Ackerman question

[TDitty]

ok I have read a few posts on here and have even seen a diagram of how the Ackerman works. But I am not sure how this works or how to adjust this if you have put your drag link in front. if you use flat steering arms would this make a difference compared to curved ones. Can anyone explain how to adjust this with out getting to NASA on me. I do not know that is why I am asking.
Russ

 

[rcnurd]

ok I have read a few posts on here and have even seen a diagram of how the Ackerman works. But I am not sure how this works or how to adjust this if you have put your drag link in front. if you use flat steering arms would this make a difference compared to curved ones. Can anyone explain how to adjust this with out getting to NASA on me. I do not know that is why I am asking.
Russ

http://www.nationaltbucketalliance.com/tech_info/chassis/ackerman/Ackerman.asp


This was taken from the NTBA web site. I hope it makes it more clear for you. If the tie rod is BEHIND the front axle, then your ackerman would be easy to adjust. If the tie rod is in FRONT of the axle, then the steering arms will be almost tucked into the wheels. the tie rod ends have to fall in a straight line from the center of the rear axle to the center of the king pins.

rcnurd

 

[EX JUNK]

ok I have read a few posts on here and have even seen a diagram of how the Ackerman works. But I am not sure how this works or how to adjust this if you have put your drag link in front. if you use flat steering arms would this make a difference compared to curved ones. Can anyone explain how to adjust this with out getting to NASA on me. I do not know that is why I am asking.
Russ

"A picture is worth a thousand words." So check out the picture below of my set up. I made new steering arms that are similar to the conventional ones but they extend outward, away from the center of the car, rather than inward as in a rear mounted set up. Correct Ackerman allows you to extend a line from the center of the tie rod, through the center of the kingpin and it should meet at the center of the rear end.

Jim

 

[ellis8500]

If you are using a behind-the-axle tie rod, you can use spacers when mounting the steering arms to get the right ackerman setup. Large hex nuts make good spacers. Also, the ackerman setup does not have to be perfect, just close. So don't fret if it's off an 1/8th, 1/16th, or 1/32nd from perfect.

 

[Northstar T]

ok I have read a few posts on here and have even seen a diagram of how the Ackerman works. But I am not sure how this works or how to adjust this if you have put your drag link in front. if you use flat steering arms would this make a difference compared to curved ones. Can anyone explain how to adjust this with out getting to NASA on me. I do not know that is why I am asking.
Russ

The word "adjust" means different things to different people. in the case of Ackerman angle, the "adjustment" is done with a torch. the steering arms need to be heated to a light red color and the arms bent to gain the proper angle. it's also very important to cool the parts very slowly. these are critical parts here, and not ones you want to take a chance on weakening in any way. do it right or have it done right. I would personally never recomend using spacers, as your bolts end up at weird angles and don't set square any more.

happy cornering,
(the other) Russ

 

[TDitty]

ok first thanks everyone for the explainations, pic, and diagram. I think I have this now correct me if I am wrong from the center of the axle housing there is an imaginary angle that is in the shape of a v at the points where the draglink hiems or balljoints intersect this line. Now as the angle widens moving forward of the draglinks to the front of the axle the draglink hiems or balls need to be readjusted to stay in the Imaginary line if moved to the front of the axle.
Russ

 

[ellis8500]

I am using equal length spacers on each bolt so that they do sit square. When one reads about Ackerman angles and setups, a common thread in the articles is that it does not have to be exact in order to be effective. Ackerman developed his theory during the days of horse drawn wagons. Automobiles did not exist yet. Wooden wheels do not flex as do rubber tires. Because of this flex during cornering, the real dynamic ackerman is just about always different than the static values. So getting it close is usually good enough for street driving. Many of us use flat, thick metal steering arms that cannot be heated and bent with any precision. Hence, the use of spacers.

 

[Ted Brown]

I happen to like and use my own weld on arms, this way when finished, there should be no need for further adjustments if welded in the correct position... Very clean prepared parts with fully chamfered edges on the arms at the spindle end for a full weld is necessary for a strong connection (with 3/8" material as a minimum thickness, 1/2" is even better)... When using spacers to adjust bolt on arms, the tabs at the spacer point should be heated to now fit the new angle... Steering is the heart of your T, so always be very careful and have a PRO do the welding... IMHO

 

[Lee_in_KC]

 

[Ted Brown]

Lee's post shows just where the ends are to be located in either case, but why use your tie rod as a bumper? when it can be behind where it belongs and out of harms way... Just me here

 

[TDitty]

does anyone have a pic with the spacers and such in place.
also KC that is exactly what I was thinking thanks for the diagram

 

[TDitty]

Ted,
This is more for knowledge about this for me. As you know we plan to do things one way and then as we build sometimes we have to change the original plan. So just in case I end up having to go this route I want to build the best car I can.
Russ

 

[ellis8500]

For a behind the axle tie rod, one can estimate the proper ackerman tie rod length as follows: measure the distance of the tie rod axis to the axle axis when wheels or pointed straight ahead. Call this value X. Measure the distance between the center of each kingpin axis. Call this value F. Measure your wheelbase and call it value W. Estimated tie rod length center-to-center of end fittings is:

Length = (W - X) x (F / W)

Example: W = 123", F = 48", X = 6" L = (123-6)x(48/123) = 45.658". Which is about 45-21/32" or 45-5/8"

For front mounted tie rod, equation is L = (X + W) x (F / W)

Hope this helps some of you guys who are in the process of determining a good value.

 

[TDitty]

thanks Mr. Bill that is a helpful formula to see and jot down in my t bucket archive.

 

[butch27]

Ted: I've preached that for years and those friction shocks. IMO

 

[Ted Brown]

This is a question for those who have put or are putting the tie rod out front, Why? as I have never had to ever put one out front, because of any reason, brakes can be moved to the front side if they are in the way at all, I can't think of any other good reason... I would like to read your answers, besides being to lazy to mount it correctly??? Just me here...

 

[Rick]

This is a question for those who have put or are putting the tie rod out front, Why? as I have never had to ever put one out front, because of any reason, brakes can be moved to the front side if they are in the way at all, I can't think of any other good reason... I would like to read your answers, besides being to lazy to mount it correctly??? Just me here...

I bought my lower steering arms(they are dropped arms) 10 years ago for the 6"drop axel i had and when i got rid of that bucket to build this one i kept the arms.I now have a 4" drop on the yellow car and the arms are to long to fit between the radius rods but i have them and they stayed in front.Besides it looks good out there.(Thats my story and i'm sticking to it)

 

[RPM]

I bought my lower steering arms(they are dropped arms) 10 years ago for the 6"drop axel i had and when i got rid of that bucket to build this one i kept the arms.I now have a 4" drop on the yellow car and the arms are to long to fit between the radius rods but i have them and they stayed in front.Besides it looks good out there.(Thats my story and i'm sticking to it)

Rick I agree, I think they look good out in front. Ackerman plays no part in going straight and fast. If we wanted cars that handled good in curves we would have built a Ferrari or some such thing as that. It is your car build it the way you want it.

 

[Northstar T]

100% looks for me as well. I like it, and that's the only reason I need. My Ackerman is proper and it steers exceptionaly well thank you.

Russ

 

[butch27]

OK- Now back to our regular programming folks. LOL