427 BBC Pistons, etc

[fletcherson]

I use to rebuild engines routinely and had decent connections for parts and machine work, but time has went by, people and business have moved on, I have been out of the business and out of touch and am now in shock by the prices I have seen on components. My issue is the 1967 427 I have in my new to me T was built to run 1/4 mile passes and has a solid lift cam, iron closed chamber heads, and high compression dome pistons with a tunnel ram. Not great for cruising even the way I like to drive. It is unrealistic to think I can make it run right on pump gas, etc the way it is. I like the core setup and am trying to decide whether to change the pistons, cam, etc or switch it out for a SBC 383 that I also have. It should be a very easy swap and I have a tunnel for it also, so not a lot of aesthetic difference. There are pro's and cons on both sides: internal engine components for the BBC vs flywheel, headers, etc for the SBC. I want to run the big block due to being a little out of the ordinary and being overstated, as a rod should be, in my opinion. Anyone have a decent source for internal parts?

 

[baddawgcustoms]

I have a 396 with the same casting as the 427 so it could be bored for the 427 and still have thick walls. I was considering using it in my car, and when pricing parts with my local speed shop/machine shop, he quoted me $225 for stock cast Pistons, I think $315 for hypers so it wasn't that bad. Clevite bearings were about $125, so I really considered it but had too many parts for a sbc already to make financial sense. Cams aren't but a few bucks more either. I'd definitely stick with the 427 de tuned a bit. Hell a stock 427 has way more balls in a T than most of the T drivers! You'll run out of guts before IT runs out of glory! my local machine shop hooked me up with a complete engine kit for my 350 for very few dollars more than the big box store and he appreciated it a LOT more! I know shops like that are few and far between these days, but lucky to have a brilliant machine shop owner near me. (Not one of those fancy shmancy shops. It's a shop with real gearheads!).

 

[Mike]

I suspect this will be one of those cases where 10 different people will have 35 different answers.

Here is my advice. Find yourself a local supplier, one who deals with product lines you are familiar with and know to be of high quality. Make no compromises, based on the size of a price tag, as that can be a slippery slope down the road. Using these suggestions, you are not only supporting your local economy, you are also getting parts you can more reliably depend on.

 

[fletcherson]

I have a 396 with the same casting as the 427 so it could be bored for the 427 and still have thick walls. I was considering using it in my car, and when pricing parts with my local speed shop/machine shop, he quoted me $225 for stock cast Pistons, I think $315 for hypers so it wasn't that bad. Clevite bearings were about $125, so I really considered it but had too many parts for a sbc already to make financial sense. Cams aren't but a few bucks more either. I'd definitely stick with the 427 de tuned a bit. Hell a stock 427 has way more balls in a T than most of the T drivers! You'll run out of guts before IT runs out of glory! my local machine shop hooked me up with a complete engine kit for my 350 for very few dollars more than the big box store and he appreciated it a LOT more! I know shops like that are few and far between these days, but lucky to have a brilliant machine shop owner near me. (Not one of those fancy shmancy shops. It's a shop with real gearheads!).

I am in the same boat. I have a very good selection of sbc and pontiac parts, none for bbc except for universal with sbc, etc...I tried to buy the T without the drivetrain because the guy I got it from was going to put it in a CRX...(yea, a honda!) But he had a heart attack and needed money for medical bills, etc so now I have it and like it and always wanted a 427, this is the first one...I want to use it. I was pricing parts and was at 600.00 for pistons and rings but that was for forged. I think the engine deserves them if I decide to go with a blower down the road. It now has forged crank, aluminum flywheel etc.... It is a counter engine that would be a direct warranty replacement for the 67/68 vette, chevelle, etc, so I know it's well worth it's salt. If it was just about money, I would market it to someone doing a numbers matching restoration or the like, but this is my new toy! I used to buy the parts to rebuild a sbc for around 300.00 with pistons, cam, etc...Times have changed. There are still two guys around (I think) that I have used for machine work who may have some interest, they too like the old stuff. I just don't see them often and have gotten used to the brown truck bringing me gifts!

 

[Screaming Metal]

I love the old stuff, but the American Dollars have degraded somewhat. Anyway....
Check into a good quality rebuild kit, can be had for $350-$400....Mellings, Speed Pro, etc.... check around
A good quality motor kit with slugs-cast/forged, ie, hi-perf., your talking about $600, thats with everything, gaskets, rings, pistons, bearings, oil pump, Timing set, gasket set, ....
All you gotta do is shop around....
MotorState, Mellings, FelPro, and others....theres plenty of motor kit folks out there....

 

[Screaming Metal]

If your want tame that BB to run it on the street....have the pistons milled, run a thick headgasket....
Run the Tunnel if you want....can be done....
396/427....can't beat em with a stick! Nice motors! I always loved the 396's, just gotta put good bearings in them with a good oilpump and they'll run 4ever.

 

[Screaming Metal]

Put it like this, you can have a mildly built Big Block, with hyper pistons, a fairly mild bumpstick and that Tunnelram....and it'll be just as fast as that 383 and won't have to strain as much to do it....and won't have to be as radical....

 

[Screaming Metal]

Heres a nice rebuild kit, they even have them for the 427's....

www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Chevy-396-6-5-Master-Engine-Rebuild-Kit-1967-1970-/260664747208?

 

[fletcherson]

Heres a nice rebuild kit, they even have them for the 427's....

www.ebay.com/itm/GM-Chevy-396-6-5-Master-Engine-Rebuild-Kit-1967-1970-/260664747208?

That is a good price! Thanks! I didn't think of ordering engine parts on ebay. Looks like name brand quality parts too. I was looking at a couple well known speed shops that are local to me and they wanted over 600 for pistons alone.

 

[Mike]

There will be those who will vehemently disagree, but fleaBay is the very last place I would look for parts.

A few years back, a seller on that site was buying cranks from a large and rather popular crank importer. The cranks were all new and unused, which is exactly how this individual sold them. But they were all line scraps, where maybe one or two journals had been screwed up and could not be sold as the company advertised them. So this fine, upstanding individual was buying these line scraps for scrap prices, grinding the bad journals to whatever it took to clean them up, and selling them as 'brand-new and unused XXXXX brand cranks'.

Of course, it was always up to the buyer to purchase 6 or 7 standard rod bearings, along with 1 or 2 bearings to fit the .020 under, .030 under, or .040 under journals.

Again, this is going to drag people well out of their comfort zones, but it is time to be realistic about things.

Doing all the machine work to properly bring a block, crank, heads and rods back to where they need to be is going to run somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000, give or take $150. Yeah, I know, you can run a ball hone through an old block to put some shiny on the cylinder walls, then drag it to the car wash, where you can spend a quarter to wash it off. But that doesn't get accumulated junk out from behind those old cam bearings that you haven't checked. And whilst a ball hone can make a cylinder wall look all nice and shiny, it certainly cannot get taper out of a worn cylinder. And nothing will take radial tension out of a set of rings faster than trying to run them through cylinders that look like funnels. How many miles are on those rod bolts? And when you replace them, it is pretty rare to not distort the fork of the rod, to a point where they need to be resized. Take a look at the deck surfaces on that block and those heads and you'll likely see them waving at you. Valves with margins so thin you could shave with them. Worn guides that are going to be flooding cylinders with oil, as soon as you improve ring seal one iota.

When it comes to parts, you can go baby chick mode (cheap, cheap, cheap), or you can buy quality parts that you can better rely on being right. Yes, a Clevite bearing is going to cost more than an ACME bearing, but do you want an aluminum-backed bearing with a rock-hard facing, or a steel-backed bearing with a softer facing that will provide better embedability? Yes, a Melling oil pump is going to cost more than an ACME oil pump, but do you want something that has been machined properly, or do you want something that was made as cheaply as possible?

When the guy at the car show says he rebuilt his engine for $400, that is when you nod, smile and realize the guy is full of bull exhaust. Throwing new rings on a tapered cylinder wall and tossing new bearings onto a worn crank does not constitute rebuilding an engine.

Trust me, there are only two ways to build an engine. The right way, and the cheap way. People always hate to hear this, but if a car project is so thinly funded that someone needs to save a couple hundred dollars on an engine rebuild, then that someone is playing in the wrong game and should go find a hobby he can afford. If you are going to properly rebuild a BBC, set aside $3,500 for the job. If you're fortunate, you might get to hang on to $100, or so. But when you get the engine back together, you will have the peace of mind, knowing everything is right.

 

[fletcherson]

There will be those who will vehemently disagree, but fleaBay is the very last place I would look for parts.

A few years back, a seller on that site was buying cranks from a large and rather popular crank importer. The cranks were all new and unused, which is exactly how this individual sold them. But they were all line scraps, where maybe one or two journals had been screwed up and could not be sold as the company advertised them. So this fine, upstanding individual was buying these line scraps for scrap prices, grinding the bad journals to whatever it took to clean them up, and selling them as 'brand-new and unused XXXXX brand cranks'.

Of course, it was always up to the buyer to purchase 6 or 7 standard rod bearings, along with 1 or 2 bearings to fit the .020 under, .030 under, or .040 under journals.

Again, this is going to drag people well out of their comfort zones, but it is time to be realistic about things.

Doing all the machine work to properly bring a block, crank, heads and rods back to where they need to be is going to run somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,000, give or take $150. Yeah, I know, you can run a ball hone through an old block to put some shiny on the cylinder walls, then drag it to the car wash, where you can spend a quarter to wash it off. But that doesn't get accumulated junk out from behind those old cam bearings that you haven't checked. And whilst a ball hone can make a cylinder wall look all nice and shiny, it certainly cannot get taper out of a worn cylinder. And nothing will take radial tension out of a set of rings faster than trying to run them through cylinders that look like funnels. How many miles are on those rod bolts? And when you replace them, it is pretty rare to not distort the fork of the rod, to a point where they need to be resized. Take a look at the deck surfaces on that block and those heads and you'll likely see them waving at you. Valves with margins so thin you could shave with them. Worn guides that are going to be flooding cylinders with oil, as soon as you improve ring seal one iota.

When it comes to parts, you can go baby chick mode (cheap, cheap, cheap), or you can buy quality parts that you can better rely on being right. Yes, a Clevite bearing is going to cost more than an ACME bearing, but do you want an aluminum-backed bearing with a rock-hard facing, or a steel-backed bearing with a softer facing that will provide better embedability? Yes, a Melling oil pump is going to cost more than an ACME oil pump, but do you want something that has been machined properly, or do you want something that was made as cheaply as possible?

When the guy at the car show says he rebuilt his engine for $400, that is when you nod, smile and realize the guy is full of bull exhaust. Throwing new rings on a tapered cylinder wall and tossing new bearings onto a worn crank does not constitute rebuilding an engine.

Trust me, there are only two ways to build an engine. The right way, and the cheap way. People always hate to hear this, but if a car project is so thinly funded that someone needs to save a couple hundred dollars on an engine rebuild, then that someone is playing in the wrong game and should go find a hobby he can afford. If you are going to properly rebuild a BBC, set aside $3,500 for the job. If you're fortunate, you might get to hang on to $100, or so. But when you get the engine back together, you will have the peace of mind, knowing everything is right.

I do not disagree with your engine logic, I do understand the value of correct sized and matched components and I refuse to use junk parts, why rebuild it if it's not going to be right? Why waste new parts and my time? I don't think you have to re-machine everything every time, depending on the purpose of the engine and it's condition. You do have to check it. My post is relating to trying to find reasonably priced quality parts as opposed to being gouged for parts because they are being sold by a "speed shop" or for "vintage" or "hot rods". I have purchased lots of quality name brand parts from wholesalers, etc for very reasonable prices in the past, just not recently, and I refuse to pay more for parts to freshen a good motor than a new crate engine costs. Clevite bearings are clevite bearings no matter where they are sold or how much they cost as long as they are first quality parts, not rejects.. I am taking a professionally built engine with very low miles on it (it has had all of the machine work done correctly) and simply taming it down to be a more streetable piece, not trying to resurrect a 100 K-mile oil burner. Regardless of how much machine work it does or doesn't need, the parts prices are the issue to me at the moment. I'm basically lowering the compression and changing the cam/lifters. I expect to replace the bearings, gaskets, rings, etc whether it actually needs new bearings or not just because it's open unless they are ridiculously clean and unworn(bearings). I will of course measure to be sure everything is within tolerance, but I do not expect to do much more than hone to size for the new slugs, and balance the rotating assembly providing everything checks out. Again, this is a good fresh motor, just too radical to be driven on the street. We will see once I get it all apart.. Thanks for the input!

 

[fletcherson]

I do not disagree with your engine logic, I do understand the value of correct sized and matched components and I refuse to use junk parts, why rebuild it if it's not going to be right? Why waste new parts and my time? I don't think you have to re-machine everything every time, depending on the purpose of the engine and it's condition. You do have to check it. My post is relating to trying to find reasonably priced quality parts as opposed to being gouged for parts because they are being sold by a "speed shop" or for "vintage" or "hot rods". I have purchased lots of quality name brand parts from wholesalers, etc for very reasonable prices in the past, just not recently, and I refuse to pay more for parts to freshen a good motor than a new crate engine costs. Clevite bearings are clevite bearings no matter where they are sold or how much they cost as long as they are first quality parts, not rejects.. I am taking a professionally built engine with very low miles on it (it has had all of the machine work done correctly) and simply taming it down to be a more streetable piece, not trying to resurrect a 100 K-mile oil burner. Regardless of how much machine work it does or doesn't need, the parts prices are the issue to me at the moment. I'm basically lowering the compression and changing the cam/lifters. I expect to replace the bearings, gaskets, rings, etc whether it actually needs new bearings or not just because it's open unless they are ridiculously clean and unworn(bearings). I will of course measure to be sure everything is within tolerance, but I do not expect to do much more than hone to size for the new slugs, and balance the rotating assembly providing everything checks out. Again, this is a good fresh motor, just too radical to be driven on the street. We will see once I get it all apart.. Thanks for the input!

As for the affordability of the hobby: I agree that it is an expensive hobby, but spending more than necessary for engine or any other parts is just stupid and wasting money that can be spent on other parts, beer, eating out, or what ever your vice is. The guys that I associate with who actually have money, don't waste it by paying more than stuff is worth if they can help it.

 

[Screaming Metal]

Just let me say that as long as you get quality name brand parts from Mabbco Enterprises, you'd be OK. Now, if you get a Shin Lu Cam and Draco Pistons,well , all bets are off then.
I realize that some of use can't afford the best of the best....but back in my day, I had a big ole Mellings Catalog, and several others. Alot of folks didn't like Mellings because that didn't the made Hi-Perf oil pumps. They had the exact same cams for the solid lifter 302 and 327 motors....the #s stamped on the end cam from the same lots. I had checked them up on my cam stand, then moved them to the granite plate on V-blocks and with a degree wheel and dial indicaters started checking. Same animal.
Anyway, as long as you have good quality parts, yes, you should be good to go.
I agree with Mike we should buy the parts from the locals when we can, to help support them.

I went to have my Husky brush cutters carb redone at a local small engine repair. After a few weeks, they called me and said that the repairs would be more than thecutter was worth.?????I said, 'Dude, I wanted the carb rebuilt....'
Yada, yada,yada....guy said the cylinder was worn out, because it was running rich (2 cycle), this, that and the other was wrong....
---I did not wanna hurt his feelings........---
Anyway, after all his sales talk and stuff, I go to Tractor Supply, they had a Managers Special, a String trimmer/brush cutter for $95. The Husky I paid $325 about 6 years ago....
FelPro, Holley, and alot of MFG'ers that we all hold dear are having things made overseas. As long as they meet the spec's, I'll use them though I don't like to.
They say its too expensive to have the Americans build it anymore. Don't be shocked when you look at the box your new Valvecovers came in and it has made in Korea, or Taiwan....possibly even China. They now make parts for our fighter jets..........
My, how our politicians have decieved us....

 

[Screaming Metal]

I give it about 5 more years and we'll be seeing a Honda V6 being put into buckets somewhere....Possibly Toyota V8's. You can buy the Chinese Choppers all dazzled out with a 250cc motor on them.

Think I'll get a Yugo Motor, mount a small WhippleCharger on it and throw about 15 PSI of boost to it and see how many seconds it takes for it to explode like a light bulb. Wonder if anyone on YouTube would watch....

 

[fletcherson]

Just let me say that as long as you get quality name brand parts from Mabbco Enterprises, you'd be OK. Now, if you get a Shin Lu Cam and Draco Pistons,well , all bets are off then.
I realize that some of use can't afford the best of the best....but back in my day, I had a big ole Mellings Catalog, and several others. Alot of folks didn't like Mellings because that didn't the made Hi-Perf oil pumps. They had the exact same cams for the solid lifter 302 and 327 motors....the #s stamped on the end cam from the same lots. I had checked them up on my cam stand, then moved them to the granite plate on V-blocks and with a degree wheel and dial indicaters started checking. Same animal.
Anyway, as long as you have good quality parts, yes, you should be good to go.
I agree with Mike we should buy the parts from the locals when we can, to help support them.

I went to have my Husky brush cutters carb redone at a local small engine repair. After a few weeks, they called me and said that the repairs would be more than thecutter was worth.?????I said, 'Dude, I wanted the carb rebuilt....'
Yada, yada,yada....guy said the cylinder was worn out, because it was running rich (2 cycle), this, that and the other was wrong....
---I did not wanna hurt his feelings........---
Anyway, after all his sales talk and stuff, I go to Tractor Supply, they had a Managers Special, a String trimmer/brush cutter for $95. The Husky I paid $325 about 6 years ago....
FelPro, Holley, and alot of MFG'ers that we all hold dear are having things made overseas. As long as they meet the spec's, I'll use them though I don't like to.
They say its too expensive to have the Americans build it anymore. Don't be shocked when you look at the box your new Valvecovers came in and it has made in Korea, or Taiwan....possibly even China. They now make parts for our fighter jets..........
My, how our politicians have decieved us....

I recently had an issue with a new flat tappet cam wiping a lobe during the first five minutes of break in with rotella (still has zinc and phosphorous and was recommended by Melling) and the cam manufacturers (not Melling) lube. It was a very mild RV type cam with the proper springs, lifters, rocker geometry, etc..on a otherwise good stock engine with even compression, good bearings, and oil pressure that I was trying to get more towing power out of in a truck. This is the only time I have ever had this happen since 1981 or so. I won't name the company, but we all know and use them and I have had good luck with them until this one. I contacted my local speed shop and they actually warranted the parts, even though the bearings were now shot, but I was pissed and asked what the heck was up with the obvious garbage metal. I was told by the cam manufacturers tech that most of the American cam manufacturers get their new blanks from the same place and it is not in America. The rockwell hardness is advertised to be sufficient, but the results tell me different. My point is: very few things are actually totally made in the USA anymore. The well known and trusted companies are either bought for their names, or the EPA regulations and labor costs, etc... make it impossible for them to manufacture here and still compete.

 

[fletcherson]

I give it about 5 more years and we'll be seeing a Honda V6 being put into buckets somewhere....Possibly Toyota V8's. You can buy the Chinese Choppers all dazzled out with a 250cc motor on them.

Think I'll get a Yugo Motor, mount a small WhippleCharger on it and throw about 15 PSI of boost to it and see how many seconds it takes for it to explode like a light bulb. Wonder if anyone on YouTube would watch....

I had an idea of boosting a Mazda rotary, an old RX4 with the 4V carb, dual points, and coils, and seeing what it would do for the guys at the car show...

 

[fletcherson]

I had an idea of boosting a Mazda rotary, an old RX4 with the 4V carb, dual points, and coils, and seeing what it would do for the guys at the car show...

I also get and agree with the theory of supporting the local economy, but I have realized that a lot of the local businesses are not local. They pay a few local clerks a minimum wage to answer the phone and take orders, but they do not manufacture or even stock parts locally. They take your order, charge for the cost of running their business, shipping, tax, etc...and order the stuff in. You can have it shipped to your door or go and pick it up at their place if it makes you feel good, but why should I pay more for the same over seas made part to have someone else order it when I can do it myself from home and save money on the part and even avoid sales tax in many cases? The problem that we are hinting around about via the "local economy" debate is much bigger than we can impact on a local scale. It is really out of control and is exactly as designed by our leaders with the NAFTA and other similar devices. In my opinion, the best way I can support the local economy is to keep as much money local as possible including in my pocket. With that being said, local service providers are still local as long as they are actually locally owned and operated and I do go out of my way to support those business even at a higher price. I am one of them.

 

[Mike]

I do not disagree with your engine logic, I do understand the value of correct sized and matched components and I refuse to use junk parts, why rebuild it if it's not going to be right?

Exactly!

I don't think you have to re-machine everything every time, depending on the purpose of the engine and it's condition.

As long as you have the ability and the measuring devices to verify sizes, then you can be correct. But to throw in new rings and bearings, without verifying sizes? Well, that is just risking throwing good money after bad.

My post is relating to trying to find reasonably priced quality parts as opposed to being gouged for parts because they are being sold by a "speed shop" or for "vintage" or "hot rods". I have purchased lots of quality name brand parts from wholesalers, etc for very reasonable prices in the past, just not recently, and I refuse to pay more for parts to freshen a good motor than a new crate engine costs.

Again, so long as you are able to verify sizing on new parts, then you are correct. But what I am saying is just because a bearing comes out of a Clevite box does not mean it is going to be perfect. I've seen SBC rod bearings vary as much as 0.0007" across the face. So, which side of the bearing should a guy measure to determine oil clearance, the tight side, or the loose side?

Clevite bearings are clevite bearings no matter where they are sold or how much they cost as long as they are first quality parts, not rejects..

See above.

I am taking a professionally built engine with very low miles on it (it has had all of the machine work done correctly) and simply taming it down to be a more streetable piece, not trying to resurrect a 100 K-mile oil burner.

Again, if you have the tools and the ability to check everything, then you can verify that all that machine work actually was done, and that is was actually done correctly. Until then, you are taking another person's word that machining operations were done, and done correctly.

And the reason I urge people to deal with their local suppliers, rather than some warehouse halfway across the nation, is because when you do pull a new part out of a box and find it is not manufactured correctly, you have someone to take that part to, someone who will likely have the ability to verify the problem exists, as well as someone to bear the cost of shipping the defective part back and shipping in the new part. I worked in the high performance automotive aftermarket for 37 years, doing both wholesale and retail sales, so I know the caliber of a frightening number of phone salesmen. And I also know that if you are trying to deal with someone face-to-face on enough parts to freshen an engine, you can almost always negotiate lower prices. Believe me, I know how the game is played.

 

[Screaming Metal]

Heres another one....as you can see, you can get nice set for a little....if thats what you want. Just shop around....
http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/ek-ek1195
I just priced a set of pistons from O'Reillys....not too bad
You can also get kits thru Napa, O'Reillys, Advanced, AutoZone and the like....

 

[fletcherson]

Exactly!

As long as you have the ability and the measuring devices to verify sizes, then you can be correct. But to throw in new rings and bearings, without verifying sizes? Well, that is just risking throwing good money after bad.

Again, so long as you are able to verify sizing on new parts, then you are correct. But what I am saying is just because a bearing comes out of a Clevite box does not mean it is going to be perfect. I've seen SBC rod bearings vary as much as 0.0007" across the face. So, which side of the bearing should a guy measure to determine oil clearance, the tight side, or the loose side?

See above.

Again, if you have the tools and the ability to check everything, then you can verify that all that machine work actually was done, and that is was actually done correctly. Until then, you are taking another person's word that machining operations were done, and done correctly.

And the reason I urge people to deal with their local suppliers, rather than some warehouse halfway across the nation, is because when you do pull a new part out of a box and find it is not manufactured correctly, you have someone to take that part to, someone who will likely have the ability to verify the problem exists, as well as someone to bear the cost of shipping the defective part back and shipping in the new part. I worked in the high performance automotive aftermarket for 37 years, doing both wholesale and retail sales, so I know the caliber of a frightening number of phone salesmen. And I also know that if you are trying to deal with someone face-to-face on enough parts to freshen an engine, you can almost always negotiate lower prices. Believe me, I know how the game is played.

I don't disagree with your thinking on the engine related measuring and parts quality issues. I have received name brand bearings that were actually labeled wrong on the box and on the part, so I know it happens. I also think there are too many people who just throw good or at least new parts in bad or worn out engines and hope they will be good when we who understand the science and physics related to how they work know the value and importance of properly sized and textured mating surfaces. I also appreciate actually receiving quality professional service and support when purchasing technical or mechanical items and services, but there are very few of those businesses around anymore, it seems. Believe me, when I find them, I am loyal to them. One local nationally renowned speed shop that was founded in my area used to have three stores locally and used to provide machine and fab services, etc...They began with catalog sales and that was good, you could sit in the library and study all of the new toys, etc...Then along came the internet and they started marketing via the web, but the services went away, then the business to the stores dropped off or was less profitable, so they shut down two of them. That was OK by me because the last few times I went there to actually get a part that I needed there and then and was willing to pay their price for had to be ordered by the sales kid anyways. Of course that was only after I showed him what the part was and where to find it on their web site. I do know one of the guys who worked in their mail/web order office before he retired and he used to build engines for them back when they raced Pontiacs, so I will say they do have some knowledgeable people staffing the phones or at least at the phone center, if you are lucky enough to get one on the phone, but those guys are few and far between. Also, this company does back their products. Unfortunately, they are now in my opinion a marketing/retail company that sells speed related parts driven by the bottom line(a warehouse across the country). The days of local businesses providing quality local services and employing local people are pretty much dead because they can't compete with the world market/economy that we now live in. It's not my doing or even my wish. In fact, it aggravates the life out of me, but what's a guy to do? I used to be able to go to a local engine parts supplier and get quality parts for a good price and they knew what was up because they rebuilt engines and used their products. The "speed shops" used to install and test their product as well. I really miss those days. If you have a local company like that, by all means do whatever you can to encourage them to remain in business and not change...and give me their number! I presume there are still some good local shops, they are just difficult to find if your not familiar with them.