Ron Pope Motorsports                California Custom Roadsters               

Cruising the Coast and general happenings

fordsbyjay

Active Member
We did our usual fall trip from Lafayette up to Bowling Green, Ky for the NMRA World Finals then down to Biloxi for Cruising the Coast. While passing through Tn we spent the night at a friends house and headed up to Lynchburg Tn for the day (the home of Jack Daniels). The drive was nice and the weather was great. After Cruising the Coast is a week long event and we always roll in Sunday night. After registering Monday morning there is cruise ins all week long along the Gulf Coast. The weather was great and we were having our usual great time till Tuesday night. We were coming back from Ocean Springs when the bucket died on us. It was popping and banging like the plugs were fouled so I called a wrecker. The next morning I changed the fouled plugs and still couldn't get it fired up. After a couple hours of trouble shooting I figured out the distributor gear had chewed all the teeth off of the cam gear. Needless to say that was the end of our T-bucket cruising . We finished out the week in the F350 and still enjoyed the week. A nice conciliation prize was we won $500 in a draw so that covered the new cam and gaskets.

Below is just a bunch of pics of all the fun times..

At Jack Daniels distillery.
IMG_0224.jpg


In Lynchburg. On the other side of the pumps is an original C cab delivery.
IMG_0221.jpg


Chilling out in Bowling Green at the NMRA World Finals. We took two plaques in the car show for top 20 and best pre 48. There was around 300 cars so that was nice.
IMG_0227.jpg


Monday morning in Biloxi.
IMG_0240.jpg


Cruising the beach.
IMG_0248.jpg


Carnage.
distributor.jpg

camgear.jpg


Tore down for repairs.
IMG_0307.jpg


Just messing around.
IMG_0346.jpg


I've been working out of town but I just got back home tonight. Hopefully tomorrow we will be back up and running again.
 
Sorry to hear. I have heard these stories on steel gear distributors on non hardened cam gears. Seems you had a distributor for a roller cam and you have a flat tappet cam right?
:cry:
A buddy of mine ate his cam in 1500 miles
 
It is a hydraulic roller from comp cams. The cam is a cast unit but the gear on the distributor was clearly to hard. I put a Comp composite gear back in and we will see how that works. There is three different cam types and a 1/2 dozen different types of distributor gear types then when you cross brand it just leaves too much room for error IMHO.
 
Darn: I just had in the shop truck- a nylon? dist. gear chewed up by the Cam gear. Go figure? I put a new dist. with steel gear in. It's a Astro 4.3. Hope it doesn't eat the cam gear now.
 
Ford and Chev engines are different. Chevys should use ductile iron on flat tappet cams and steel slightly softer than ductile iron for roller cams. Fords on the hand are different.
 
Thanks Mike.

When you get into aftermarket cams Comp Cams makes three different cams. Cast, billet and austempred. You need to have the correct gear for the correct camshaft which is really a PITA. I really have no idea why they don't just make one style? Probably cost or something.
 
I remember a few years many many compcam flat tappet cams were having all kinds of problems going flat during breaking in. I can't remember for sure but it seems it was attributed to soft cores and the lack of zinc in the oil these days. Maybe someone can elaborate more. CRS
 
They still are. I would be afraid to buy a flat tappet cam now a days. On the big block Ford site I frequent they were failing left and right. Pretty scary.
 
Man that's too bad about the cam and distributor gear. Ungh. Makes my head hurt. Got a Comp cam sitting in the block right now. Taken me 10 years to get to the point in my T build where I'm within weeks of having a complete engine sitting on the stand. Gonna have to contact Comp and see if they can tell me if my cam is the cast or ductile iron. Spent almost 3 hours tonight researching cam/gear problems on the net. Found a video where Comp shows you how to tell what material your cam is made out of. Sorry, but I'm not about to disassemble the lower end just so I can bang on it with an allen wrench and listen to the "ring" it makes. Really makes me wonder if I should go with another cam manufacturer. Have an issue with the cam timing gear, pin and fuel pump eccentric, so I'm waiting for an answer there. It's no wonder everybody's putting a Chevy motor in everything. Sorry about the rant, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I work in the parts department at a Ford dealer, so I suppose I should be used to the odd way Blue Oval stuff is designed and put together. I mean, I want a Ford drivetrain in my T, so I should take the licks and lashings, LOL, but come on. Guess the big block Mopar stuff has spoiled me. Wow. Now that's saying something.

Thought I wanted an MSD setup, but been hearing about problems with those, so I was looking at the Mallory with the flat cap (future blower application), but then you come back around to the cam gear problem and available distributor gear material and sizing. Like I said, "Ungh."

FordsbyJay, T looks great!
 
Well they used to be all the same till they started making roller cams. The factory ones are billet I believe and I am sure all the retrofit aftermarket units are what started all the changes. The Ford units don't seem to have any problems that I have ever heard of. If you have your cam card Comp can look the cam up using the serial number and tell you what it is made of. If you are unsure the bronze or composite gears are compatible with all cams.
 
I should mention that I got it running today with the new cam and it is a beast now. I can't keep the car straight because it keeps blowing the tires off and fishtailing all over. It is almost the same lift and duration but the cam profile is different and it made a world of difference. lol
 
I found out about the composite gears tonight, but I'd prefer to have this thing stay together for a looong time. Not 100% sold on the long term life of the composite gear. Visions of the old stock nylon covered timing gears of days gone by with plastic bits ending up in the oil pan don't excite me.
 
Well I have used a bronze one in my 5.0l for years. The composite one is new so I thought I would try it. If it wears it will be easy to fix.
 
Seems pricey too, but if it works, then I guess it'd be worth it. It'll be interesting to see how long it lasts for you.
 
Here are a couple of points on some of this -

1. A distributor gear is, by design, sacrificial. Yes, a composite gear will cost you a Franklin, whereas a nickel/bronze gear is under 1/2 that. And if you're running a Chevy, you can get a bronze gear that's a lot cheaper yet. A new distributor gear and a new cam will spend some time getting cozy with one another, which will result in the first bronze gear going away pretty quickly. You can install a second gear and find it will last forever and a day. But remember the simple fact even a composite distributor gear is a lot less money than a new camshaft.

When you assemble your engine, did you take the time to ensure proper engagement between the cam gear and the distributor gear? Suddenly, a lot of people have that deer in the headlights stare, because they never thought about it. Want to hear a secret? In nine out ten cases, you will find a 0.006" oversize gear will work better than the standard gear. But you won't know until you check. The last part you add to your new engine build should be the rear cam plug, after you lift the motor off the stand. Leave that plug out, so you can see how those gears are meshing. If you've cut the deck of the block and the deck surfaces of the heads, how do you know you don't need to shim the distributor up a few thousandths, unless you check?

2. I've heard all the old wives' tales about how Comp's cams had lobe issues. I've heard all the old wives' tales about how Comp's roller lifters were junk. Let the old wives say what they will, because when you start listening to what someone, with no means to actually test a failed component, is complaining about, you're spinning your wheels. We sold and used Comp Cams products, for decades, with zero problems.

When you're breaking in a new, flat tappet cam, do it the right way. The odds are that you've opted for a profile that caused the cam manufacturer to recommend a valve spring with more load. If it's a true, dual spring (with two round coils, not a round coil and a flat-wound, or ribbon coil), do your cam a favor. Get all of your installed heights set up (you are checking that, aren't you?) and then install just the outer coil. Leave the inner coils in the box, for the time being. Use a quality assembly lube on the cam lobes and on the face of the lifters. Prime the oiling system, so everything will be seeing oil as soon as the motor lights off. When you install the distributor, get it right, so you're not wasting a lot of time rolling the engine over with the starter. If you don't have an electric fuel pump, take the time to prime the carb with fuel. You want the engine to light off, as quickly as possible, so you're not losing the benefit of all your assembly lube. Get the motor up to 2,000 - 2,500 RPM and let it run there for 15-20 minutes, which means you want to be sure you have the cooling system ready and mufflers to keep the neighbors happy. Keep someone in the car with instructions to keep a weather eye on oil pressure and water temperature.

After this period of time, the lobes and lifter faces are lapped to one another. Now, you can get back in there, knock the spings off the heads and replacing the inner coils. Give the spings a good coat of oil, before you put the valve covers back on.

I once had a very well-known and well-respected engine builder call me, screaming about how our springs were junk, as he had broken 6 of them on just one dyno pull. I won't say we never had springs fail, but when 6 break in a single dyno pull, I knew the problem was not with the springs. When I finally got him back out of the ozone layer, I learned all 6 failures were on the intake side. Imagine that, the side with the most lift was breaking springs. When I managed to convince him to give me his installed height numbers and his valve lift figures, I grabbed a caluculator and did the math to see he had a grand total of 0.014" coil bind clearance. He threw a fit at me, because he knew he had more clearance than that. It's not rocket-science. Installed height, minus valve lift, minus solid height of the spring equals clearance. But this well-known and well-respected engine builder had never actually calculated clearance in that manner. :rolleyes: See where the old wives' tales come from? He couldn't sort how to set spring heights on a set of heads, so that meant our springs are junk. If ever you feel the need to run a mountain motor in a drag car, give me a ring and I'll tell you what engine builder you should avoid.

And the next time you hear one of those old wives griping about their soft cam, smile inside and go find yourself a better-educated conversation.

The Comp roller lifters problems were all a result of people "knowing" more than the people who ground their cam. Comp developed some really great profiles, but ramp speeds and lifter velocities were a lot higher than anything they had offered before. And Comp was warning people they needed springs that would give them 300 lbs. of seat load and well over 800 lbs. open load. Everyone "knew" :rolleyes: higher spring loads would eat horsepower :rofl:, so they ignored the recommendations. At high RPM, the lifters were lofting over the nose of the cam lobes and crashing down into the deceleration ramps, which was pulverizing the needles in the rollers. But the lifters were failing, so those lifters just had to be junk. The old wives wanted everyone to believe higher spring loads were wasting horsepressure, as the cam had to roll up against all that additional load. Errrr, excuse me, but what about those four valves that are closing and taking all that additional load to help keep the cam moving? Before we finally gave up on the "trick-of-the-week, gimme-gimme-gimme" racers, we had springs that were well in excess of 400 lbs. of seat load and 1100 lbs. of open load. And we never saw a single motor ever back up on numbers, simply because we had put a stouter spring on.

3. Cast iron camshafts don't cost a lot to make. And work fine in most applications. But when you want to use a roller lifter with a steel wheel against a cast iron core, the cam will fail. You can take a cast iron core and austemper it, which will provide a bit more life. But, at the end of the day, it is still a cast iron core, which cost a lot more money, because of the additional heat-treating. If you want to run a roller lifter, you really want to use a billet steel cam core. But you're going to spend some extra dollars for the steel core.

I spent 37 years in that market and I've heard almost all the stories there are to tell. And when I hear an "expert" telling people how this "junk" product failed in his engine and how that "junk" product failed in his engine, I realize I'm listening to someone who really doesn't have a clue. As Jay discovered, parts do fail. It happens. Jay accepted that fact, bought fresh pieces and got things running again. (And it sounds like it's running quite well!) Props to Jay on his new monster motor!

The next time you hear someone complaining about how a particular cam manufacturer has junk cams, simply because he managed to kill one camshaft in his entire life, bear in mind this individual is never going to tell you about all the mistakes he's made. :winkn:
 
I should mention that I got it running today with the new cam and it is a beast now. I can't keep the car straight because it keeps blowing the tires off and fishtailing all over. It is almost the same lift and duration but the cam profile is different and it made a world of difference. lol

Do you want to divulge the before and after cam numbers. There is nothing as good as a personal reference to help make a choice.

thanks,
 
The original cam was 224@ 0.050 and 0.574" lift on the intake and 230 @ 0.050 with 0.569 lift on the exhaust.

The new cam is 230 @ 0.050 and 0.576" lift on the intake and 236 @ 0.050 with 0.571" lift on the exhaust.

The biggest change was the lobe profile though. My guy said the lobe "starts today and ends tomorrow" . lol He expected a huge difference in the mid range and I figured he was just BSing me but he wasn't kidding. It idles the same, runs the same till you hit the throttle.

My motor is a 351w with a Scat 3.75 crank with a 6.250 H beam rod. IIRC it calculates out to 382 cid. It has a set of TFS high ports and a Weiand dual plane on it. Runs on pump gas all day long and makes around 500 hspr. Bennet claims 505 IIRC. I bet it makes that now.... :angel:
 

     Ron Pope Motorsports                Advertise with Us!     
Back
Top