Buggy springs

[fletcherson]

I have seen various ideas about how to figure weight ratings on springs and about different materials between the leafs. My T has buggy type springs front and rear. Neither have any anti friction pads. I plan to initially re use them, I may go to coil over on the rear, but as an upgrade. The front will most likely be permanent. I will remove a leaf or shorten or whatever to make them deflect to hopefully provide a decent ride and they obviously must be lubricated in some way to have a chance of functioning. Anyways, my post is looking for opinions on what you think is the best material to use for spring pads between the leafs. They are radiused and chrome, so I would prefer to use a non friction type material instead of grease, but I want them to function as well as possible. Also how many leafs are you guys running? I am also planning to add pan hard bars, front and rear, not that it should matter to this subject, just a point. Another thing I have pondered, my car has the buggy spring on the rear and coil over shocks, which is overkill. I presume it was due to wheel stands, etc as the car was primarily a drag car, but do the buggy springs on the front and rear provide lateral stability as far as maintaining a level stance side to side? What's your thoughts? If they are problematic and will require attention, I would prefer to plan it sooner than later while the car is in re design mode. Keep in mind that I am trying to keep it as close to its original form as I can for nostalgic purposes, but it must be safe, functional, and pleasurable to drive or what's the point? I am going to remove the old coil over shocks on the rear no matter what I end up doing long term. I planned on initially retaining the buggy spring and replacing the coil overs with shocks, but I have considered putting modern coil overs on it and either retaining the main buggy spring for differential positioning, or just removing them entirely and relying on the pan hard bar for position. It has lift bars and radial arms as well.

 

[Zandoz]

On mine, the front spring is going to be a mono-leaf...at least in part to eliminate the issues you are questioning I know mono-leafs tend to be controversial, but I'm not going to try changing anyone's mind.

Without seeing pics of your rear set-up, a question comes to mind...Are those shocks with coils true coil-overs, or are they load booster shocks? I've seen load boosters with leafs, but not true coilovers with leafs. Either combination seems to be overkill. The second question that comes to mind is are the shock brackets heavy enough to support using true coil-overs without the leafs?

If the bracketry is sufficient, I'd go with appropriately sized coilovers. Since you are going for a nostalgic look, the leafs with good conventional shocks would be a good second choice.

I'm going with a 3rd non-nostalgic set-up...air bags. A large part of the reason for that choice in my case is due to my mobility issues, and getting in and out of the car. Otherwise, ride and adjustability are the big pluses.

 

[Hackerbilt]

I'm running a chrome transverse leaf up front and no friction pads, with coilovers out back.
On my car (110" wheelbase) the front axle is so far ahead that it has little effect on the ride, but it does move around fine and I see no need to change it in any way.
Considering how far back you sit in a T bucket I doubt any T suffers much from a too stiff front spring!
Out back is where the ride is!
My car has coilovers that are a bit stiff for the weight.
It rides...ok...with two people, but thats as much as I'll give it.
I'm gonna play with shock angle in the next month or two, to see if that alone will soften the ride a little.
Any little bit will help and I have one inboard hole in the upper bracket to play with, plus the lower mount needs redesigning to a pin bolt anyway, so I can make that adjustable as well.
Right now the bottom uses a double shear style mount with no possible adjustment at all.

If I don't see much improvement I will go with lighter springs.

Edit: I meant to say that given the choice I would run a transverse leaf out back, and actually intended to, but the conversion would have required too many changes and created some styling issues I chose to avoid.
I did run a Model A crossmember anyway, just several inches back, to give it a bit more old school effect. I tucked my plate under it and the ID light inside it.

I feel the transverse leaf could easily be played with to get a good ride and if somehow the car tended to lean, it could be preloaded with a small shim etc.
It's a very simple suspension...

 

[fletcherson]

Thanks for your replies, I didn't get a notice of reply, just happened to notice in the process of looking for a past conversation, or I would have replied sooner. The coil over shocks are not what we call true coilovers today, they are chrome and resemble a motorcycle or what I used to call overload shocks, but they are sort of adjustable, like a motorcycle. They are overkill for sure, with the transverse spring, it can't ride well, it's too stiff.

I since found some spring liner that I think I will use when I re assemble the car for the hopefully final time. I gave it a very good inspection, and all of the components look to be in very good condition with minimal wear, so I plan to re use the setup. It has transverse front and rears, the fronts are 1-3/4" the rears are 2-1/4" wide. Someone has removed one of the six rear springs, I am going to get those spring over shocks off of it and see if it seems to deflect, if not, I am going to remove another. I want it to absorb the road. I don't worry about wheel hop or the like so much with the lift bars. It should transfer ok. I only drove it once, and couldn't get any feel for it. I feel much better about the springs after doing some more research. I think they will do well with the panhard bar and some good adjustable shocks. Mine is only 100" and the bbc ought to be heavy enough to make the front springs function. The front shocks are angled fairly severely, more that 30 deg, I'd say... I suppose they look worse than they actually are considering the angle of the axle pivot, but I question if they will help or hinder... Any thoughts on front shock angle?

 

[2old2fast]

By angling the shocks you decrease the motion ,since most of these cars only move up/down 1/2 to 3/4 inch. , it's reasonable to expect less dampening w/ less movement.
try to get them as vertical as possible .
dave

 

[fletcherson]

That's going to be another redesign, lol.. I like the chrome, but it sure complicates modifications... They have a shock mount on the axle, outside of the radius mounts, and the upper mounts/headlight brackets are fairly narrow with the frame. I will see what's available as far as clamp on lower or wider upper mounts. I have seen some that use the spring mounts as lower shock mounts, that may be the ticket. More fun! The thing is, I want the car to drive and handle good, and it has to ride decent in the rear, my old busted back won't take a chuck wagon ride, lol...perhaps a air ride or suspension seating? Lol...

 

[Zandoz]

The thing is, I want the car to drive and handle good, and it has to ride decent in the rear, my old busted back won't take a chuck wagon ride, lol...perhaps a air ride or suspension seating? Lol...

I'm in a similar boat. DJD has me feeling any abrupt jostling when I'm riding or driving, so I'm going with air ride in the rear. At least initially I'm keeping it simple...no automation...just schrader valves. Since I'm building from scratch and would need to purchase bracketry regardless of suspension type, with a bit of bargain shopping the cost of going simple air ride is similar to going with good coil-overs.

 

[PotvinGuy]

Wonder if a pair of Hijackers would be OK for a bucket? Or maybe 2 on each side.

 

[fletcherson]

Wonder if a pair of Hijackers would be OK for a bucket? Or maybe 2 on each side.

I actually thought about softening the rear spring way up by removing leafs, and doing just that. It makes sense, there isn't much weight, and you could compensate for a passenger or not, soften it up to cruise, stiffen it up to raise Cain...an added benefit would be stiffening it up a bit to reduce or control body roll on cornering, sort of spreading the total theoretical spring out and applying it directly to the wheel as the shocks are angled from the frame to the end of the housing, it may be worth a try? I will try using the transverse springs and adjustable shocks first, I think, for the simple fact that every air bag or shock I have ever had was a pain in the ass due to losing air, etc... I like them, and they do work, but a added hassle. I suppose a air compressor and control module would rectify the issue. I am not sure where I would put it on my bob tail, there may be room under the seat by the battery. I do know there are some decent options available on Lincoln and caddi, likely better quality than aftermarket and should be a scrap yard find??? Zandoz, I have a fusion, degeneration, bulging discs, etc... My Mri report that should be about a page and a half long for a normal spine is about seven pages due to all of the comments, etc...I feel you. I don't let it stop me, but it damned sure slows me down, and I definitely feel it. I refuse to sit on my ass and feel sorry for myself, but it does sometimes happen, it's just the nature of it, a real curse! I'm going out with my boots on! It does make one think things through a bit. Good luck with your design!

 

[Zandoz]

I actually thought about softening the rear spring way up by removing leafs, and doing just that. It makes sense, there isn't much weight, and you could compensate for a passenger or not, soften it up to cruise, stiffen it up to raise Cain...an added benefit would be stiffening it up a bit to reduce or control body roll on cornering, sort of spreading the total theoretical spring out and applying it directly to the wheel as the shocks are angled from the frame to the end of the housing, it may be worth a try? I will try using the transverse springs and adjustable shocks first, I think, for the simple fact that every air bag or shock I have ever had was a pain in the ass due to losing air, etc... I like them, and they do work, but a added hassle. I suppose a air compressor and control module would rectify the issue. I am not sure where I would put it on my bob tail, there may be room under the seat by the battery. I do know there are some decent options available on Lincoln and caddi, likely better quality than aftermarket and should be a scrap yard find??? Zandoz, I have a fusion, degeneration, bulging discs, etc... My Mri report that should be about a page and a half long for a normal spine is about seven pages due to all of the comments, etc...I feel you. I don't let it stop me, but it damned sure slows me down, and I definitely feel it. I refuse to sit on my ass and feel sorry for myself, but it does sometimes happen, it's just the nature of it, a real curse! I'm going out with my boots on! It does make one think things through a bit. Good luck with your design!

My build is going to be an extreme bobtail configuration...the body set back to the point that the top rear of the body is directly above the rear axle centerline.

I don't know what to think of the hijacker idea. Before going that route I'd contact Gabriel and see what they say. Also I don't have a handle on how adaptable the Lincoln/Caddy/etc bags are. I do know they are pricey...one for our Buick cost over a grand to replace.

From what I gather, the air loss problem is/was more of a problem with early bag design, cheap bags, or damaged bags. I'm planning on using Slam Specialties SS-6...because of their rep and their built in bump stops to prevent damage. I won't be adding the compressor and tank(s) until I get to the point of needing the car to lower so I can get in. One of the reasons I hope to go with 4" frame rails, is to eventually allow saddle air tanks inboard of the rails. At the current state of compressor art I see no problem fitting behind or under the seat.

Sorry to hear you have similar issues...I'd not wish them on an enemy. Thanks for your good luck wish, and I'm wishing you the same.

In addition to the DJD, I have a bone spur inside a neck vertebrae that pinches my spinal cord. A few years back I was to the point that the only movement I was capable of was turning my head about a quarter turn. A one time only operation and a lot of therapy got me somewhat functional again. Unfortunately over the last 6 months some of the early spinal cord pinch symptoms have returned...complicated by pulmonary and cardiac issues. Going into this project we knew I'd be getting worse before it was finished, and worked out some ideas on how to compensate. What wasn't planned on was getting this worse this soon. The next step is getting my frame built and bracket welding done...probably the most expensive part of the whole project. The idea of spending that kind of money when not being able to finish is quickly heading from a possibility to a certainty, bothers me. My wife is encouraging me to go for it, but to be honest I've been procrastinating. <end self pity rant>

 

[fletcherson]

If you don't do it now, when? I have put off too many things for too long, always putting my wife, kids, work first. Now it's a debate whether the pleasure is worth the pain of doing it. I am trying to do the things I like before the whole damned thing ends! If it puts a smile on your face, it's worth it! Hope you get through it!

I have had the same air loss issue with air shocks from back in the day, and expensive top of the line air bags for my trucks recently. I don't believe there are any that don't do it to some extent with temperature and humidity fluxuations, etc... I actually elected to buy and install overload springs on my dump rather than use the air bags I already have for that very reason. Now, an active system with a compressor would likely be ok because it can adjust. The air systems I was talking about on the production cars was a thought for a possible low cost source for the compressor and controller from the salvage yard. I wouldn't try to use the bags, but they may be an idea? My in-laws had a caddi that got wrecked, then got a Lincoln. Both had air assist ride. The caddi rode supreme by far, the Lincoln always leaked down, but returned to the correct ride hight when started. I thought one of those air systems in conjunction with air shocks would be a low cost alternative for the bucket. I wouldn't use the air shocks as a air bag, they would supliment the transverse buggy spring, after it was de-leafed to soften it, in theory....you know how it goes when designing these things, you come up with all kinds of stuff...lol!

 

[Zandoz]

If you don't do it now, when? I have put off too many things for too long, always putting my wife, kids, work first. Now it's a debate whether the pleasure is worth the pain of doing it. I am trying to do the things I like before the whole damned thing ends! If it puts a smile on your face, it's worth it! Hope you get through it!

I know this is my last shot...that was the mindset for starting this project. I was car nut from the time I knew what a car was. 36 years ago, the night before I started my first job after college, my dad told me that the time for playing with the car stuff was over, and it was time to concentrate on work. I did as he advised. Now it's my biggest regret. Now I realize that being a good workaholic got me no meaningful returns, and I missed out on 35 years of those smiles you mention by not putting as much emphasis on my happiness as I did work. My wife will always be priority one, but this project is now number two. With the way the last few months have gone, I'm just afraid that the time is already past, and I'm in denial <shrug>

I have had the same air loss issue with air shocks from back in the day, and expensive top of the line air bags for my trucks recently. I don't believe there are any that don't do it to some extent with temperature and humidity fluxuations, etc... I actually elected to buy and install overload springs on my dump rather than use the air bags I already have for that very reason. Now, an active system with a compressor would likely be ok because it can adjust. The air systems I was talking about on the production cars was a thought for a possible low cost source for the compressor and controller from the salvage yard. I wouldn't try to use the bags, but they may be an idea? My in-laws had a caddi that got wrecked, then got a Lincoln. Both had air assist ride. The caddi rode supreme by far, the Lincoln always leaked down, but returned to the correct ride hight when started. I thought one of those air systems in conjunction with air shocks would be a low cost alternative for the bucket. I wouldn't use the air shocks as a air bag, they would supliment the transverse buggy spring, after it was de-leafed to soften it, in theory....you know how it goes when designing these things, you come up with all kinds of stuff...lol!

I like the idea of using a salvage yard compressor! I doubt that I'd use the associated self leveling electronics...to me, keeping this simple is more important than not having to push a button when needed. Your impression of the Lincoln air ride is spot on. My mechanic friend steered me away from getting a Mark VIII because of nearly inevitable expensive air ride issues. I see no problem using the air shocks as you indicate. It will definitely give you adjustability...but I don't know about improved ride. I don't remember noticing any ride improvement going from conventional to air shocks with factory springs...but I never tried removing leaves. If my current suspension brainstorm doesn't pan out, I may give it a try

 

[old round fart]

Has anybody tried to use airbags to control a lever arm tied to a coil over shock? That way you could dial in the ride you want and when you want it to squat down it would.

 

[Hackerbilt]

Has anybody tried to use airbags to control a lever arm tied to a coil over shock? That way you could dial in the ride you want and when you want it to squat down it would.

I think in that case you would need to go with hydraulics.
The compressability of the bags would give you two springs to sort out per side and also you would need shock absorbers on the arms as well!

 

[Zandoz]

Has anybody tried to use airbags to control a lever arm tied to a coil over shock? That way you could dial in the ride you want and when you want it to squat down it would.

I'm probably missing something, but I'm not seeing what advantage that configuration would have over a correctly configured air bag alone set up.

 

[fletcherson]

I know this is my last shot...that was the mindset for starting this project. I was car nut from the time I knew what a car was. 36 years ago, the night before I started my first job after college, my dad told me that the time for playing with the car stuff was over, and it was time to concentrate on work. I did as he advised. Now it's my biggest regret. Now I realize that being a good workaholic got me no meaningful returns, and I missed out on 35 years of those smiles you mention by not putting as much emphasis on my happiness as I did work. My wife will always be priority one, but this project is now number two. With the way the last few months have gone, I'm just afraid that the time is already past, and I'm in denial <shrug>



I like the idea of using a salvage yard compressor! I doubt that I'd use the associated self leveling electronics...to me, keeping this simple is more important than not having to push a button when needed. Your impression of the Lincoln air ride is spot on. My mechanic friend steered me away from getting a Mark VIII because of nearly inevitable expensive air ride issues. I see no problem using the air shocks as you indicate. It will definitely give you adjustability...but I don't know about improved ride. I don't remember noticing any ride improvement going from conventional to air shocks with factory springs...but I never tried removing leaves. If my current suspension brainstorm doesn't pan out, I may give it a try

Your dad likely saved you a bunch of wasted time and money, looking out for your future. It's hard to retro judge intent... At least he was there, and cared enough to give advice... Everyone has regrets, truth be told... I like your idea of using the frame rail for an air tank! I had a truck we built a rear bumper for that doubled as a tank, it worked well! You could actually plan ahead and integrate baffles, to allow seperate compartments for each bag to allow precise control, or to have a backup. I also like the internal bump stop idea! That's an issue sometimes on a lowered vehicle to work them in without getting in the way. I found some that are basically spacers to put on the shock rod. I am not sure how well the shock will like that, but a simple install. Too bad you aren't local, I would help you weld up your frame. I bet there is someone close by with similar interest who would enjoy some company and help you out. Perhaps you could offer some planning, design, cad work or the like in exchange for some welding? I know its hard to make new friends when injured, and older... And I bet you, like me, hate to accept or ask for help. Looking back, some of the best times of my life were had working on junk with friends.... Have you thought about checking out the local vocational or auto training or welding schools to see if they will take on a project? Sometimes, they will take in cool outside projects, so I have been told. If you plan on going full air ride, I would integrate as much of the plumbing, bracketry, etc as possible now to avoid re doing or having to disassemble later... Adding the compressor and controls wouldn't be too bad later. Jmo, but if you could come up with a compressor sooner than later would be my choice. Keep your head in your dream! When I got hurt, and was paralized, and stuck in a wheel chair, (I sure don't miss that damned thing) one of the things that helped me retain any sanity and made me fight through was a project I had half done in the garage. Looking back, it wasn't that special, but it was invaluable to my recovery... Just a thought.

 

[Zandoz]

Your dad likely saved you a bunch of wasted time and money, looking out for your future. It's hard to retro judge intent... At least he was there, and cared enough to give advice... Everyone has regrets, truth be told... I like your idea of using the frame rail for an air tank! I had a truck we built a rear bumper for that doubled as a tank, it worked well! You could actually plan ahead and integrate baffles, to allow seperate compartments for each bag to allow precise control, or to have a backup. I also like the internal bump stop idea! That's an issue sometimes on a lowered vehicle to work them in without getting in the way. I found some that are basically spacers to put on the shock rod. I am not sure how well the shock will like that, but a simple install. Too bad you aren't local, I would help you weld up your frame. I bet there is someone close by with similar interest who would enjoy some company and help you out. Perhaps you could offer some planning, design, cad work or the like in exchange for some welding? I know its hard to make new friends when injured, and older... And I bet you, like me, hate to accept or ask for help. Looking back, some of the best times of my life were had working on junk with friends.... Have you thought about checking out the local vocational or auto training or welding schools to see if they will take on a project? Sometimes, they will take in cool outside projects, so I have been told. If you plan on going full air ride, I would integrate as much of the plumbing, bracketry, etc as possible now to avoid re doing or having to disassemble later... Adding the compressor and controls wouldn't be too bad later. Jmo, but if you could come up with a compressor sooner than later would be my choice. Keep your head in your dream! When I got hurt, and was paralized, and stuck in a wheel chair, (I sure don't miss that damned thing) one of the things that helped me retain any sanity and made me fight through was a project I had half done in the garage. Looking back, it wasn't that special, but it was invaluable to my recovery... Just a thought.

I know his intent was good, but it cost me 35 years of doing the things that really made me happy.

Actually, I wasn't talking about using the frame rails as tanks, though that would be a cool idea if I had the fabrication ability or budget. What I was talking about was making the frame rails tall enough to hide 4" diameter tanks behind...one on each side.

There is a local shop that I'm hoping to have do my frame...but I've been procrastinating contacting them. Partially because of the health issues, and partially because I'm afraid of getting shot down again.

I'm afraid that once again I've seriously hijacked a thread, so I'll bow out until I have something on topic to contribute.

Thanks.

 

[fletcherson]

I know his intent was good, but it cost me 35 years of doing the things that really made me happy.

Actually, I wasn't talking about using the frame rails as tanks, though that would be a cool idea if I had the fabrication ability or budget. What I was talking about was making the frame rails tall enough to hide 4" diameter tanks behind...one on each side.

There is a local shop that I'm hoping to have do my frame...but I've been procrastinating contacting them. Partially because of the health issues, and partially because I'm afraid of getting shot down again.

I'm afraid that once again I've seriously hijacked a thread, so I'll bow out until I have something on topic to contribute.

Thanks.

All is good! I got some insight and answered some questions in the process of shopping... It's the soap opera for grease monkeys, grease opera, lol.