so I'm as gunshy as anyone. My advices is by local to see it (man, I DO miss the old SuperShops!) if yo can, but if you can't, stick to one of the reputable retailers that will take care of you if you are not happy.

 

[fletcherson]

I find that I stick to a small group of online retailers/dealers and a few local for everything car-related these days. I've been burned and unless you have a face-to face relationship with the seller or that are a known reputable company that will take car of you I pass. It infrequent that I deal outside of that, but I have bought a few one-off items from individual fleabayers.

If you can't get it locally, I tend to use Summit Racing a lot. I've been using them for 25 years and they have a great track record with me. When I was a real young pup of 16, I bought a set of really cheap BlackJack headers from them for my '68 Cougar 289. The came as expected but when installing they hit the power assist unit and I was pissed. I called Summit Techline up and said what gives? The Tech guy explained that a separate PS drop bracket ($20) was required in this application. He said it might not have been clear in the literature and they were going to send this to me free of charge. At that point I realized that these guys do care about customer service and I've used them ever since. They will willingly match prices on parts if you find them cheaper online and I had them do this on a set of $1000 heads. They take returns much better than other retailers.

With that being said, the older I get the more I appreciate the local shops and retailers. I realized the impact that they can have on the community an the extra service I get for the sometimes added cost. One incident in particular brought this home to me. I was shopping for some FlowMaster 2-chamber mufflers and the rest of the exhaust for my Mustang GT I had in college. I called around to some local (Indy) custom muffler shops and one kept these in stock and would bend the rest of the exhaust. When he told me the cost per muffler, I said thanks for your time and I'll give you a call when I decide. He then asked me to consider why he had to charge more for the mufflers than Summit or Jegs and what I would get for that cost that they couldn't offer. He also said to think about living in a place where nobody stocked these locally and installed them. After the call was over I really thought about it and I ended up calling him back and scheduling an appointment for later in the week. It was well worth it and they did a great install and took more time than I expected to get all the pipes routed right. I never had an issue with that exhaust while I owned the car

Its sometimes difficult to navigate the retail things these days. I've been burned as well on cheap imported junk, so I'm as gunshy as anyone. My advices is by local to see it (man, I DO miss the old SuperShops!) if yo can, but if you can't, stick to one of the reputable retailers that will take care of you if you are not happy.

Summit and jegs are located in Ohio, where I unfortunately live, lol, I have used jegs more because they are closer to me and have a store, they did have 3, not now. I have had good luck with jegs for the most part, some hick ups, but they are good about returns. I have recently used summit for some stuff, but I had a bad experience with a "parts specialist" years back that really ticked me off so I just didn't deal with them. I am sure there are bad eggs everywhere, I just happened to get one. I have noticed that both their prices have been more competitive lately as well.
I agree that local trusted vendors are the way to go, I doubt I will be able to be faithful to that theology, but will be much less likely to patronize unknown online vendors as a result of this experience.
I too miss super shops and all that sig erson stuff, lol. I really miss that era, when they actually installed what they sold. I didn't use that service, but it served as quality control. I almost never got defective or false represented stuff back then.

 

[Mike]

Well, I can tell you one way to find suppliers you can trust. Look to the companies that advertise on these forums.

Now make no mistake about it, people like @RESINATOR , @adrenalinejunkie , @RPM , @hulkamania , and @edgar santiesteban are not perfect. As hard as they try to attain that goal, these fellows all make mistakes. That stuff just happens from time to time, no matter how hard you try to prevent it. But I know these fellows want everything to be right with their customers, and they will go the extra mile to correct anything that might go wrong.

The high performance automotive aftermarket is an intriguing field to work in. Believe me, a shop on the Left Coast could be delinquent in their payment to a supplier, or they might write a bad check to another supplier, and before lunch, the word would be getting around on how the owner/s of said shop could not be trusted.

People are funny (read: strange) when it comes to the kind of treatment they receive. If someone gets good customer service, you rarely ever hear about it. For these people, they got what they paid for and life just goes on. What may surprise you is the majority of people who have received poor customer service will not mention it. They just disappear and look for better service, elsewhere. Usually, when you hear someone howling, they are the people who are never going to be happy with anything, ever. S ome people just have to bitch. They really have nothing useful to offer, but they somehow think they have to offer something. Constructive criticism has its place. Non-stop griping, whining, and complaining accomplish nothing.

When I receive great customer service, I make it a point to make my pleasure known to the people responsible for the company. Trying to please customers can be a miserable and thankless exercise in futility, so treat me right and I will let you know your efforts were not wasted.

Think about it, and if someone does you a good turn, remember to tell them (and others) about it.

 

[fletcherson]

Well, I can tell you one way to find suppliers you can trust. Look to the companies that advertise on these forums.

Now make no mistake about it, people like @RESINATOR , @adrenalinejunkie , @RPM , @hulkamania , and @edgar santiesteban are not perfect. As hard as they try to attain that goal, these fellows all make mistakes. That stuff just happens from time to time, no matter how hard you try to prevent it. But I know these fellows want everything to be right with their customers, and they will go the extra mile to correct anything that might go wrong.

The high performance automotive aftermarket is an intriguing field to work in. Believe me, a shop on the Left Coast could be delinquent in their payment to a supplier, or they might write a bad check to another supplier, and before lunch, the word would be getting around on how the owner/s of said shop could not be trusted.

People are funny (read: strange) when it comes to the kind of treatment they receive. If someone gets good customer service, you rarely ever hear about it. For these people, they got what they paid for and life just goes on. What may surprise you is the majority of people who have received poor customer service will not mention it. They just disappear and look for better service, elsewhere. Usually, when you hear someone howling, they are the people who are never going to be happy with anything, ever. S ome people just have to bitch. They really have nothing useful to offer, but they somehow think they have to offer something. Constructive criticism has its place. Non-stop griping, whining, and complaining accomplish nothing.

When I receive great customer service, I make it a point to make my pleasure known to the people responsible for the company. Trying to please customers can be a miserable and thankless exercise in futility, so treat me right and I will let you know your efforts were not wasted.

Think about it, and if someone does you a good turn, remember to tell them (and others) about it.

I have only dealt wit Ron, so far, and no complaints, I was impressed with the weld quality on his brackets, and said so. I have had some interaction as far as conversation with others and they have been nothing but helpful. I usually don't bitch about folks until after I have an issue and have tried to resolve it, but I do expect to be treated right, fair, and get a quality product as advertised, after all, I am paying them. If not, I will squeak so others won't reward them with business. Vendors like to advertise quality, price, and service until the customer complains, the good ones make it right, the bad ones act as if it's just a jerk customer who wants something better than they bought. If I ask a question or assume something that's incorrect, making me feel like a idiot isn't going to merit my business. Explaining things so I get what I need will. That was my issue with the little jerk at summit years back. I thought I knew what I needed, based on their catalog and when I tried to order it, he felt superior and obliged himself to insult my intelligence. It wasn't fair to the company, but I just didn't want to experience that crap, so I went elsewhere, for years. I thought the product specialist were supposed to know about their stuff and help, not judge, anyways, I'm sure he is not there now. There are two sides, but do what you say and don't misrepresent stuff, and most folks are satisfied. Jmo. I will push my soap box back under the bench, for now.
Perhaps you should start "T Bay" on here so we can get all of our goodies from quality vendors! Lol.

 

[T-Test]

NO SNIVELING!! Don't get mad--get even!! Let everyone KNOW what their service is like--Good or Bad!!

 

[Mike]

If I ask a question or assume something that's incorrect, making me feel like a idiot isn't going to merit my business.

I couldn't agree with you more, but what you don't realize is nine times out of ten, the customer a parts salesman is talking with really is an idiot.

Let me explain what I mean by idiot. The customer walks in the door, and asks for the 'biggest camshaft he can run and still use a stock torque converter'. Or he walks in and wants a set of headers for his stock 350 Camaro, with 2" primary tubes. Or he wants a long-runner, single-plane manifold and a 750 double-pumper for the same engine. (Yes, once again I managed to work in three hyphenated phrases into one sentence!! )

At that point, what is my job? To remember the customer is always right and sell him parts that will turn his car into an absolute pig? Or to get a sense for what he is really trying to do, and what his budget is like, in order to sell him the parts he really needs? Seriously, we had a title for those kinds of customers. Since they had become 'experts' by reading the catalogs from the Ohio warehouses, we referred to them as 'wish-book racers'.

I wanted my customers to be happy, to give us good referrals, and to give us future business, so I always opted for Door Number Two. Never mind that I may have as much as $8,000 - $10,000 worth of valve spring orders waiting to be shipped, with UPS pick-up just 30 minutes away. Never mind that I might be on the third invoice of what would be a eight-invoice, $15,000 race motor. Never mind that the phone might be ringing off the hook, with even more valve spring orders, as well as the occasional caller wanting to price the 'biggest camshaft he could run and still use a stock torque converter'. I would stop whatever was happening and start trying to help this customer, who is standing in front of me.

Question 1 - OK, what is it you are trying to build? Is this going to be something you are going to drive every day, something you are going to drive on weekends, or...?

Of course, they were going to drive it every day, but they would always want the rough idle and they also wanted to use 87 octane gasoline.

Question 2 - Have you made any other changes to this engine?

They never knew what had been done, because they had just bought the car, and the seller told them we had charged him umpty-thousand dollars to build the engine.

Question 3 - How much compression does this engine have?

No clue.

Question 4 - How much rear gear does the car have?

No clue.

Now hear me out. I am not saying or suggesting that anyone here could be so thick, I am just telling you that nine times out of ten, this was the mentality of the customers that would walk in our door. Those people had to come from somewhere, aye?

I would get valve spring customers call me, wanting to know what valve spring they needed to run. Talk about walking a high wire, without a net, that stuff was crazy.

Our catalog and our Web site had an illustration that showed what different terms meant. But no one ever bothered to look at that illustration and to comprehend it. The absolute bare minimum I needed to know would be cam/lifter design (hydraulic tappet, solid tappet, hydraulic roller tappet, solid roller tappet), diameter of the spring pocket, actual lift at the valve, and total installed height, with no shims in the pocket. Leave any one of those variables blank, and there is no way to make a proper recommendation.

It would make you nauseous to know how many people would call, every single day, and admit they were measuring dimensions with a wooden ruler. I had a guy pitch a shoe at me, because he had to cut his wooden yardstick, in order to get me a dimension. And no, I am not kidding.

We had a spring that we offered as a drop-in replacement for a stock small Chevy. The spring was great, up to .500" lift. Run that same spring at .510" lift and they would break, every time. So we carefully added a warning, to say that spring was useless beyond .500" lift. We tried to include as much information as we could with our springs, so we would always get the guys who were 'smarter than the average bear' (see where this is leading?) ordering that spring. They had looked at solid height on the spring and they could reverse the math to see they could run as much as .560" lift, so they would call and order that part number for their .550" lift combination. But since they were smarter than the average Joe, they would just call a dealer and order the spring by part number. And without fail, within 48 hours of installing the springs, they would be on the phone to me (not to the dealer, mind) pitching a hissy fit at me, because my 'junk-ass springs' had broken.

My procedure for those calls was always the same. Put the guy on speaker, and go on working on whatever I had been doing when the call came in. Say, "Uh-huh," and, "Yeah," every few seconds, and just wait for the guy to sputter to a stand-still. Then, I would pick up the phone and ask the key questions. What kind of cam/lifter design, what diameter spring pocket, how much lift at the valve, and how much installed height. Now mind, this was always the guy who was smarter than average, so those questions would wind him right up, making him think I was belittling his <cough> 'superior intelligence'. Put the phone back on speaker, until he wore himself out again and then ask, "Are you aware we specifically do not recommend using that spring with that much valve lift?" The put the phone back on speaker, as they would wear themselves out, explaining to me how 'smart' they were, and how they had done all the math, and how that spring would not coil bind until .560" lift, etc., etc., ad flipping nauseum.

Seriously, what do you say to a customer that is so smart they could not even read the warning on the product?

I've had championship-winning engine builders throw bitch fits at me, because they were not smart enough to calculate coil bind clearance.

And again, I am saying I am not trying to cast aspersions on anyone here, but I spent 37+ years in that industry and I dealt with enough customers to know that more times than not, the customer is definitely not right. The customer thinks he knows enough to make good parts selections, but if left to his own devices, he could mangle ball bearings in a sandbox, using a rubber hammer. I spent 25 years, working as the sales manager of that company. But when push came to shove, I would unload spring components off a truck in a rainstorm. I would do finishing work on spring components. I would assemble springs. I would stripe springs. I would pressure check springs. I would box springs. If you called to buy springs, I was the one you talked with. I was also the one who put your order in a box and shipped it to you. I helped customers diagnose spring problems at the race track. I helped customers change springs at the race track. I was the crew chief on a race-winning, record-holding car that ran those springs. If you attended a P.R.I. show, odds were you would be talking to me at the show. I knew those springs inside and out, so why wouldn't you want to take advantage of that knowledge? I sold springs to racers in Top Fuel, racers in Top Alcohol, racers in Comp, racers in Stock and Super Stock, to Indy car racers, to racers all over the world. Racers who not only won races, but also won championships.

It's good when people try to educate themselves on anything, but it's also good for them to sit back, relax, and allow the experts in a given field take care of them. It's like the people who jump on here and ask what stall torque converter they should run. They have absolutely no idea how critical a decision that is, and think the selection is as simple as running whatever the next guy is running. Get on the telephone, call the manufacturers' tech lines, talk to people who build and sell converters every day of the week, and ask them what you should use. Personally, I think the majority of people should just run the stock torque converter, because they bought the biggest camshaft they could run with a stock converter.

Now, you may have a better idea of how things look from the other side of the parts counter.

 

[fletcherson]

I couldn't agree with you more, but what you don't realize is nine times out of ten, the customer a parts salesman is talking with really is an idiot.

Let me explain what I mean by idiot. The customer walks in the door, and asks for the 'biggest camshaft he can run and still use a stock torque converter'. Or he walks in and wants a set of headers for his stock 350 Camaro, with 2" primary tubes. Or he wants a long-runner, single-plane manifold and a 750 double-pumper for the same engine. (Yes, once again I managed to work in three hyphenated phrases into one sentence!! )

At that point, what is my job? To remember the customer is always right and sell him parts that will turn his car into an absolute pig? Or to get a sense for what he is really trying to do, and what his budget is like, in order to sell him the parts he really needs? Seriously, we had a title for those kinds of customers. Since they had become 'experts' by reading the catalogs from the Ohio warehouses, we referred to them as 'wish-book racers'.

I wanted my customers to be happy, to give us good referrals, and to give us future business, so I always opted for Door Number Two. Never mind that I may have as much as $8,000 - $10,000 worth of valve spring orders waiting to be shipped, with UPS pick-up just 30 minutes away. Never mind that I might be on the third invoice of what would be a eight-invoice, $15,000 race motor. Never mind that the phone might be ringing off the hook, with even more valve spring orders, as well as the occasional caller wanting to price the 'biggest camshaft he could run and still use a stock torque converter'. I would stop whatever was happening and start trying to help this customer, who is standing in front of me.

Question 1 - OK, what is it you are trying to build? Is this going to be something you are going to drive every day, something you are going to drive on weekends, or...?

Of course, they were going to drive it every day, but they would always want the rough idle and they also wanted to use 87 octane gasoline.

Question 2 - Have you made any other changes to this engine?

They never knew what had been done, because they had just bought the car, and the seller told them we had charged him umpty-thousand dollars to build the engine.

Question 3 - How much compression does this engine have?

No clue.

Question 4 - How much rear gear does the car have?

No clue.

Now hear me out. I am not saying or suggesting that anyone here could be so thick, I am just telling you that nine times out of ten, this was the mentality of the customers that would walk in our door. Those people had to come from somewhere, aye?

I would get valve spring customers call me, wanting to know what valve spring they needed to run. Talk about walking a high wire, without a net, that stuff was crazy.

Our catalog and our Web site had an illustration that showed what different terms meant. But no one ever bothered to look at that illustration and to comprehend it. The absolute bare minimum I needed to know would be cam/lifter design (hydraulic tappet, solid tappet, hydraulic roller tappet, solid roller tappet), diameter of the spring pocket, actual lift at the valve, and total installed height, with no shims in the pocket. Leave any one of those variables blank, and there is no way to make a proper recommendation.

It would make you nauseous to know how many people would call, every single day, and admit they were measuring dimensions with a wooden ruler. I had a guy pitch a shoe at me, because he had to cut his wooden yardstick, in order to get me a dimension. And no, I am not kidding.

We had a spring that we offered as a drop-in replacement for a stock small Chevy. The spring was great, up to .500" lift. Run that same spring at .510" lift and they would break, every time. So we carefully added a warning, to say that spring was useless beyond .500" lift. We tried to include as much information as we could with our springs, so we would always get the guys who were 'smarter than the average bear' (see where this is leading?) ordering that spring. They had looked at solid height on the spring and they could reverse the math to see they could run as much as .560" lift, so they would call and order that part number for their .550" lift combination. But since they were smarter than the average Joe, they would just call a dealer and order the spring by part number. And without fail, within 48 hours of installing the springs, they would be on the phone to me (not to the dealer, mind) pitching a hissy fit at me, because my 'junk-ass springs' had broken.

My procedure for those calls was always the same. Put the guy on speaker, and go on working on whatever I had been doing when the call came in. Say, "Uh-huh," and, "Yeah," every few seconds, and just wait for the guy to sputter to a stand-still. Then, I would pick up the phone and ask the key questions. What kind of cam/lifter design, what diameter spring pocket, how much lift at the valve, and how much installed height. Now mind, this was always the guy who was smarter than average, so those questions would wind him right up, making him think I was belittling his <cough> 'superior intelligence'. Put the phone back on speaker, until he wore himself out again and then ask, "Are you aware we specifically do not recommend using that spring with that much valve lift?" The put the phone back on speaker, as they would wear themselves out, explaining to me how 'smart' they were, and how they had done all the math, and how that spring would not coil bind until .560" lift, etc., etc., ad flipping nauseum.

Seriously, what do you say to a customer that is so smart they could not even read the warning on the product?

I've had championship-winning engine builders throw bitch fits at me, because they were not smart enough to calculate coil bind clearance.

And again, I am saying I am not trying to cast aspersions on anyone here, but I spent 37+ years in that industry and I dealt with enough customers to know that more times than not, the customer is definitely not right. The customer thinks he knows enough to make good parts selections, but if left to his own devices, he could mangle ball bearings in a sandbox, using a rubber hammer. I spent 25 years, working as the sales manager of that company. But when push came to shove, I would unload spring components off a truck in a rainstorm. I would do finishing work on spring components. I would assemble springs. I would stripe springs. I would pressure check springs. I would box springs. If you called to buy springs, I was the one you talked with. I was also the one who put your order in a box and shipped it to you. I helped customers diagnose spring problems at the race track. I helped customers change springs at the race track. I was the crew chief on a race-winning, record-holding car that ran those springs. If you attended a P.R.I. show, odds were you would be talking to me at the show. I knew those springs inside and out, so why wouldn't you want to take advantage of that knowledge? I sold springs to racers in Top Fuel, racers in Top Alcohol, racers in Comp, racers in Stock and Super Stock, to Indy car racers, to racers all over the world. Racers who not only won races, but also won championships.

It's good when people try to educate themselves on anything, but it's also good for them to sit back, relax, and allow the experts in a given field take care of them. It's like the people who jump on here and ask what stall torque converter they should run. They have absolutely no idea how critical a decision that is, and think the selection is as simple as running whatever the next guy is running. Get on the telephone, call the manufacturers' tech lines, talk to people who build and sell converters every day of the week, and ask them what you should use. Personally, I think the majority of people should just run the stock torque converter, because they bought the biggest camshaft they could run with a stock converter.

Now, you may have a better idea of how things look from the other side of the parts counter.

I have been on both sides of the counter, and you are correct about most customers being idiots, I would expand that to most people are idiots in some arena. And I bet most bad experiences that we as consumers have are based on a previous encounter either right before the call or as a memory of one. I have met some real gems posing as parts specialists though. There will likely never be a true resolve to this one, I just know that if I ask about something, it infers that I am not familiar enough with it to make the decision, I don't need a wise sales pro to make me feel like an idiot. That's what I was referring to, and it was over a msd timing computers compatibility with a msd ignition box I already owned. The description was unclear and I was asking for clarification. The response was as if I should just know the answer. Perhaps if I sold them or installed them everyday, I would have. I too have made bad choices based on misunderstanding information, misleading information, or too mush testosterone in my system while project planning and it normally results in more sales for the parts department to fix it. I don't like those situations, but understand them. The ones that kill me are the dishonest advertising and junk imitation parts that we are plagued with these days, which is what prompted my soap box session, sory! As for the big cam thing, if you haven't put too big of a cam in at some point, you probably didn't put a big enough one in. Lol. Just kidding. I have done that one. Not too big, just not a great choice for the intended use. Still fun though.

 

[Francis Blake]

I always try to get my parts from someone that I trust or have dealt with be fore, and if something is not right I always give the seller a chance to make it right. As Mike said no one is perfect. I know I make my share of mistakes.