700R4 positioning

[Zandoz]

Bill,

I was thinking of a small sized tubular skeleton that would be a stressed backbone. Then just a lite gauge aluminum or glass tunnel that hugged it. If the drive shaft is above the floor level you will have to put a tunnel in it anyway so why not make it serve two purposes?

Something else to think about for anyone building these types of cars. Having fairly short drive shafts can sometimes cause clearance issues. You might consider a Independent Rear Suspension system. The differential housing is permanently fixed letting you build a very close (as in low) floor tunnel. While I know the the cost can sometimes be a factor there are a number of factory cars using IRS units and plenty of crashed ones in the bone yards. They really aren't that hard to adapt to your use. Plus they do draw people's attention. Just something to think about. We're building one based on the small Winters V8 center case. While they now do offer that case in an IRS configuration it was actually to narrow for our purpose so we designed our own side bells to fit our needs. The unit is at Mark William now getting the stub axles and drive plates machined. Once we get it assembled with the inboard brakes I'll see about posting it for you to see. This will not be an ad to sell them as they are targeted for a specialty car we are building. Just giving you something to think about. I'll be in touch.

George

I'm having a hard time visualizing this skeleton arrangement...But it sounds like it would impede access to the transmission from above. One of the many unusual requirements for this build is that everything possible has to be serviceable from above...and if possible from my wheelchair. The transmission and drive shaft tunnel needs to be removable for servicing.

I would have loved to go with an IRS set up, but that's beyond my budget. What I'm using is a $100 T-bird Turbo Coupe 8.8 Trac-Lok disc brake rear end. The suspension is going to be built out of salvaged out dated racing components. This is definitely a low budget K.I.S.S. project.

It's looking like the drive shaft will end up being around 15"-16" long. It looks like the only clearance issue will be the seats not being as low as I would like....but I can live with it. When I start obsessing over it, I look at these...

 

[fluidfloyd]

I'm having a hard time visualizing this skeleton arrangement...But it sounds like it would impede access to the transmission from above. One of the many unusual requirements for this build is that everything possible has to be serviceable from above...and if possible from my wheelchair. The transmission and drive shaft tunnel needs to be removable for servicing.

I would have loved to go with an IRS set up, but that's beyond my budget. What I'm using is a $100 T-bird Turbo Coupe 8.8 Trac-Lok disc brake rear end. The suspension is going to be built out of salvaged out dated racing components. This is definitely a low budget K.I.S.S. project.

It's looking like the drive shaft will end up being around 15"-16" long. It looks like the only clearance issue will be the seats not being as low as I would like....but I can live with it. When I start obsessing over it, I look at these...

View attachment 10327 View attachment 10328

Bill,

I apologize as I didn't realize you were chair bound. I understand the transmission having to coming out the top. You can add torsional stiffness in other ways if your are building the chassis from the ground up. You can incorporate stressed shear panels or tubular trussed panels at the firewall and at the rear of of the body at the rear kick up. I personally would build the frame rails out of 2" x 4" rectangular tube or do a double tube trussed frame. Either of those will put a lot of vertical stiffness in the frame and will help you torsionally. By making the frame section taller you will be able to use cross members that can have dropped sections for trans or drive shaft clearance but still have taller section where it welds or bolts into the main side rails. The backbone I was speaking of is just a series of vertical and diagonal tubes that put a stiff backbone down the center of the car. They would need to flair out and possible up to clear the transmission and tie into the firewall. Same goes for the rear section although it would not need to flair. You could even make it a structural unit that would unbolt to service the drive train. I don't mean to complicate anyone's plans as these cars have been getting down the highways for many years before my time. I just like to do things different sometimes. I am going to post a link to a PDF book download that should be an interest to anyone that builds any kind of cars from the ground up. If you google or ask anyone of racing sports car design this is the one they all say is a must have. It has been out of print for a number of years and brings good money when it does pop up. I found it in a scanned PDF form a while back and down loaded it for some friends. I do have the original book at home and refer to it quite often You might download it and read though it as you will see a section on shear panels etc. Lots of things that can be used in the bucket world for sure. If you have trouble let me know and I'll email you the complete file although I will have to go up the street to the county library and their T1 system. Hope this will be of some interest and help to everyone here. Since you are using Draftsight you might want to let your mind dabble in the world of hard cornering, simplicity and roadsters. No telling what you might come up with including an IRS. Good Luck.

George

Racing_and_Sports_Car_Chassis_Design.pdf

 

[Screaming Metal]

Hahaha....what George said! The 'Little Car Racing Bible'!
Like he said, they've started mass producing the japanese IRS's that can take some power being thrown to them. Good thing, they're cheap. Some of them are attached to a locating frame that is in return anchored with locating tabs on the frame. You usually go IRs for about 1/4 of the cost of a jag setup.
As George said you could locate your 'BackBone' with frame tabs the way we do alot of suspension components or a mid-motor plates....would also add to accessability for you,
At the rear is where you have to worry about 'Big Butt', so-to-speak. Most rearend movement is limited to a few inches. Anymore than that you'd need bump stops. Racing suspensions are pretty firm. They have to be to absorb the shock and stresses at speed going around a track. Since this is gonna be on the street, you'll have to worry about potholes....
Up front at the trans tunnel, the motor movment will be small.

We saw a T setup for a person such as yourself over at the big carshows over on the west coast, last year. Barret-Jacksons, had a slightly extended body T there . Right behind the seat was a cutout, the width of the benchseat and was wide enough for the person to pivot around to stash his/hers wheelchair after folding it down. Might give you a idea, IF, you could find a slightly extended body. maybe even one of our sponsors could add a setup to their reg. extended body for the mobily challanged....just a thought.
This thing was a extended body, looked custom made, and between the rear of the seat to where the turtle deck attached was where this cutout was....it had carpeting in the cutout, drain holes in the bottom. Was very well thought out

 

[GAB]

Another good book on the frame design subject is "CHASSIS ENGINEERING" by Herb Adams. It is published by HP Books and I have no knowledge as to if it is still available or from where.

There is a very good chapter on frame design that includes evaluating designs by building balsa wood and cardboard models and loading them with simple weights. It starts with the simple ladder frame and goes to complicated NASCAR configurations.

 

[Zandoz]

Bill,

I apologize as I didn't realize you were chair bound. I understand the transmission having to coming out the top. You can add torsional stiffness in other ways if your are building the chassis from the ground up. You can incorporate stressed shear panels or tubular trussed panels at the firewall and at the rear of of the body at the rear kick up. I personally would build the frame rails out of 2" x 4" rectangular tube or do a double tube trussed frame. Either of those will put a lot of vertical stiffness in the frame and will help you torsionally. By making the frame section taller you will be able to use cross members that can have dropped sections for trans or drive shaft clearance but still have taller section where it welds or bolts into the main side rails. The backbone I was speaking of is just a series of vertical and diagonal tubes that put a stiff backbone down the center of the car. They would need to flair out and possible up to clear the transmission and tie into the firewall. Same goes for the rear section although it would not need to flair. You could even make it a structural unit that would unbolt to service the drive train. I don't mean to complicate anyone's plans as these cars have been getting down the highways for many years before my time. I just like to do things different sometimes. I am going to post a link to a PDF book download that should be an interest to anyone that builds any kind of cars from the ground up. If you google or ask anyone of racing sports car design this is the one they all say is a must have. It has been out of print for a number of years and brings good money when it does pop up. I found it in a scanned PDF form a while back and down loaded it for some friends. I do have the original book at home and refer to it quite often You might download it and read though it as you will see a section on shear panels etc. Lots of things that can be used in the bucket world for sure. If you have trouble let me know and I'll email you the complete file although I will have to go up the street to the county library and their T1 system. Hope this will be of some interest and help to everyone here. Since you are using Draftsight you might want to let your mind dabble in the world of hard cornering, simplicity and roadsters. No telling what you might come up with including an IRS. Good Luck.

George

Racing_and_Sports_Car_Chassis_Design.pdf

No need for apologies at all. I'm not completely wheel chair bound...I can walk to get around the house, but I'm limited to about 50 ft or so. I'll probably be more dependent on the wheelchair before this project is done, so I'm planning ahead on it.

As the plan stands right now, the frame rails are going to be 2x4 .125" wall tube, in a pretty much a typical straight rail with a rear kick-up configuration. Two mid 2x2 cross members...one for the transmission, and the other for the rear drive shaft loop and floor support. A third 1-1/2x1-1/2 cross member is planned for the top of the kickup. Once everything frame mounted is in place I'm planning on adding the K diagonals running from either side of the drive shaft loop to just under the firewall...and fastened mid way to the transmission cross member. Also, I'm planning on extruded aluminum beams reinforcing the cowl/dash, and just behind the door. I had hoped to do the extruded beams running lengthwise on either side of the transmission/driveshaft tunnel, but that looks like it will intrude too much into the already cramped pedal space. For the firewall and between the two frame kick-ups, I was planning on 1/8" aluminum. Considering the short length (aiming for around a 92" wheelbase), and the light weight & low power of the little V6 that will be propelling this thing, I think that frame should be sufficient...but then I could be wrong....LOL. I should have a better idea on how workable these plans are by this time next week...We're planning on a stop by Ron's place to get his opinion.

That PDF sounds interesting...Unfortunately all I could get to download was a portion of the cover page. When it comes to small light weight cars, that is something I've been involved or interested in off and on for most of my life. This is what made a gearhead out of me...
http://crosleykook.blogspot.com/2012/02/little-red-car-gene-voigts-crosley.html

That's my uncle Gene, and I grew up with him building that little red roadster. It was going through his old hot rod magazines that got me fixated on the old short wheelbase T Buckets like Tweedy Pie. Latter I did everything from working in a Formula Vee and dune buggy construction shop, to restoring all kinds of British, French and Italian sports cars. I even spent 2 years in school in industrial design as prep for going on to automotive design...But that didn't pan out. Wanting to build my own car like my uncle did has been something I've wanted all my life. Now it's a bucket list endeavor. I plan on keeping at it as long as there is any way possible.

 

[Zandoz]

Hahaha....what George said! The 'Little Car Racing Bible'!
Like he said, they've started mass producing the japanese IRS's that can take some power being thrown to them. Good thing, they're cheap. Some of them are attached to a locating frame that is in return anchored with locating tabs on the frame. You usually go IRs for about 1/4 of the cost of a jag setup.
As George said you could locate your 'BackBone' with frame tabs the way we do alot of suspension components or a mid-motor plates....would also add to accessability for you,
At the rear is where you have to worry about 'Big Butt', so-to-speak. Most rearend movement is limited to a few inches. Anymore than that you'd need bump stops. Racing suspensions are pretty firm. They have to be to absorb the shock and stresses at speed going around a track. Since this is gonna be on the street, you'll have to worry about potholes....
Up front at the trans tunnel, the motor movment will be small.

We saw a T setup for a person such as yourself over at the big carshows over on the west coast, last year. Barret-Jacksons, had a slightly extended body T there . Right behind the seat was a cutout, the width of the benchseat and was wide enough for the person to pivot around to stash his/hers wheelchair after folding it down. Might give you a idea, IF, you could find a slightly extended body. maybe even one of our sponsors could add a setup to their reg. extended body for the mobily challanged....just a thought.
This thing was a extended body, looked custom made, and between the rear of the seat to where the turtle deck attached was where this cutout was....it had carpeting in the cutout, drain holes in the bottom. Was very well thought out

On the racing suspension issue, the racing components I've got are just the control arms. The uppers will be adjustable for pinion angle, and the frame end of the lowers will be height and somewhat length adjustable. The coil overs will be longer than typical...6" travel. I'm planning on starting with fairly soft 140lb springs, and moving up or down in rate if necessary. The bump stops and/or limiting straps are on the "to do" list.

No doubt about it, I could go crazy on building this thing if I had the fabrication skills and facilities...and the budget to go with them. As is I have to keep reminding myself to keep it simple. A couple months back it took some serious will power to keep from popping on an old Mercedes 450 to use as a donor car, for the whole drive train including the rear axle.

As it stands now, my disability commendations on this project will be it's low step in height, the stretched and slightly widened body, and a small wheel chair trailer.. I'm debating the idea of cutting out a larger than typical door on the driver's side....or somehow putting the driver's seat on lateral tracks to slide over to the existing passenger side door. A while back someone on here brought up the idea of a front wheel drive bucket...that triggered an idea for a FWD bucket, with the rear of the body forming a drop down wheel chair ramp....but something that elaborate is beyond me.

 

[old round fart]

Have you considered a C cab truck? Not long ago Spirit did a C cab with extra long doors to accommodate a person with mobility issues. Email Bob and ask about that. Also Wintec has a longer bucket that will take the chair. Can you lift it over the side or make the whole side open up?

 

[fluidfloyd]

No need for apologies at all. I'm not completely wheel chair bound...I can walk to get around the house, but I'm limited to about 50 ft or so. I'll probably be more dependent on the wheelchair before this project is done, so I'm planning ahead on it.

As the plan stands right now, the frame rails are going to be 2x4 .125" wall tube, in a pretty much a typical straight rail with a rear kick-up configuration. Two mid 2x2 cross members...one for the transmission, and the other for the rear drive shaft loop and floor support. A third 1-1/2x1-1/2 cross member is planned for the top of the kickup. Once everything frame mounted is in place I'm planning on adding the K diagonals running from either side of the drive shaft loop to just under the firewall...and fastened mid way to the transmission cross member. Also, I'm planning on extruded aluminum beams reinforcing the cowl/dash, and just behind the door. I had hoped to do the extruded beams running lengthwise on either side of the transmission/driveshaft tunnel, but that looks like it will intrude too much into the already cramped pedal space. For the firewall and between the two frame kick-ups, I was planning on 1/8" aluminum. Considering the short length (aiming for around a 92" wheelbase), and the light weight & low power of the little V6 that will be propelling this thing, I think that frame should be sufficient...but then I could be wrong....LOL. I should have a better idea on how workable these plans are by this time next week...We're planning on a stop by Ron's place to get his opinion.

That PDF sounds interesting...Unfortunately all I could get to download was a portion of the cover page. When it comes to small light weight cars, that is something I've been involved or interested in off and on for most of my life. This is what made a gearhead out of me...
View attachment 10342 http://crosleykook.blogspot.com/2012/02/little-red-car-gene-voigts-crosley.html

That's my uncle Gene, and I grew up with him building that little red roadster. It was going through his old hot rod magazines that got me fixated on the old short wheelbase T Buckets like Tweedy Pie. Latter I did everything from working in a Formula Vee and dune buggy construction shop, to restoring all kinds of British, French and Italian sports cars. I even spent 2 years in school in industrial design as prep for going on to automotive design...But that didn't pan out. Wanting to build my own car like my uncle did has been something I've wanted all my life. Now it's a bucket list endeavor. I plan on keeping at it as long as there is any way possible.

Bill,

Your uncle Gene was right on the money with that chassis design. Closely resembles the Scarabs of '58, some of the mid '50s Ferrari's, the early Chaparrals and a number of other open cockpit style cars of the era. That truly is a unique car. As to your car....After reading all the input and seeing that you are going to run the 2x4 side rails and K member the frame I doubt you will have any torsional issues. I won't go into a lot tonight but seeing as how you need as much flat floor and surface area as possible I would keep it simple. There have been some suggestions on stretched bodies or T trucks and those would well be worth considering. You might also think about a stretched door that had hinges that would swing the door out and forward till it almost 90 degrees to the body side. They are fairly easy to build or maybe Ron Pope can plasma cut them on his magic machine. A folding chair could easily be stashed behind the seats. As for the front wheel drive...that would be a novel approach by loading the chair in the back much like a low slung fire truck. The motorcycle guys do that with trikes and side hacks all the time so why not a T roadster. Any questions or ideas you want to ask me or anyone here will be gladly answered. May not be the correct or popular answer but we'll try. Hope this helps you. I'll be in touch.

George

 

[Zandoz]

Have you considered a C cab truck? Not long ago Spirit did a C cab with extra long doors to accommodate a person with mobility issues. Email Bob and ask about that. Also Wintec has a longer bucket that will take the chair. Can you lift it over the side or make the whole side open up?

Actually, I've thought of doing a C cab quite a bit...or a box cab...or a mini depot hack. My fall back for this project is to cut the body I have off behind the cowl, and do some variation of those. I'd love to be in a position to afford a new Spirit body...or one of the shorty C cabs from ScottRods. With a wheelbase in the low 90s, there is not much chance for putting the chair inside the body. I'm planning a little 4 ft. trailer for towing my power chair, and a removable carrier for my manual chair.

 

[Zandoz]

Bill,

Your uncle Gene was right on the money with that chassis design. Closely resembles the Scarabs of '58, some of the mid '50s Ferrari's, the early Chaparrals and a number of other open cockpit style cars of the era. That truly is a unique car. As to your car....After reading all the input and seeing that you are going to run the 2x4 side rails and K member the frame I doubt you will have any torsional issues. I won't go into a lot tonight but seeing as how you need as much flat floor and surface area as possible I would keep it simple. There have been some suggestions on stretched bodies or T trucks and those would well be worth considering. You might also think about a stretched door that had hinges that would swing the door out and forward till it almost 90 degrees to the body side. They are fairly easy to build or maybe Ron Pope can plasma cut them on his magic machine. A folding chair could easily be stashed behind the seats. As for the front wheel drive...that would be a novel approach by loading the chair in the back much like a low slung fire truck. The motorcycle guys do that with trikes and side hacks all the time so why not a T roadster. Any questions or ideas you want to ask me or anyone here will be gladly answered. May not be the correct or popular answer but we'll try. Hope this helps you. I'll be in touch.

George

I've been pondering using some kind of re-purposed trunk hinges to get the door past 90 degrees...and/or a suicide door. The stretched body I have already has a couple of inches wider passenger door, but it's still narrow. If I end up having to do a driver's side door, I'd definitely extend the door past the raised door outline...probably 8" or so before I'd run into problems with the door

I've also been pondered using a Lambo style door hinge, and making the whole side of the body from cowl back swing straight up. All kinds of options pop into this empty head....LOL

 

[EX JUNK]

Check with Ron Pope, if I remember correctly he had a door on the driver side that extended almost to the rear of the body. I believe that he has since sold that car but I'm sure that he'll be glad to give you an idea on how to do it.

Jim

 

[Screaming Metal]

well, since this is 'Throw it on the table' designing session, you could have a door, as you say. because of its longer length, it will, be hard to open onto the sidewalk with people walking to and fro, , opening up toward the top, possibility of someone putting their face into it. Sorry, forget it, I was thinking DeLorean ..... The Lambo setup has to have a good frame to attach to. Alot of hinged weight there after its all said and done.
What about since we're talking doing the pass. side, if you had a dual latch drop down door, like a tailgate setup off a old pickup, slide in, before sliding all the way into Drivers set, have a pullstrap bolted to inside door frame, pull it up and closed and latch it.
OR....the Lambo thing COULD work if you had a strong, thick firewall structure to attach to. Like a frame to attach your steering, steering box to, like a 1 1/4" doublehoop frame. You could fasten your whole cowl and dash to it. I remember one of our members having such a setup. Ay, there are several ways
Anyway you want to do it, just be sure to make it strong enough to do the intended job. Too strong is preferable than not strong enough....Thats why some of us BHeads have Engineering Degrees....to help us build what we love....

 

[Screaming Metal]

If in the tailgate style door, you could attach hinges directly to the frame, but your door structure will have to be strong as not to distort pulling it up and latching it....probably 5/8s or 3/4s Sq tubing....glassed in. Ron has alot of good door framing ideas....

 

[Zandoz]

Check with Ron Pope, if I remember correctly he had a door on the driver side that extended almost to the rear of the body. I believe that he has since sold that car but I'm sure that he'll be glad to give you an idea on how to do it.

Jim

I'll be seeing Ron next weekend, if all goes as planned...that was one of the things I wanted to discuss.

 

[Zandoz]

well, since this is 'Throw it on the table' designing session, you could have a door, as you say. because of its longer length, it will, be hard to open onto the sidewalk with people walking to and fro, , opening up toward the top, possibility of someone putting their face into it. Sorry, forget it, I was thinking DeLorean ..... The Lambo setup has to have a good frame to attach to. Alot of hinged weight there after its all said and done.
What about since we're talking doing the pass. side, if you had a dual latch drop down door, like a tailgate setup off a old pickup, slide in, before sliding all the way into Drivers set, have a pullstrap bolted to inside door frame, pull it up and closed and latch it.
OR....the Lambo thing COULD work if you had a strong, thick firewall structure to attach to. Like a frame to attach your steering, steering box to, like a 1 1/4" doublehoop frame. You could fasten your whole cowl and dash to it. I remember one of our members having such a setup. Ay, there are several ways
Anyway you want to do it, just be sure to make it strong enough to do the intended job. Too strong is preferable than not strong enough....Thats why some of us BHeads have Engineering Degrees....to help us build what we love....

If in the tailgate style door, you could attach hinges directly to the frame, but your door structure will have to be strong as not to distort pulling it up and latching it....probably 5/8s or 3/4s Sq tubing....glassed in. Ron has alot of good door framing ideas....

I do not think a tailgate style door would work for me....when open it would be right where I need to step out.

The cowl/dash/firewall area, and the rear of the existing passenger side door opening, are going to be reinforced with extruded aluminum beam skeletons, using material like this...


On the Lambo idea, or with a simpler enlarged door, I was thinking the door opening starting right where a "normal" door starts, with the leading edge following the raised faux door outline. The simpler door would stop just short of hitting the tire when opened. A Lambo style door would wrap around to the side face of the kick-up. I would do a similar skeleton structure to reinforce for the rear of a Lambo door opening. I don't think either style door would be very heavy...the whole body does not weigh much more than 50 lbs. I'm viewing the doors as being cosmetic rather than structural. I plan on relying on well anchored belts to hold me in, and don't see them really being able to take any kind of impact, regardless of how I reinforce them.

When it's all said and done, I'll probably just go with the passenger door to start with, then follow up with what ever additional door configuration that looks easiest. No telling what slick idea(s) I or you good folks will come up with by then.

 

[Zandoz]

Check with Ron Pope, if I remember correctly he had a door on the driver side that extended almost to the rear of the body. I believe that he has since sold that car but I'm sure that he'll be glad to give you an idea on how to do it.

Jim

I'll be seeing Ron next weekend...that is one of the topics I hope to discuss with him.

 

[fluidfloyd]

had a strong, thick firewall structure to attach to. Like a frame to attach your steering, steering box to, like a 1 1/4" doublehoop frame.

That would certainly put a ton of torsional stiffness in the chassis. I have always thought you would want and need a steel structure to hang steering columns and maybe clutch/brake petals from. I really don't care for wood or fiberglass firewalls without some steel or maybe aluminum help under the cowling. And you are right in thinking about hanging a tilting body or just the doors. When running a drag link style steering that exits out the side of the cowl I think it would be mandatory to have something of substance to resist the steering box forces. Just my .02 cents worth.

George

 

[Zandoz]

I to am not comfortable with an unsupported fiberglass firewall and steering support. I'm planning on an 1/8" aluminum sheet on the engine side of the firewall, and the extruded aluminum support on the inside, tied to the dash and door opening leading edge skeleton.

 

[fluidfloyd]

I to am not comfortable with an unsupported fiberglass firewall and steering support. I'm planning on an 1/8" aluminum sheet on the engine side of the firewall, and the extruded aluminum support on the inside, tied to the dash and door opening leading edge skeleton.

Bill...Check your PM. I will be here about 1 hour.

George

 

[James C]

Could do a double door like on the extended cab trucks.