That's why I posted !! It's bad enough trying to sort good info from bad when you're pretty sure of what's right , but for some, who don't know , to read that & take it as gospel , without anyone sayin' anything is just wrong ! C'mon guys , some of us know better & we need to speak up !!
dave
I'll take a breath now
I'm with 2old on this one. Running it loose may actually help. Running a steering stabilizer sometimes helps. But it's a bandaid not a fix. IMHO. I would much rather have a fix especially in a fiberglass car with a power to weight ratio better than most super cars.
I'm with 2old on this one. Running it loose may actually help. Running a steering stabilizer sometimes helps. But it's a bandaid not a fix. IMHO. I would much rather have a fix especially in a fiberglass car with a power to weight ratio better than most super cars.
I probable did have it too tight at first, since you had to help it center after a 90* turn, but I might have it a little loose now.
The first test run after tightening up I had my grandson driving and he really had no wobble, but when I drove the next day I got a little. (same road). I am satisfied that there is no play from king pins or rod ends. toe in at 1/4-9/16". from the naked eye it looks like there is very little caster. I going to have to figure out who can check it around here or get me a gauge.
I guess you adjust the caster by shorting and lengthen the 4 bar links.
How would a steering stab hook up. Come off the panhard bar bracket and pick-up the tie rod?
When I suggested a tight spot in the center of travel, I was taking about about 12-16 inch pounds of drag with the steering linkage disconnected. Most steering boxes are designed to be loose off center to help the steering return to center, but be without slack on center.
Personally, any car that I have driven that had slack in the steering sucked. My car has no slop in the steering and feels connected to the road. I've driven WAY faster in my bucket than I should even say and felt completely in control. There's no way I would have gone that fast with slop in the steering.
You can check caster with a simple welding protractor on top of the kingpin bosses. I use a large socket that will clear the top of the kingpin and sit on the KP boss. Yes, you adjust it with the 4-bar ends.
The damper that SoCal Speedshop sells mounts on one of the 4-bar links and the drag link.
I will comment on steering dampers. I agree that they are not needed and can be used as a bandaid. My car doesn't need a damper now, but it did when it was first put in the road because it had out of round front brake drums and shook pretty bad under braking. The drum castings were apparently "green" and even though I had them turned, they went out of round again. The damper allowed me to drive the car enough to get several heat cycles in the drums. After a trip to the mountains, the drum castings stabilized enough that another turning left them round. No more brake induced wobble. It was amazing how bad my wobble was and how much the damper helped. It literally had no wobble with the damper and would try to shake the steering wheel out of your hands without it. I don't need it now, but left it on because the brackets had scratched up my jet hot coated suspension and steering bars.
Way back in the 70's, GM wanted to improve the first generation Monte Carlo. One of the engineers drove a Mercedes sedan and was very impressed with the way it drove. The engineering crew analyzed the suspension on the Merc to see if there was anything they could use on the Monte. One thing they focused on was that Mercedes used a damper on the steering. They thought it made enough difference that a damper was included on the second generation Monte. This info was in a book on suspension I bought back when I was in high school and the 2nd gen Monte was still new.
SwampDog, in the picture in post #23 it looks to me like you have positive castor by the angle of the king pins and spindles. It could be just camera angle. Top of king pin should be layed back at the top to rear of car when looking straight down on the king pin.
I agree with the bandaids....this ain't Rocket Science....but once hit with the Death Wobble, it'll scare the bejesus outta ya....a little shakin' and shimmyin' is usually either rod flexing or loosness, bent rim, egged tire, even wear patterns on the tire will set up a harmonic vibration....also, tire balance is critical on these really light cars. Its also good to check the wheelbearings, also.
A heavier cars front suspension can absorb some of this wobblying....
There's Death Wobble (wheel shimmy) and there's wheel hop (axle see-saw). I fought the latter for more than six months when I first got my car. In the end, it was mostly due to out-of-round and out-of-balance wheels and tires. One lesson I learned from all this is not to assume wheels and tires are good, just because they're new.
Swampdog, do you have a few more pics of that fine-looking car that you could post?
I don't think anyone suggested adjusting the steering box loose. I said adjusted to recommended lash setting. I just reconditioned my box last year, replacing bushing, seals, and cleaning everything in hot solvent tank. When you disassemble everything, you will understand how your box works and it will be immediately obvious that over-adjusting the end cap will wear out your bearings and over-adjusting the lash screw will wear out your worm and sector. A tight spot in the center is a sure sign that your lash adjustment is too tight.
A steering stabilizer is completely unnecessary on a properly set up front end. I tried one and removed it because it made no difference. (if anyone wants a brand-new SoCal damper, I will be happy to sell it).
Your steering box is not the cause of or the solution to shimmy. It's just one thing you have to have right if you want a car that doesn't shimmy. My traditional-steering car has a short drag link operating 90 degrees from the tie rod so the frequencies don't harmonize. Cross steer has 2 relatively long links operating in the same plane which are more likely to harmonize. An over-tightened box just makes everything worse.
I'm surprised that some people accept shimmy as something to be dealt with, when a good car should not shimmy at all. Toe-out, steering dampers, and overtightened steering box are all cover-up "solutions" to links which are humming at the wrong frequency. If your car drives better with the steering box adjusted to the recommended lash, it will drive perfectly when you eliminate the resonance between the links. Replace your cross link (and/or tie rod) with larger, lighter tubing and you will be amazed at the results.
If you have a steering problem and you put a dampner on to mask the problem you are simply adding a band aid and are wrong. If, on the other hand, you have correctly functioning steering and add a dampner to aid in absorbing road shock you are correct. In theory this will add longevity to your suspension, but you might have to live a very long time to see the result. Think of it like adding zinc to your oil. The zinc is a good cushion for valve train components that would otherwise slam together such as flat tappets against a push rod or cam shaft, however all the zinc in the world is not going to adjust your valve lash.
As to cross steering having problems with harmonic vibration in the parallel drag link and tie rod, go to any large car show and look at the steering in all 300 of the deuce roadsters. You rarely see one of those (along with many other types of cars) without cross steering and I doubt that they can all be wrong. Long, bouncing drag link from a Corvair box to the steering arm? Ever seen a fuel dragster chassis? Those drag links are the longest on the planet and most of them don't slow down to 50 mph because of front wheel shimmy. I'm not saying that these problems can't exist, I'm not saying that any previously proposed solutions might not be effective. I just want to point out that there are real world examples which show you cannot simply make blanket statements about this or that occurring in all situations.
I didn't see any blanket statement about something occurring in all situations. I've seen many 32s and dragsters and one thing I've noticed is they're not Ts, which is what we're talking about here. It's quite a leap to read that I think all cross steer setups are wrong.
I solve problems related to harmonic vibrations every day (I work in the aerospace industry), and I have a T which steers every bit as well as my BMW. I have solved this particular problem and offered the solution to a fellow owner. Front end questions seem to draw a lot of flak on this forum, much of it uninformed. My suggestions are real-world, grounded in experience, and proven to work.
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