Roller Lifters for the Street

[Indycars]

Looks like I might be spending more time here, glad I found this place. Its been 10 years since my T-Bucket was on the street, but now I'm moving forward with a new engine and few other things.

I'm 90% sure that I want a roller lifter cam for my next engine, but not sure about whether to go with hydraulic or solid. The solid seems to be cheaper and the lifters are lighter, but will a solid live on the street??? I'm not against adjusting the lash once or twice a year, that's not problem. Does anyone have experience with this and what manufacture did you use???

Appreciate any feedback!!!


Rick Miller

 

[ellis8500]

Your best bet is to do a bit of research on the net regarding solid roller lifters. The various cam manufacturers will have plenty of data and articles on that subject. My guess, from what I read on the subject is that hydraulic roller lifters are more suitable for a street engine simply because of the adjustment and noise factor. Both will work.

 

[Indycars]

Thanks for the feedback Bill!

I've been doing all the reading I can, I'm just not finding any definitive answer, probably not going to happen either. I'm in no hurry with the engine, have other things to do also, so I'm just trying to gather more info and feedback. Hoping to get several positives on the solid roller from people who have actually done it in the last couple of years. You know how technology changes, so some of the things I've read are just too old. It seems if there is a problem it comes when the engine does a lot of idling. So I can't use what racing group are saying, since they don't do much of that idling thing.


Rick

 

[Lee_in_KC]

Rick, I don't think you're going to get a "definitive answer." You are going to get a lot of "opinions" though, and here's mine. When you're talking about a street motor, your priority is not to wring every .25 horsepower out of it, but rather to have a reasonably strong, reliable motor. In my opinion, in this day and age, solid lifters are for the guy who wants to rev high and make as much power as possible. I think hydraulics are the choice for the street... quieter, lower maintenance (set and forget), not as hard on the valve train.

If you want to hear from some real experts, post your question on hotrodders.com. There are some guys on there that really know their stuff when it comes to performance motors. (Not to say there aren't some knowledgeable motor guys here, there's just a lot more of them over there!)

Just my 3.7 cents (adjusted for inflation)

by the way, welcome to the site!!

 

[Indycars]

Thanks for the welcome Lee!

I am thinking that the solid roller is $100-$150 cheaper, but I need to triple check that. The solid is lighter, so I am thinking that it will require less spring pressure for the same lobe design, therefore easier on the valve train. OR I can get a more aggressive lobe design with the same spring pressure. At this point my head is spinning trying to wrap my brain around all these numbers. I'll get there, just takes time to absorb all this info.


Rick

 

[Old Rotor Flap]

Lee in KC is right...... and here's my opinion.

Write a mission profile for your car and the engine.

Identify what do you want this car to do? Cruising, touring/trips, racing?

Write down why you want a roller cam?

Is it to produce more power? Is it for the noise while chugging through the drive in? Is it supporting evidence of your engine building expertise.

How much are you willing to spend and how does this expenditure compare to something that might enhance crusing or touring or racing - the mission profile.

How much maintenance is associated with your choice? How often will you be above 5000 rpm? With a solid roller, I'm thinking you'll be adjusting valves more frequently than you might first think. And, maybe changing valve springs a bit more often than expected with a valve lap while your at it. Write down those costs.

I may have said this before. Many T's will never see a well prepared drag strip. Many of these cars would break and axle or shed a drive shaft even if they could pass tech.
So, if your mission profile identifies racing, you may wish to do some research on getting the car through a tech inspection. The local track here doesn't prep the track for street car test nights so most parcitipants won't need a tow truck to get home.

 

[Lee_in_KC]

I am thinking that the solid roller is $100-$150 cheaper, but I need to triple check that. The solid is lighter, so I am thinking that it will require less spring pressure for the same lobe design, therefore easier on the valve train. OR I can get a more aggressive lobe design with the same spring pressure.

I think you're right about the price difference, and that may be reason enough to go with the solids. They will certainly do the job, and as you said, you don't mind lashing them when necessary.

About the solids being lighter, that's true but I think that only comes into play if you're worried about valve float. Yeah, you could probably go with slightly lighter springs, but as you say, that's really more of a function of lobe design. Unless you think you're going to be revving into the range where valve float could be an issue, I don't think I would worry about it.

I think you might be over-thinking this. For a street motor that won't be revving beyond the high 5s, solids will get the job done fine with some noise and lashing a few times a year, and they will save you a few bucks. But hydraulics will also get the job done just as well with fewer issues, other than cost.

I think it just boils down to what is your personal preference? For me, it's convenience. I didn't mind the expense, so I went with hydraulic rollers. Also went with full roller rockers with poly-locks. Haven't touched the valve train in five years.

 

[insomniacshotrods]

Which ever way you go check ebay for some smoking deals. I got my retro-fit hydraulic roller crower cam and lifters for under 300.00 would have cost over 700.00 all brand new parts...

 

[Lee_in_KC]

I forgot to comment on the idling issue. I am by no means an expert on cams and valve trains, but this is my understanding on the idling issue. Hydraulics act as a sort of shock absorber at idle and low RPMS, and take up the slack in the valve train. This reduces "slap" and noise in the valve train and shock to the components. Once you get some revs on the motor, the hydraulics become pretty much "solids" as far as the valve train sees, as the lifters don't have time to bleed down to have some shock or slack absorbing ability. This is why, if you don't pre-load the hydraulics when setting lash, you get noise and reduced performance.

That's alls I know about that.

 

[WEDRVIT]

Looks like I might be spending more time here, glad I found this place. Its been 10 years since my T-Bucket was on the street, but now I'm moving forward with a new engine and few other things.

I'm 90% sure that I want a roller lifter cam for my next engine, but not sure about whether to go with hydraulic or solid. The solid seems to be cheaper and the lifters are lighter, but will a solid live on the street??? I'm not against adjusting the lash once or twice a year, that's not problem. Does anyone have experience with this and what manufacture did you use???

Appreciate any feedback!!!


Rick Miller

I've been running a .525 lift solid roller Edelbrock in my 406 chevy for about 30k miles and it's doing just fine. I'm using Crower link type solid pin lube lifters and Crane roller rockers (flattened two solid flat cams in 150k miles possibly due to low zinc oils). I like the sound and don't have to worry about low zinc oil anymore. My short independent runner Webers don't like a lot of overlap so I have a short duration with a fast ramp time and an early intake close. The pin lube Crowers take care of the lack of lubrication at low rpms and the ramp profile has a soft lift built in to it to reduce valve stem tip damage due to the .024 lash. Once you get over the sticker shock you're in and don't forget about the oil thing because it's only going to get worse. Good luck Harley

 

[72442conv]

I would go with the solid if you really do not mind adjusting the valves. My reasoning is that you get rid of the lifter pump up and or lifter collapse at high RPM, which are both common with hydraulic rollers, lighter weight, and a solid roller of the same .050 duration always makes more power than the equivalent hydraulic roller.
Now, I hate messing with adjusting valves, and being that 10-20 HP more or less does not bother me, I would use the hydraulic roller. I am just lazy.

 

[Indycars]

Lee in KC is right...... and here's my opinion.

Write a mission profile for your car and the engine.

Identify what do you want this car to do? Cruising, touring/trips, racing?

Write down why you want a roller cam?

Is it to produce more power? Is it for the noise while chugging through the drive in? Is it supporting evidence of your engine building expertise.

How much are you willing to spend and how does this expenditure compare to something that might enhance crusing or touring or racing - the mission profile.

How much maintenance is associated with your choice? How often will you be above 5000 rpm? With a solid roller, I'm thinking you'll be adjusting valves more frequently than you might first think. And, maybe changing valve springs a bit more often than expected with a valve lap while your at it. Write down those costs.

I may have said this before. Many T's will never see a well prepared drag strip. Many of these cars would break and axle or shed a drive shaft even if they could pass tech.
So, if your mission profile identifies racing, you may wish to do some research on getting the car through a tech inspection. The local track here doesn't prep the track for street car test nights so most parcitipants won't need a tow truck to get home.

If it was about how much power I need, then I could probably get away with a stock v-6. Your right I will never run this car at the drag strip, but I like knowing that the abundance of power is there. I probably will never get to build another engine like this one, so I'm trying not to worry about the cost. I've been a tight wad all my life, just ask my wife, but now I want to do this right! Right is what will make me happy in the end, whether I need it or not.

I think my setup will hold up to the power it will be making. With a newly prepared TH350 and a Ford 9" rear with limited slip. I will be keeping a watch on the suspension thou, nothing has been tested for this kind of power, since it all home built. Although it was originally completed in 1980.

I can't afford a blower, so I'm going this route. I do appreciate your perspective on this, it does bring me more in line with reality. When I get down to picking the actual camshaft, I'm more likely to be more conservative with the duration and lift numbers.

Thanks again for your feedback!!!


Rick

 

[Indycars]

I think you're right about the price difference, and that may be reason enough to go with the solids. They will certainly do the job, and as you said, you don't mind lashing them when necessary.

About the solids being lighter, that's true but I think that only comes into play if you're worried about valve float. Yeah, you could probably go with slightly lighter springs, but as you say, that's really more of a function of lobe design. Unless you think you're going to be revving into the range where valve float could be an issue, I don't think I would worry about it.

I think you might be over-thinking this. For a street motor that won't be revving beyond the high 5s, solids will get the job done fine with some noise and lashing a few times a year, and they will save you a few bucks. But hydraulics will also get the job done just as well with fewer issues, other than cost.

I think it just boils down to what is your personal preference? For me, it's convenience. I didn't mind the expense, so I went with hydraulic rollers. Also went with full roller rockers with poly-locks. Haven't touched the valve train in five years.

I'm still on the fence, $150 out of $3500 is not a big deal, but if I can actually get something I will like even better for less....then why not. My concern and the biggest reason for this topic was the how well the solid roller would last on the street. Twenty years ago, it was suppose to be a problem, the lifters were not getting enough oil at low RPM. I'm trying to figure out if there is still a problem or will they last 50,000 miles, which will be take many years to get there. CompCams charges $11.85 per lifter to rebuild, so for about $200 I can have them rebuilt. That is all good if I don't have a catastrophic failure.

I'm going with roller rockers and possibly with the full rollers. I will have to see when I get the total dollar figure.

Many thanks for your input, it helps to bounce things off of someone else. Talking to yourself only goes so far, besides this is part of the journey!


Rick

 

[Indycars]

Which ever way you go check ebay for some smoking deals. I got my retro-fit hydraulic roller crower cam and lifters for under 300.00 would have cost over 700.00 all brand new parts...

Really.....was it all new components???


Rick

 

[Indycars]

I've been running a .525 lift solid roller Edelbrock in my 406 chevy for about 30k miles and it's doing just fine. I'm using Crower link type solid pin lube lifters and Crane roller rockers (flattened two solid flat cams in 150k miles possibly due to low zinc oils). I like the sound and don't have to worry about low zinc oil anymore. My short independent runner Webers don't like a lot of overlap so I have a short duration with a fast ramp time and an early intake close. The pin lube Crowers take care of the lack of lubrication at low rpms and the ramp profile has a soft lift built in to it to reduce valve stem tip damage due to the .024 lash. Once you get over the sticker shock you're in and don't forget about the oil thing because it's only going to get worse. Good luck Harley

So are those lifters pressure lubricated or is that a splash type oiling???

I'm glad to hear that your solids are surviving on the street just fine, that gives me some confidence that todays solid rollers are going to last on the street when used with a street lobe profile, such as the CompCams "Xtreme Energy" and "Magnum" cams

BTW, do you know if the technicians that make camshaft recommendations work on commission???


Rick

 

[Indycars]

I would go with the solid if you really do not mind adjusting the valves. My reasoning is that you get rid of the lifter pump up and or lifter collapse at high RPM, which are both common with hydraulic rollers, lighter weight, and a solid roller of the same .050 duration always makes more power than the equivalent hydraulic roller.
Now, I hate messing with adjusting valves, and being that 10-20 HP more or less does not bother me, I would use the hydraulic roller. I am just lazy.

Those are my exact reasons for considering the solid roller, if it will last on the street. I'm still trying to figure out if how I feel now about adjusting the valves is how I will feel a couple of years from now. Do you have a crystal ball I can borrow?


Rick

 

[ellis8500]

A lot of analysis and thought has to go into the process of selecting valve train components. Every part is inter-related in complex ways. So you want a different cam. OK, will the new lift require new valve springs? Will the valves hit the pistons? Does the cylinder head flow increase with greater lift? Will the intake runners support higher flow rates? The carb? Injectors? and on and on and on.

This is what I did. Got a SBF with E7T heads from an F150 truck. Decided to upgrade the camshaft as much as I could without having to change valve springs and up to the point where increased lift would not improve flow. Did not want cam duration to be so large that it wouldn't idle well for street use. After I looked at all of this, it lead me to a non-roller cam that was reasonably priced and higher performance than any of the stock SBF hyd-roller cams. I did have to revert back to hyd-flat tappets. Not a problem, they've been working in engines for a long time. Also had to get new push rods. All for 1/2 the price of a low cost roller cam. We can deal with the oil. Shell Rotella 30W has plenty of zinc.

 

[Indycars]

A lot of analysis and thought has to go into the process of selecting valve train components. Every part is inter-related in complex ways. So you want a different cam. OK, will the new lift require new valve springs? Will the valves hit the pistons? Does the cylinder head flow increase with greater lift? Will the intake runners support higher flow rates? The carb? Injectors? and on and on and on.

This is what I did. Got a SBF with E7T heads from an F150 truck. Decided to upgrade the camshaft as much as I could without having to change valve springs and up to the point where increased lift would not improve flow. Did not want cam duration to be so large that it wouldn't idle well for street use. After I looked at all of this, it lead me to a non-roller cam that was reasonably priced and higher performance than any of the stock SBF hyd-roller cams. I did have to revert back to hyd-flat tappets. Not a problem, they've been working in engines for a long time. Also had to get new push rods. All for 1/2 the price of a low cost roller cam. We can deal with the oil. Shell Rotella 30W has plenty of zinc.

I am planning on upgrading to the RHS "Pro Action" (180cc Intake Port) assembled heads with the appropriate springs. I am reading and asking questions, so I am doing everything I can to consider all the different interactions between components. I've gotten recommendation from Comp Cams and verified that the heads will work with their cam. They should know, since Comp Cams and RHS are the same company.

I do appreciate the questions, its entirely possible there is something that I have not considered yet. That's the beauty of these forums, someone is going to bring it up!


Rick

 

[insomniacshotrods]

Really.....was it all new components???


Rick

Yes, all brand new stuff just taken out for pics. Got from 2 different people and had to wait to find the right stuff but it was worth it. Im an Ebay Addict just ask my wife and mailman,ups man,fedex man lol.

 

[WEDRVIT]

So are those lifters pressure lubricated or is that a splash type oiling???

I'm glad to hear that your solids are surviving on the street just fine, that gives me some confidence that todays solid rollers are going to last on the street when used with a street lobe profile, such as the CompCams "Xtreme Energy" and "Magnum" cams

BTW, do you know if the technicians that make camshaft recommendations work on commission???


Rick

Yes they are pressure lubed, direct drilled to the pin. Sorry I missed on the cam brand (brain fart) it's a Comp CS268 RS.
I think Crower is the only one with the direct drill others use a groove. Harley