Indycars
Well-Known Member
Ok will keep my eye open for drilled vs groove in the documentation. I had a Crower in my 64 Nova, back in High School. It would be like going back in time to run Crower again.
Rick
Roller Lifters for the Street
- Thread starter Indycars
- Start date
Ok will keep my eye open for drilled vs groove in the documentation. I had a Crower in my 64 Nova, back in High School. It would be like going back in time to run Crower again.
Rick
Screaming Metal
Active Member
OK, I've got a little experience in such things and all. All the guys have given you solid advice here, solids vs hydraulics, I myself prefer solids, but thats just me. Hydraulic lifters keep your valve train all nice and quiet, but they are far from ideal as far as keeping the valve lash perfect. For awhile its perfect, then they start to vary, then they go back perfect for awhile.
What I'm going by is my experience with the dyno, on race engines, I'd been on the recieving end of some long hours running tests for various people that wanted to see if a hydraulic roller camed motor could last in a 500 mile race. Answer.....Nope.
If performance is what you want and your building a hotrod, and your gonna put a roller cam in it, and you don't mind setting your valves a couple of times a year....get yourself a good set of jomar bars or stud girdles, and keep your lift below .585 , and you will not ever have any issues with your motor. ....Oh, by the way, run polylocks with your stud girdles.....I've seen some folks try to scrimp on running all kinds od wierd stuff in that dept........
What I'm going by is my experience with the dyno, on race engines, I'd been on the recieving end of some long hours running tests for various people that wanted to see if a hydraulic roller camed motor could last in a 500 mile race. Answer.....Nope.
If performance is what you want and your building a hotrod, and your gonna put a roller cam in it, and you don't mind setting your valves a couple of times a year....get yourself a good set of jomar bars or stud girdles, and keep your lift below .585 , and you will not ever have any issues with your motor. ....Oh, by the way, run polylocks with your stud girdles.....I've seen some folks try to scrimp on running all kinds od wierd stuff in that dept........
Screaming Metal
Active Member
And let me add something here.....hydraulics on a really mild to pretty warm engine are OK, they'll last and do what they're designed to do. Now, that being said, keep the lift on hydraulics below .535 and below 6000 rpm's, you're good to go. Anything above 6000, and absolutely anything above .550, go for mechanical or solid lifters.
Hydraulics are good and fairly dependable, when the oils start to sludge up, get microscopic metal particles floating around in there in a non-roller motor.....things can come out pretty ugly.
Next time you pull a motor down, and you change that cam out, and you see a lobe on that hydraulic knotstick thats about 2/3 rds wore down.....just remember, that metal thatwent somewhere.....
just a little food for thought..........
Hydraulics are good and fairly dependable, when the oils start to sludge up, get microscopic metal particles floating around in there in a non-roller motor.....things can come out pretty ugly.
Next time you pull a motor down, and you change that cam out, and you see a lobe on that hydraulic knotstick thats about 2/3 rds wore down.....just remember, that metal thatwent somewhere.....
just a little food for thought..........
Indycars
Well-Known Member
Thanks Screaming Metal, I thought the thread was all done, but I'm glad you responded.
You suggest the Jomar stud girdles. If I keep the lift below 550 and use 7/16 studs....what do you think???
At this level of performance and the price of polylocks, I can't see doing anything else.
Thanks again!
Rick
Indycars
Well-Known Member
When adjusting the valve lash on a solid roller to affect the performance......Is this something you can feel or does this have to be measured on the dyno/track???
So you don't see any problem with the solids living on the street and having to idle for long periods of time??? Such as entering a rod run event where you are just creeping along to get inside.
Many thanks for all your input!!!
Rick
Screaming Metal
Active Member
On the lash aspect of the adjusting, just put it where the manufacturer says it needs to be, and you'll be OK. Remember...all thru the 50's -60's, there were alot of solid lifter motors prowling the streets....and chevy/ford/dodge all had their share of hi-horse mechanical lifter motors out there. Some of these folks had good grinds that'd work great for a fairly stock valvetrain, and give alot of horses...
Yes, if you ain't makin the power @ .550 lift, another .030-.050 isn't gonna break the bank in the power department. Same thing in the rpm dept. If you ain't making what you need by 6000 rpm, 6500 ain't gonna help you.....usually, that is. I wouldn't go above .550 on a street motor with a roller gring.....thats alot of cam....
Yes, get your valvetrain as stiff as you can get it.....stud girdles and polylocks will help keep your valvetrain stable. One thing nice about rollercams, you can really quicken up your opening and closing on your valves, and not run into alot of adverse wear.....like on the really highlift solids of yesteryear. That quickness though will let your studs flex and amke things fail....so, the designers gave you the most performance at the lowest lift. But if you look at the lobes....they'll be alot steeper. Thats the reason why the roller billets are made from steel usually. Cast can pop or break if you idle them too low....
Give a thanks to all the other guys here too....they've got alot of roddin experience here....I just try to pop in on occassion to kinda help out, if I can....
Yes, if you ain't makin the power @ .550 lift, another .030-.050 isn't gonna break the bank in the power department. Same thing in the rpm dept. If you ain't making what you need by 6000 rpm, 6500 ain't gonna help you.....usually, that is. I wouldn't go above .550 on a street motor with a roller gring.....thats alot of cam....
Yes, get your valvetrain as stiff as you can get it.....stud girdles and polylocks will help keep your valvetrain stable. One thing nice about rollercams, you can really quicken up your opening and closing on your valves, and not run into alot of adverse wear.....like on the really highlift solids of yesteryear. That quickness though will let your studs flex and amke things fail....so, the designers gave you the most performance at the lowest lift. But if you look at the lobes....they'll be alot steeper. Thats the reason why the roller billets are made from steel usually. Cast can pop or break if you idle them too low....
Give a thanks to all the other guys here too....they've got alot of roddin experience here....I just try to pop in on occassion to kinda help out, if I can....
Indycars
Well-Known Member
Mike
Well-Known Member
Being a charter member of the K.I.S.S. engine-building club, I'm not going to purchase such a critical engine component as a camshaft based on whether or not it uses hydraulic or sold lifters.
Start at the beginning and ask yourself some really important questions -
Do you want to build power or just sound like you are making power?
If you're looking to build power, what RPM range do you want that power to be available? Off idle to 5500? 2500 - 6500? How much gear ratio are you running? Automatic trans? Manual trans? Do you want to use pump gas or can you afford racing fuel? (And that last question can be one of the most important.)
Now that you have narrowed down where you want to make the most power, it's time to start thinking about the components you will need to make the motor happy in that range. (Did you pick up on how I said components you will need?)
If you are trying to build a bunch of off-idle torque, do not fall into the more-is-better trap.
On the other hand, if you're trying to build something you're going to twist to 6500 - 7000, then your concerns about price differences between a solid roller and a hydraulic roller set-up are pretty doggone insignificant. Because that big cam is going to require more spring load to control the valve train at a higher RPM. And that means a stronger pushrod, which is heavier and will require more spring load to cover up the additional weight. And those heavy springs mean you're going to need a roller rocker, as a standard ball fulcrum will fail under the load. Of course the additional spring load means if you wave at the rocker studs, they'll be waving back at you. So now you're looking at a larger diameter stud and a stud girdle, to keep everything stable. Or you can drop some big coin and opt for a shaft rocker system.
See where that is leading?
In this part of the country (central Indiana), pump gas quality and summertime temperatures mean 9.5:1 is about all you're going to get away with in static compression ratio. Which means you can't run too big a camshaft, else you'll kill dynamic cylinder pressure and end up with a pooch. And with a smaller camshaft profile, I'm not worrying about it being a roller design because it's just no necessary to spend that kind of money. A hydraulic flat tappet camshaft and a bottle of Comp Cams' zinc additive will cost a lot less than a set of roller lifters. I don't have to cut spring pockets for larger springs, I don't have to spend money on bigger pushrods, I don't have to spend money on roller rockers, I don't have to fuss with valve lash, etc. (Yeah, I tend to squeak when I walk, I'm so tight. :good: But why spend extra money to create problems that can only be solved with yet more money??)
It's all a matter of making the motor happy in the RPM range where it will spend the majority of its time. From there, all you need to do is remember things like camshaft profile, static compression ratio, intake manifold and the torque converter are all joined at the hip. Do not, do not, do not purchase one without considering all the others.
Start at the beginning and ask yourself some really important questions -
Do you want to build power or just sound like you are making power?
If you're looking to build power, what RPM range do you want that power to be available? Off idle to 5500? 2500 - 6500? How much gear ratio are you running? Automatic trans? Manual trans? Do you want to use pump gas or can you afford racing fuel? (And that last question can be one of the most important.)
Now that you have narrowed down where you want to make the most power, it's time to start thinking about the components you will need to make the motor happy in that range. (Did you pick up on how I said components you will need?)
If you are trying to build a bunch of off-idle torque, do not fall into the more-is-better trap.
On the other hand, if you're trying to build something you're going to twist to 6500 - 7000, then your concerns about price differences between a solid roller and a hydraulic roller set-up are pretty doggone insignificant. Because that big cam is going to require more spring load to control the valve train at a higher RPM. And that means a stronger pushrod, which is heavier and will require more spring load to cover up the additional weight. And those heavy springs mean you're going to need a roller rocker, as a standard ball fulcrum will fail under the load. Of course the additional spring load means if you wave at the rocker studs, they'll be waving back at you. So now you're looking at a larger diameter stud and a stud girdle, to keep everything stable. Or you can drop some big coin and opt for a shaft rocker system.
See where that is leading?
In this part of the country (central Indiana), pump gas quality and summertime temperatures mean 9.5:1 is about all you're going to get away with in static compression ratio. Which means you can't run too big a camshaft, else you'll kill dynamic cylinder pressure and end up with a pooch. And with a smaller camshaft profile, I'm not worrying about it being a roller design because it's just no necessary to spend that kind of money. A hydraulic flat tappet camshaft and a bottle of Comp Cams' zinc additive will cost a lot less than a set of roller lifters. I don't have to cut spring pockets for larger springs, I don't have to spend money on bigger pushrods, I don't have to spend money on roller rockers, I don't have to fuss with valve lash, etc. (Yeah, I tend to squeak when I walk, I'm so tight. :good: But why spend extra money to create problems that can only be solved with yet more money??)
It's all a matter of making the motor happy in the RPM range where it will spend the majority of its time. From there, all you need to do is remember things like camshaft profile, static compression ratio, intake manifold and the torque converter are all joined at the hip. Do not, do not, do not purchase one without considering all the others.
Screaming Metal
Active Member
Yea Mike....I agree with you! Ha! I love things roller because I can't stand the scuff factor....no matter how slight it is. That being said...I build race motors, twist up up and wring em on out!
Yes, 25 or 30 years ago, the only roller rockers in town were Crane, Isky, and such and they costed $500 to $600 a set. Now, you can get the high quality inexpensive Harland Sharps or Proforms that give you the high dollar performance with a lot lower price tag. Just a little over a hundred, usually. The stuff Mike and I use still costs.....but when your racing.....gotta use racing stuff. If your gonna use the roller can, use the roller lifters....onif its a genuine street roller....the lift is gonna be in the .5-.6 range....where the competitin stuff is gonna be .600+ lift. Now, Its best to set youself up with the correct amount of spring.....so talk to the grinder before purchasing that cam....they'll know about what springs you want to run. Then your turning 9000+ rpm like we do, you' got to to have 400+ fo spring to keep the the lifter in contact with the cam @ hi rpm's. Your street motor don't need this, nor would I advise it. A roller cam is gonna give you a lot less friction in that dept., and the only way to achieve that type of performance in the old days was to un mushroon tappets.....a whole diff. ballgame and a whole nother store.
Keep your setup strong, use judgement, don't go too far or you'll kill your low end. All things rollers are nice, they're expensive. Adding a good roller ccam and lifters and a good valve train is gonna cost you at least 500 for a cam and lifter setup, and thats if you get a good deal. Usually count on 200-300 on cam, 300-400 lifters, roller rockers 100-150 for street ones, 300 for race quality ones, stud girle will be about 150 to 300 depending on the brand and style. Its really easy to sink 2 to 3 grand into your valvetrain.....like Mike said....are you sure? ANd do you have things matched so they'll work together?
A .750 lift roller will have to have special valve notches, your top of your valveguides are gonna need machined and so are your spring seats cause your donna have to run triple springs...so you gotta stay all streetable and have everything to match so things will work together properly....
I realize that you know this already, but for the folks that don't I wanted to make it perfectly clear you don't run a full race roller cam on the street unless you want poor performance and junked engine.
Now,that being said, theres alot of goos street roller grinds out there....enjoy....
Ted, Mike, BlownT,and all the guys are completely right about one thing......Buckets rule! And it don't take alot of motor to get these little things on down a track or the road. Mine is big, bad, and blown but then agian I'm a pro wrench though....I love to tinker....Hydraulics are good for the family car and not adjusting your valves its the way to go. Want solids....they'll run on the street, no problem. Every once in a while.....you'll have to adjust them. couple of times a year.
I wa brought up that you worked on your hotrod. Some folks don't like that. Me, personally, I start getting antsy if I don't adjust my valves every couple of months if I drive it at all. But, thats just me. and do yourseldf a favor also, get the good valvecover gaskets.....I hate oil leaks....it embarrasses me to have a 5000 horse motor hangin out in the breeze, a big 8-71 sing for all she;s worth and have a dawm oily mess on the side of the motor.....
Oh yea, Welcome Aboard!
Yes, 25 or 30 years ago, the only roller rockers in town were Crane, Isky, and such and they costed $500 to $600 a set. Now, you can get the high quality inexpensive Harland Sharps or Proforms that give you the high dollar performance with a lot lower price tag. Just a little over a hundred, usually. The stuff Mike and I use still costs.....but when your racing.....gotta use racing stuff. If your gonna use the roller can, use the roller lifters....onif its a genuine street roller....the lift is gonna be in the .5-.6 range....where the competitin stuff is gonna be .600+ lift. Now, Its best to set youself up with the correct amount of spring.....so talk to the grinder before purchasing that cam....they'll know about what springs you want to run. Then your turning 9000+ rpm like we do, you' got to to have 400+ fo spring to keep the the lifter in contact with the cam @ hi rpm's. Your street motor don't need this, nor would I advise it. A roller cam is gonna give you a lot less friction in that dept., and the only way to achieve that type of performance in the old days was to un mushroon tappets.....a whole diff. ballgame and a whole nother store.
Keep your setup strong, use judgement, don't go too far or you'll kill your low end. All things rollers are nice, they're expensive. Adding a good roller ccam and lifters and a good valve train is gonna cost you at least 500 for a cam and lifter setup, and thats if you get a good deal. Usually count on 200-300 on cam, 300-400 lifters, roller rockers 100-150 for street ones, 300 for race quality ones, stud girle will be about 150 to 300 depending on the brand and style. Its really easy to sink 2 to 3 grand into your valvetrain.....like Mike said....are you sure? ANd do you have things matched so they'll work together?
A .750 lift roller will have to have special valve notches, your top of your valveguides are gonna need machined and so are your spring seats cause your donna have to run triple springs...so you gotta stay all streetable and have everything to match so things will work together properly....
I realize that you know this already, but for the folks that don't I wanted to make it perfectly clear you don't run a full race roller cam on the street unless you want poor performance and junked engine.
Now,that being said, theres alot of goos street roller grinds out there....enjoy....
Ted, Mike, BlownT,and all the guys are completely right about one thing......Buckets rule! And it don't take alot of motor to get these little things on down a track or the road. Mine is big, bad, and blown but then agian I'm a pro wrench though....I love to tinker....Hydraulics are good for the family car and not adjusting your valves its the way to go. Want solids....they'll run on the street, no problem. Every once in a while.....you'll have to adjust them. couple of times a year.
I wa brought up that you worked on your hotrod. Some folks don't like that. Me, personally, I start getting antsy if I don't adjust my valves every couple of months if I drive it at all. But, thats just me. and do yourseldf a favor also, get the good valvecover gaskets.....I hate oil leaks....it embarrasses me to have a 5000 horse motor hangin out in the breeze, a big 8-71 sing for all she;s worth and have a dawm oily mess on the side of the motor.....
Oh yea, Welcome Aboard!
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