Is there an easy way to set toe out on a CCR front axle with motorcycle ft wheels and tires? I just changed all the steering joints and would like to know where to take measurments for toe. I put a couple of 2x2's across the tires and wheels and measured, but seemed kinda hokey to me. is there a better way?
Is there an easy way to set toe out?
- Thread starter fatbob
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roadmonster
Member
Unless your car is front-wheel drive, you should not toe it out. A properly set up T should run about 1/8-1/4" toe-in. I have a homemade alignment jig which works perfectly and results in virtually no tread wear after thousands of miles. If your car toes out at rest, it will only get worse when the rear wheels push the fronts farther out. Your tires will be scrubbing sideways hundreds of feet each mile.
The files are too large to post the photos now. I will try to make them small enough to post.
The files are too large to post the photos now. I will try to make them small enough to post.
roadmonster
Member
Here's the alignment rig. I have driven this car for 7 years and only aligned it once when I changed the tie rod. It has approx 20k miles without adjustment. It will track hands-off all day long and steers very lightly. Toe-out will make your car and your tires work very hard.
Use good 1x2 with 1/8" ply gussets and mount a thin blade on one arm and an adjustable 6" metal rule on the other. Go back and forth a couple of times, then roll the car back and forward a little to double-check. If you do it correctly, your 1/8" of toe-in will become parallel at road speed, your tires will last, and your steering will be light and responsive.
There will be howls of disagreement on this, because people do use toe-out to cover up existing problems by loading up the front end. If your car needs toe-out, chances are something is wrong.
Use good 1x2 with 1/8" ply gussets and mount a thin blade on one arm and an adjustable 6" metal rule on the other. Go back and forth a couple of times, then roll the car back and forward a little to double-check. If you do it correctly, your 1/8" of toe-in will become parallel at road speed, your tires will last, and your steering will be light and responsive.
There will be howls of disagreement on this, because people do use toe-out to cover up existing problems by loading up the front end. If your car needs toe-out, chances are something is wrong.
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I've seen a simple tool made with two pieces of aluminum angle with a slot cut in each end as a register for a tape measure, the problem is I don't remember where seen it. I just use square tube or angle, just remember to measure the same distance in front as in back. Ill try to find a picture.
roadmonster
Member
You could also make the jig from a single piece of 1/2" or 3/4" plywood. I first tried masking tape on the floor marked with a carpenter's square. But it's important to roll the car backward after any tie rod adjustment to unload it and then forward to load it again. You can't do that very well with tape and square, but you can with an accurate jig.
bigblk1177
Member
Oh Oh This thread might get long on the pros and cons of in & out. I'm just saying!!!
I've had a few older cars that I couldn't take to an alignment shop. I would use a helper and measure to the inside wheel rim lips front and back. But you can't always do that because of suspension or body components in the way. If I was alone I would hook the tape measure to a tire tread and measure across to the corresponding tread on the other tire, front and back. Not the most accurate, but it worked in a pinch. I'll have to use something more accurate for this car because I think with the archaic suspension design, it will be more critical.
I made a toe gauge out of 1/2" conduit, 2 drilled out couplings to slide over conduit with feet welded onto them. Screws to adjust and tighten into place for different width vehicles. Use screws or add flat strips to top of couplings with holes and pointers cut into them to measure by. Made a tri foot base with a scriber attached to foot to scribe tires in the center, to make sure measurements were the same front and back of tires.
Most important thing is to make sure you do not have is bent rims or out of lateral tires for any alignment to be done properly. IMHO and experience.
Most important thing is to make sure you do not have is bent rims or out of lateral tires for any alignment to be done properly. IMHO and experience.
EX JUNK
Moderator
Being a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. principle I use a very simple and accurate system for measuring "toe". It consists of four beverage cans (preferably of the same type), two pieces of angle or two by fours, and a measuring tape. Place two cans on the outside of each tire (be sure that they are properly inflated, the tires that is) and place the angle or wood on top of each can so that it touches the sides of the tire. Now measure between the angle or board making sure that your tape is touching the treads of both tires. For toe in the front measurement will be less than the rear measurement and vice versa for toe out. All the parts are easily stored and take up virtually no room. As a side note, if you use full beer cans you can drink them when you finish the job to celebrate your success. LOL
Jim
Jim
bigblk1177
Member
I"ll drink to the K.I.S.S. principle my self!!!!! Hadn't thought of the beer cans been using 4 pieces of 3 inch pvc pipe. But celebrate the success same way!! LOL
Fill em with sand or water.
I have a similar KISS method. I use a string tied to the inside of one of the front wheels, wrapped around the back of the tire, touching both center outside edges of the tire, pulled tight and attached to a chair about 6 -8 feet in front of the car. Do this to both tires. Do some measurements between both strings and you'll see how much toe in/toe out you have. Have tried plumb bobs, tape on the floor, and other methods but this seems to work pretty well.
roadmonster
Member
None of these K.I.S.S. solutions is anywhere near as easy as the tool in the photo. By the time you have found 2 chairs and a piece of string, or jacked the front wheel to paint it (really?), you could have taken both measurements. It's just a ruler; no moving parts, no calculations, and it measures at the correct height automatically.
Anything that has to be assembled from multiple parts has lots of room for error. As for painting the tire, what keeps it from moving while it's jacked up? And when you roll the car to relieve the adjustment stress, each of these methods has to be repeated. Measure, adjust, check, repeat can be done in 10 minutes with the "ruler" with a very high degree of accuracy.
Anything that has to be assembled from multiple parts has lots of room for error. As for painting the tire, what keeps it from moving while it's jacked up? And when you roll the car to relieve the adjustment stress, each of these methods has to be repeated. Measure, adjust, check, repeat can be done in 10 minutes with the "ruler" with a very high degree of accuracy.
bigblk1177
Member
I like the " tool" in your photo, looks similar to a device we used at trucking terminal years ago, to set toe. But I would say it also qualifies a KISS solution. I just love anything you can do with beer cans involved, after your work is done!!! Must have too Much Bama in me!! Anyway you have a Merry Christmas
EX JUNK
Moderator
I agree with your last sentence one hundred percent! I feel the same way about the use of a steering stabilizer/damper. If everything is absolutely correct, toe in and no stabilizer/damper are all that is needed. I have also expressed the need for proper Ackerman in other posts. There are many engineers that are a LOT smarter than me and they agree. IMHO
Jim
roadmonster
Member
Yes! I installed a stabilizer because everybody said it was necessary. Not at all. I removed mine and never used it again. A lot of Ts have tie rods ahead of the axle which makes correct Ackerman hard to get. I have an extremely short wheelbase and trailing tie rod so Ackerman is easy. I also have traditional steering, less forgiving than cross steer, but still no problems.
EX JUNK
Moderator
Unless you made new steering arms you'll never attain proper Ackerman when putting the tie rod in front of the axle. What you'll have is the reverse of Ackerman. To check Ackerman on a reversed tie rod draw a line from the center of the tie rod mounting bolt and through the center of the king pin on both sides. Ideally they should intersect at the rear end. Without changing the steering arms the lines will go to the outside of the car and never intersect.
Jim
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