Larry Dixon Crash
- Thread starter RPM
- Start date
EX JUNK
Moderator
I bet he had some dirty underware, I know that I would've.
fluidfloyd
Active Member
Does not surprise me in the least. They load the nose of the car with all the fuel and down force wing, use lite wall frame rail tubing that will bow on acceleration and de-acceleration and try to glue the rear and front tires to the track. That arching in the chassis all takes place in the area between the drivers foot box and the front a-arms and is only someones guess as to it's longevity. Use to be that the back section between the rear motor plate and the rear end housing was the problem area. Just the constant flexing has to start a cyclic fail at some point and it's anyone's guess as to when that happens. After Darrell Gwynn broke the back of his car off in April of 1990 all chassis's were stripped of emron paint and left bare in order to inspect for starting cracks. Very violent operating conditions to be placing yourself for fun and fame. This latest event will have everyone inspecting their cars and thinking about what the next fix is. Glad he is alright but sure would have to give pause and think about a better way to get from point A to point B! Really don't miss building those cars in the least. I always had that fear of someone getting killed for severely injured in one of my cars. Got lucky I guess but did have two that died running my floater rear end housings. A Dapozzo on 10.Sep.1993 in a Alcohol Funny Car and Walter Henry on 29.Oct.1989 in an IHRA Pro Stock car. Dapozzo broke a rear axle and made a 90 degree turn and t-boned the barrier wall igniting the fuel tank. Died from inhaling fire and fumes a week later as I recall. Henry just got in over his head on launching the car and tried to drive out of a bad situation and hit a retaining wall dieing from impact trauma. Glad to be out of that world. Dixion is one lucky man as that could have turned out much worse.
AGREED!!! If safety is an issue, which it clearly is on these rail frames, then NHRA and IHRA should make drastic changes, IMHO. Just think what might have happened if his head had came down onto the concrete barrier in that crash. I don't think any roll cage would have saved him. JM2CW
Mike
Well-Known Member
If you really want to be amazed, check out these stills of the accident - http://markjrebilas.com/blog/?p=21971
I was standing behind the starting line, when Al DaPozzo crashed. Al was a friend we affectionately referred to as Fat Albert. (He never forgave us for the 'Nothing Runs Like A Deere' sticker we put on the back of his car.) The car shook, violently, and went hard left. Albert tried to catch it and went hard right, hitting the wall. The impact apparently knocked him unconscious, but it also broke the steering, so the car just kept scrubbing the wall. The right headers were destroyed, and the exhaust heat ignited the body.
It was a perfect storm. I don't think there was anything else that could possibly have gone wrong. It was just noon, and the temperature was already pushing into the upper-90's. I'm not naming any names, but the NHRA safety truck had been sent to town to get gasoline. It was miserable, stinking hot, and the decision was made, after a protracted and animated 'discussion', to start running cars. After all, the track safety equipment was all on hand. What could go wrong, aye? Well, we were about to learn that the whole deal was going to go to Hell in a handbasket.
As soon as they spied the fire, they sent a flatbed truck with a water tank, a pump, and fire hoses down the grassy area between the track and the bleachers. Albert's car had finally burned up the tires and had come to a stop, so the truck slid up next to it. The guy in the passenger seat jumped out, ran around back to get a fire hose, and stepped in a mole hole, which neatly snapped his lower leg into two pieces. Albert's car was ablaze, and here was this poor fellow laying on the ground, screaming in agony. If there were any gore-spores in the bleachers, they got their money's worth, that day.
By the time the driver sorted what had happened, he was running to get to the hose, but it was too late for Albert. His fire suit was failing when they got to him, and he had torched his lungs.
It was a really sad day for anyone who knew Albert. For the life of me, I cannot remember his wife's name, Joanne, maybe? She was Ricky Klarr's sister. She ended up with an attorney who was ready to sue anything that moved. If something didn't move, he kicked at it until it did move, and then he filed suit against it, too. That turned into an ugly mess, which really made it all the more sad for everyone. They sued NHRA, they sued Beech Bend, they sued Wolverine (Albert's sponsor), and anyone else they thought could be held accountable.
Apparently, the chassis on Dixon's car had just been gone over, prior to the race, and no one saw anything amiss. If you look at the photo series I linked to, it is pretty scary at how close Dixon came to some serious foot injuries. Thank Goodness, the foot box held. When I worked for Murf McKinney, that poor guy used to worry himself sick about someone getting injured. He was confident that his cars would hold up in an accident, but there is no way to protect the fragile and delicate human organism riding inside. Crash a car into a wall at speed and the integrity of the driver's bays always holds up. It is things like human organs tearing free, with the sudden impacts that causes the medical problems.
Bottom line - racing is inherently dangerous.
I was standing behind the starting line, when Al DaPozzo crashed. Al was a friend we affectionately referred to as Fat Albert. (He never forgave us for the 'Nothing Runs Like A Deere' sticker we put on the back of his car.) The car shook, violently, and went hard left. Albert tried to catch it and went hard right, hitting the wall. The impact apparently knocked him unconscious, but it also broke the steering, so the car just kept scrubbing the wall. The right headers were destroyed, and the exhaust heat ignited the body.
It was a perfect storm. I don't think there was anything else that could possibly have gone wrong. It was just noon, and the temperature was already pushing into the upper-90's. I'm not naming any names, but the NHRA safety truck had been sent to town to get gasoline. It was miserable, stinking hot, and the decision was made, after a protracted and animated 'discussion', to start running cars. After all, the track safety equipment was all on hand. What could go wrong, aye? Well, we were about to learn that the whole deal was going to go to Hell in a handbasket.
As soon as they spied the fire, they sent a flatbed truck with a water tank, a pump, and fire hoses down the grassy area between the track and the bleachers. Albert's car had finally burned up the tires and had come to a stop, so the truck slid up next to it. The guy in the passenger seat jumped out, ran around back to get a fire hose, and stepped in a mole hole, which neatly snapped his lower leg into two pieces. Albert's car was ablaze, and here was this poor fellow laying on the ground, screaming in agony. If there were any gore-spores in the bleachers, they got their money's worth, that day.
By the time the driver sorted what had happened, he was running to get to the hose, but it was too late for Albert. His fire suit was failing when they got to him, and he had torched his lungs.
It was a really sad day for anyone who knew Albert. For the life of me, I cannot remember his wife's name, Joanne, maybe? She was Ricky Klarr's sister. She ended up with an attorney who was ready to sue anything that moved. If something didn't move, he kicked at it until it did move, and then he filed suit against it, too. That turned into an ugly mess, which really made it all the more sad for everyone. They sued NHRA, they sued Beech Bend, they sued Wolverine (Albert's sponsor), and anyone else they thought could be held accountable.
Apparently, the chassis on Dixon's car had just been gone over, prior to the race, and no one saw anything amiss. If you look at the photo series I linked to, it is pretty scary at how close Dixon came to some serious foot injuries. Thank Goodness, the foot box held. When I worked for Murf McKinney, that poor guy used to worry himself sick about someone getting injured. He was confident that his cars would hold up in an accident, but there is no way to protect the fragile and delicate human organism riding inside. Crash a car into a wall at speed and the integrity of the driver's bays always holds up. It is things like human organs tearing free, with the sudden impacts that causes the medical problems.
Bottom line - racing is inherently dangerous.
fluidfloyd
Active Member
Mike...Thanks for responding about Al. I really didn't know everything about the lawsuit but I'll tell you what I did know and my involvement. The chassis that Al was driving was actually a new car from S&W. Scott always helped Al out on price as they were friends and Al raced on a budget as you probably well know. I built all the 9" Ford rear housings for S&W's Funny cars. These were the fabricated sheet metal housings that I developed in 1980 for T/F cars. Due to the design they were very stiff in both the vertical and horizontal axis and because of that the floater spindles took much high acceleration and tire shake loads. Our preference was Mark Williams then Strange then go somewhere else! S&W ran Strange unless the customer requested something else. I never varied the width or mounting points on any of their F/C units per their request. I had 3-4 on order for them and they would just drop ship the spindles prior to the build but one day a set show up for the Daposso and they were the smallest diameter snout and bearing package I had ever seen. The build sheet was also showing a wider wheel to wheel width so I called Scott. It was at the customer request and no matter what I said, that's what they wanted. I gave my arguments but seeing as Scott was a friend I agreed but first I called DaPosso and gave him all the technical reasons, the strength differences and the fact he would have to run small diameter/spline axles that wouldn't resist the torsional twist problems. Made no difference as they were free! I said OK but I will write in a disclaimer and he was good with that. Built it and sent it to S&W and they delivered the car. When I heard about the crash I called Scott to find out what happened. Al's wife told him that Al was on oxygen but wrote on a note pad "Check Axles." Sure enough one was broken in half. She told Scott that they were not going to sue anyone but I guess with three hungry kids standing there and a shark lawyer circling the waters you rethink your statement. Unfortunately, I can see her side to some degree but it's still wrong as I remember no one ever having a gun held to there head and forced to drive one of these cars. They sued everyone standing except S&W and me! I was stunned and can only think that Scott's help to them for so long and me working at his direction kept us clear. They sued Oldsmobile because it was an Olds glass body, the seat belt guy, the fire suit people, the track, the fuel supplier and on and on. Harry's Fiber glass got sued because it burned. He told me later that he had spent around $10K and finally said I'm done! Filed bankruptcy, moved across the street and his wife became the fiberglass queen. You are right about the tack fire truck. I heard one of the crew fell off breaking his arm or leg and they stopped to get him. Got to the fire and their extinguisher was damn near empty and did run dry. That event set my rules on rearend designs and I made no exceptions as it just wasn't worth it. I never met Al but talked to him several times and it was always a pleasure.
Now, about Dixon's car...I spotted an interesting statement he made to the news media.
"It was unclear what caused the chassis to buckle at such high speed. Dixon said the car had 60 or 70 passes on it, so frame rails shouldn't have been stressed to the point of failure." Say What!! Is that a scientific fact based of bending and reverse bending a .065 wall tube that was calculated by a metallurgist or did that just come in as a vision from a cloud bank? All it takes is to have a fingernail scratch, a gravel dink or just holding your stupid grin the wrong way and that little flaw becomes a stress riser and is subject to kill you without warning. Your buddy Murf has good reason to be concerned and to worry. After all, drivers are only strapping themselves into a steel tube and trying outrun a nitro loaded bomb that want to give you an a big bang thrill. What's not to like about that. And that's my take on the subject. My apologies for making this so long.
George
http://espn.go.com/racing/nhra/story/_/id/12482651/larry-dixon-walks-away-scary-crash-gatornationals
Now, about Dixon's car...I spotted an interesting statement he made to the news media.
"It was unclear what caused the chassis to buckle at such high speed. Dixon said the car had 60 or 70 passes on it, so frame rails shouldn't have been stressed to the point of failure." Say What!! Is that a scientific fact based of bending and reverse bending a .065 wall tube that was calculated by a metallurgist or did that just come in as a vision from a cloud bank? All it takes is to have a fingernail scratch, a gravel dink or just holding your stupid grin the wrong way and that little flaw becomes a stress riser and is subject to kill you without warning. Your buddy Murf has good reason to be concerned and to worry. After all, drivers are only strapping themselves into a steel tube and trying outrun a nitro loaded bomb that want to give you an a big bang thrill. What's not to like about that. And that's my take on the subject. My apologies for making this so long.
George
http://espn.go.com/racing/nhra/story/_/id/12482651/larry-dixon-walks-away-scary-crash-gatornationals
It is not Murphy's Law,, rather the law of physics. Nothing is infallible under stress. It will break, just don't know when.
This is why I call you an engineer. You know what the breaking point of designs are and of the materials used. Never leave yourself open to whatever the consequences may be. It may take all you have to get away from it.
Johnny
Member
It was a qualifying run. So no one won. Dixon had a similar crash 14 years ago. Think he broke some bones in that one.
Indycars
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that info!!!
fluidfloyd
Active Member
T-Test... no engineer here for sure. About as close to that description is I might have driven the Kiddie Train at a petting zoo once and I think alcohol might have been involved! Most of my limited knowledge was been OJT and the experiences of breaking things due to over stressing them. Sometimes not very pretty but damn accurate results. I have been very fortunate to have been involved with a number of real engineers that were hands on type men and most raced cars for fun. I always thought the fun was building them over the racing them and so did they. Practical experience will eventually get you to the design level you need to be at to survive and in my case it seems to have worked. To give you a shinning example of that I am reminded of one of the forum members that can design or build anything I can think of. That would be George Barnes! I knew of him from the old days of Tubular Dynamics and the street rod world. I only met him a few years ago while in the Kansas City area for a weekend. Since I have now been up here for a little over a year I have gotten to know him a little better and I have to tell you is truly a smart, intelligent and humble man and I am in awe of his work. I'm glad to be able to call him my friend. So thanks for the compliment and maybe we'll cross paths someday. Take care.
George
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Self taught engineers are the best in my opinion. You and GB and a few others here prove that trial and error is what it takes to be an engineer. No schooling necessary, for all you are doing is following in the footsteps of others who may have failed or prevailed at whatever the task at hand was. And I think that GB has earned his stripes to be an engineer by his precise works and amazing ability to build anything that can be imagined. He would also probably tell you what its limitations would be, as any well respected engineer would do. I try to do the same when I'm building anything, but Murphy's Law usually prevails, or I get in a hurry and screw it up.
GAB
Member
Whoa! While I appreciate the kind words, I definitely don't deserve them. I am not an engineer or anything close to one. The closest I got was one year at a local junior college in a pre-engineering program.
My idea of an engineer is someone who can crunch the numbers to determine if a design is capable of doing the desired job in the most efficient manner...not too overkill but enough to stand up to the task.
I would think that what we do would be closer to a designers function. Make items that serve the purpose in the most direct manner. I've been lucky enough over the years to create several items that have been a financial success and several that weren't so hot.
I've always liked to make things. And being economically challenged (poor!) has led me to figure out a way to get the job done in some cases. If you can't afford to do it twice, you had better do it right the first time.
Again, thanks for the nice words. Save them for someone truly deserving.
My idea of an engineer is someone who can crunch the numbers to determine if a design is capable of doing the desired job in the most efficient manner...not too overkill but enough to stand up to the task.
I would think that what we do would be closer to a designers function. Make items that serve the purpose in the most direct manner. I've been lucky enough over the years to create several items that have been a financial success and several that weren't so hot.
I've always liked to make things. And being economically challenged (poor!) has led me to figure out a way to get the job done in some cases. If you can't afford to do it twice, you had better do it right the first time.
Again, thanks for the nice words. Save them for someone truly deserving.
fluidfloyd
Active Member
Designers Function...Yes, I think I like that description just fine as it will fit many and elsewhere. An as far as bragging on you GAB, well I was just making sure you were alive and well. Now about that term. How would
Designer Function Specialist look on a business card! Take care North George.
The Other George
fluidfloyd
Active Member
More pictures on Larry Dixon's crash.
I received these pictures this afternoon and though everyone would enjoy studying them. As you can see there was a structural failure on the right side of the chassis just at the foot box area. Lot's of energy released at that time and the car really started arching up and probably sideways. Really amazing photos catching all the detail. When the car came down it appears the right rear tire sucked uo a lot of energy then bounce the chassis up for a second hard impact. Dion is one lucky man and I'm sure he knows it. Just looking at the drivers bay it doesn't look like there have been any tubing size or layout since the late '80s. So now, who wants to be a Top Fuel pilot?
http://markjrebilas.com/blog/?p=21971#more-21971
Photographer Mark Rebilashttp
I received these pictures this afternoon and though everyone would enjoy studying them. As you can see there was a structural failure on the right side of the chassis just at the foot box area. Lot's of energy released at that time and the car really started arching up and probably sideways. Really amazing photos catching all the detail. When the car came down it appears the right rear tire sucked uo a lot of energy then bounce the chassis up for a second hard impact. Dion is one lucky man and I'm sure he knows it. Just looking at the drivers bay it doesn't look like there have been any tubing size or layout since the late '80s. So now, who wants to be a Top Fuel pilot?
http://markjrebilas.com/blog/?p=21971#more-21971
Photographer Mark Rebilashttp
Mike
Well-Known Member
No apology necessary. It was an interesting read. Al was a good guy, and I hated what had happened to him. I hated, even more, what happened to his memory, throughout all the legal posturing.
Over the years, I've seen things that would curdle your blood. Names are withheld, for obvious reasons.
Whilst at Murf's, we had just finished a dragster for the team Dixon was driving for, at the time. The tuner on the car was one of the individuals who showed up to pick everything up. He was looking over the nose wing blocks (this was in the day of the cars using two nose wings, one on each side of the nose), and saw we had manufactured them from aluminum. He demanded we duplicate them in magnesium. Trying to explain why we had used aluminum only made this individual spitting mad. I said, that day, Dixon needed his firesuit and helmet decorated to make him look like a crash-test dummy. His tuner was one of the best, but the guy had some really wild ideas.
Until you have seen what tire shake can do to a car, you simply cannot comprehend it. The Fuel cars would banana the forward wing struts, on the rear wings, almost every time. During the race season, Mondays were almost always consumed with making forward struts. Tire shake on the Comp car would rattle fasteners loose, and although we could shake the tires pretty hard, it was naught like the big cars. I always wondered how well those mag wing blocks held up, under those kinds of stresses.
This was back about the same time the dragsters started moving toward the long, mono-wheel, wheelie bars. This same team had hiked the front end about 2 feet, maybe 250 - 300 feet out. We would be sitting at home, watching the TV coverage, and making notes, because although that never seemed like a violent deal, it would almost always take out the spindles, the rack, the tie rods, and the nose wings. Sometimes it would also damage the A-arms and the nose wing blocks. One of those seemingly 'gentle' wheelstands could cost as much as $4,500. Anyway, this very same team stuck the front end of the car in a pick-up, got it back to the pits, and replaced the broken parts. When they saw the chassis had sagged from the landing (are you sitting down???), they rolled the front end under the trailer, then put a hydraulic jack under the chassis, and tweaked the tubing back as straight as they could get it.
Some of the cars have some pretty lame slip-joint engineering behind them. But take away the slip-joints and you would never get one of those cars to leave the starting line. The tires would be smoking before the first revolution. My guess is this was likely what caused the problem with Dixon's car. It is pretty amazing how much those cars move in that area. There is a way to make a pretty reliable and fool-proof slip-joint, but who knows if Hadman is using anything like that, or not?
one finger john
Active Member
Any idea why the front wing was dipped down on the left side in the first track photo?
Also the tubing seems to be the same throughout the frame, including the drivers enclosure. Are the slip joints in front of that area? How far does the larger tube fit over the smaller (and presumably thicker drivers area tube) extend?
John
Also the tubing seems to be the same throughout the frame, including the drivers enclosure. Are the slip joints in front of that area? How far does the larger tube fit over the smaller (and presumably thicker drivers area tube) extend?
John
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fluidfloyd
Active Member
one finger john
John...It's been a number of years since I built or repaired one of these cars so I can only speculate tube sizes. They use to require 1 3/8 x .058 wall lower tubes the length of the drivers compartment. The upper tubes were 1 1/5 .058 05 .065 tube. I can't remember which wall thickness it was but the funny cars required .065 which made it a pain to telescope down to 1 3/8 OD . By making all tubes have a wall thickness of .058" you could slip fit tubes though out the entire chassis. As for he length of the slip fit section...Not real sure but about
4 1/2" from the center line of the miter angle sounds about right. In those days the cars were about 255-260" wheelbase and they didn't slip float them like the current cars. The front section had long bays with minimal or no diagonals and the cars would arch in that area. The uprights were just welded to short sleeves that floated on the main frame rails top and bottom. There were usually short slip tubes about 1/4" long that were placed on either side of the slip tubes and uprights. These were tack welded with a small gap between them and the welded sleeve. This was done to limit the amount of arch in the frame. Pretty much a guess for sure.
As to the car sagging on one side. If you look about half way down that group of pictures there are several shots of the broken front section that show the break took place at the first vertical upright forward of the foot box section. Scroll down a few more and you see a front view showing both top rails with a big bend curling to the drivers right side. Again to my thinking the right side (probably lower rail) gave up first. Once that bad boy got sideways and yielded or sheared away I thing the car was accelerating so fast that it tried to pass the front section. Most people have no concept of the kind of forces and power that are in play with these cars. I'm sure that this will be analyzed by a number of people before it's hung from the ceiling as a trophy.
Now I'm going to tell you about another incident I was involved in years ago. It was a Top Alcohol Dragster and it was back in the day of tire shake that would literally knock drivers unconscious. I can't remember if I built the car or was just repairing it (I think I built it) but it was a fairly new car. The standing joke when buying a car from various builders was "Are you getting a two or three back half car?" Top fuel cars that matched raced and a lot of national event cars would be backed half mid season as just part of the expense. Anyway, this car came in and they had broken the top frame rails about 3-4" behind the rear motor plate. The car didn't separate as the driver felt the back half get squirrely and shut it down. The crack was in a straight line perpendicular to the tube length and was all the way through on both sides. The strange thing was about .09" either side of that crack there was a bulge all the way around the circumference. That really baffled me for a while but after thinking about it for a day or so I came to the conclusion that the top rails were compressing and stretching as it cycled through tire shake. Since a fuel dragster has no suspension the chassis is one long ladder bar trying to lift the front wheels. The material cycled so hard that at some point it passed it's yield point in compression and bulged. With the stretching of the material and the permanent deformation of that section it finally just sheared itself in two. The bottom rails being in constant compression just kept pushing everything forward resulting in the car getting stopped with no further damage. You really see some crazy things in that world but some of it really makes you question what you're doing. Again, this is just my opinion and I might be 180 out but time will tell as NHRA will be right in the middle of it as they should be. Later I will tell you of one last thing about tire shake and impact loads and it wasn't pretty. Hope this gives you some answers to your questions. Take care and I'll be in touch.
George
John...It's been a number of years since I built or repaired one of these cars so I can only speculate tube sizes. They use to require 1 3/8 x .058 wall lower tubes the length of the drivers compartment. The upper tubes were 1 1/5 .058 05 .065 tube. I can't remember which wall thickness it was but the funny cars required .065 which made it a pain to telescope down to 1 3/8 OD . By making all tubes have a wall thickness of .058" you could slip fit tubes though out the entire chassis. As for he length of the slip fit section...Not real sure but about
4 1/2" from the center line of the miter angle sounds about right. In those days the cars were about 255-260" wheelbase and they didn't slip float them like the current cars. The front section had long bays with minimal or no diagonals and the cars would arch in that area. The uprights were just welded to short sleeves that floated on the main frame rails top and bottom. There were usually short slip tubes about 1/4" long that were placed on either side of the slip tubes and uprights. These were tack welded with a small gap between them and the welded sleeve. This was done to limit the amount of arch in the frame. Pretty much a guess for sure.
As to the car sagging on one side. If you look about half way down that group of pictures there are several shots of the broken front section that show the break took place at the first vertical upright forward of the foot box section. Scroll down a few more and you see a front view showing both top rails with a big bend curling to the drivers right side. Again to my thinking the right side (probably lower rail) gave up first. Once that bad boy got sideways and yielded or sheared away I thing the car was accelerating so fast that it tried to pass the front section. Most people have no concept of the kind of forces and power that are in play with these cars. I'm sure that this will be analyzed by a number of people before it's hung from the ceiling as a trophy.
Now I'm going to tell you about another incident I was involved in years ago. It was a Top Alcohol Dragster and it was back in the day of tire shake that would literally knock drivers unconscious. I can't remember if I built the car or was just repairing it (I think I built it) but it was a fairly new car. The standing joke when buying a car from various builders was "Are you getting a two or three back half car?" Top fuel cars that matched raced and a lot of national event cars would be backed half mid season as just part of the expense. Anyway, this car came in and they had broken the top frame rails about 3-4" behind the rear motor plate. The car didn't separate as the driver felt the back half get squirrely and shut it down. The crack was in a straight line perpendicular to the tube length and was all the way through on both sides. The strange thing was about .09" either side of that crack there was a bulge all the way around the circumference. That really baffled me for a while but after thinking about it for a day or so I came to the conclusion that the top rails were compressing and stretching as it cycled through tire shake. Since a fuel dragster has no suspension the chassis is one long ladder bar trying to lift the front wheels. The material cycled so hard that at some point it passed it's yield point in compression and bulged. With the stretching of the material and the permanent deformation of that section it finally just sheared itself in two. The bottom rails being in constant compression just kept pushing everything forward resulting in the car getting stopped with no further damage. You really see some crazy things in that world but some of it really makes you question what you're doing. Again, this is just my opinion and I might be 180 out but time will tell as NHRA will be right in the middle of it as they should be. Later I will tell you of one last thing about tire shake and impact loads and it wasn't pretty. Hope this gives you some answers to your questions. Take care and I'll be in touch.
George
