Trailers and CDL

[RPM]

Here is the question. If you have a trailer with 2 5200 lb axles in it, does this put the the gross rating on this trailer at 10,400 lbs. If this is correct then you have to have a class A CDL to even move this trailer even if it is empty?

Here is the law, "Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GCWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds."

Seems a little confusing to me. Is it 26,001 or 10,000 that is key to needing a class A CDL.

I will call the Highway Patrol office tomorrow to find out.

 

[butch27]

Dang Ron: You're a School Bus driver. You must have a CDL already??

 

[fordsbyjay]

I hope not! I figured it out one time with two cars my trailer is over 10,000 by itself. Just under 20k with the F350.

 

[jimbo01]

My answer is no. This is per Tennessee law http://www.dmv.org/tn-tennessee/special-licenses.php

You'll need to obtain a commercial driver's license (CDL) if you intend to drive any of the following:

• A vehicle whose actual, registered, or gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) is over 26,000 pounds and is towing a vehicle with an actual, registered, or GVWR of over 10,000 pounds (class A license)

• A vehicle whose actual, registered, or GVWR is over 26,000 pounds and is not towing another vehicle with a GVWR over 10,000 pounds (class B license)

Now, if you have RPM on the side of your truck or trailer or this is being used for your buissness I do believe you'll need a Chauffeurs License.

 

[RPM]

I have a Class B CDL with endorsements, to drive the school bus.

Jimbo01 the part of TN law that says "or GVWR of over 10,000 lbs (class A)." So does this mean a 11,000 truck and a 9999 GWVR trailer. You are good, but put the trailer at 10,000 and you need one even though the trailer may be empty. They are going by the rating, not the actual weight.

 

[Mike]

Good luck, Ron. We got jammed up in TN a couple times and contacted a document expediter, here in town, about getting everything legal. He examined the TN law and felt we were well within the law. But he then explained that is the problem with the law, because it is entirely up to the interpretation of the LEO you are dealing with. And yes, you think you might be able to beat things in a court of law, but that means naught at 2:00 AM, when you're just trying to get to the next race or the next show.

When you think the law is axle-dependent, you then find out it is weight-dependent. Then when you get those ducks in a row, you find out length plays a part.

Drive within the speed limit, don't display any antennae, never use a radar detector and keep your fingers crossed. And whatever you do, avoid the temptation to identify anything as being a recreational vehicle.

 

[weelstang]

OK guys this is how it is. Ya'll know I've towed trailers for years with pickups. Reg your pickup for 26,000 lbs, put NOT FOR HIRE on both sides of bed. Put NOT FOR HIRE on trailer. Yes the 26,000 will cost you $$$ for reg. but will get you out of a jam some time. This whole thing is about "Road Tax Fees" . I got stopped returning from Lenior nats because people are hauling GOODS in enclosed trailers and NOT paying road tax. He couldn't make me open the back because I'd not dun anything worng, but I showed him my bucket anyway & he went away. That TV show about small haulers is making things hard on all enclosed trailers. If you have some advertisement on the side of trailer you pay a fee in many states. Also a CDL may be required ? 160 $ in CO, 150 $ in AZ each time you go into these states with ads on trailers, if you don't buy a yearly tag which is Road Tax Fee. me xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Stephen]

I was of the impression you could drive anything you want without a CDL as long as you were not being paid to drive that vehicle. Probably varies from state to state I suppose.

 

[RPM]

Here is the question. If you have a trailer with 2 5200 lb axles in it, does this put the the gross rating on this trailer at 10,400 lbs. If this is correct then you have to have a class A CDL to even move this trailer even if it is empty?

Here is the law, "Class A -- Any combination of vehicles with a GCWR of 26,001 or more pounds provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds."

Seems a little confusing to me. Is it 26,001 or 10,000 that is key to needing a class A CDL.

I will call the Highway Patrol office tomorrow to find out.

OK I called the guy at the scale house. This is pretty complicated deal. If the trailer has a GVWR over 10,000 lbs, and you are not a camper. It "IS" a commercial vehicle! You are required to stop at all truck scales. You do have to have a CDL to operate this vehicle, even if it does not have anything in it! Now it also cannot be over 48' long total length, from the tip of the front bumper of the tow vehicle to the tail of the trailer. If it is over then you need a special permit for a long load. Now take that 30' trailer and make a little sleeping quarters up front and you now have to conform to all the rules and regulations of a 18 wheeler. Such as running a log book and keeping it up to date. Putting "not for hire" on the rig is fraud and carries a big hefty fine. By passing the scales carries a big hefty fine. Being over weight carries a big fine. Also a 1 ton truck is considered a commercial vehicle and tag is to be on the front bumper, not the rear.

I learned a lot, most of it not good.

 

[T-Odd]

I guess this is a silly question, but how is "not for hire" fraud if it's not for hire? If I'm driving my truck back and forth across the country having fun with my toys and someone asks me to pick up a widget and take it across the country for a reasonable fee, I'd say no. Not for hire. That's not fraud. It would be fraud if I accepted the job to haul the widget for money.
Maybe I just don't understand the law.

Dad's flatbed trailer has two 5200 lb axles under it and he regularly tows his tractor, or a bunch of hay, or a motorcycle, or a car, or anything else he wants. He has no CDL, never stopped at weigh stations, no log book, just a 4wd Crew Cab F250 and a flatbed trailer.

He did get stopped in Florida once when pulling a five horse trailer - they wanted to see the paperwork on the horses - but dad didn't have any shot records to show; the horse trailer had six motorcycles in it.

When Dad opened it up and showed him, the Tropper just laughed and said, "Well then, have a nice day sir!"

 

[RPM]

Todd according to the Officer at the scale house on I-81 here in East Tn, you dad is breaking the law. I guess they don't have time to run everyone down every time..
A tractor and or hay is for farm use and a farm is a business, so it would be commercial. The officer told me they could keep your rig out of service till all of the required taxes and fees were paid. He said you could be at the scale house for as much as a week getting all the paper work legal. I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with him, he was a very nice guy and I learned alot from him.

I just also called on the 26,000 lb tag and it is almost $500. a lot more than the $22.00 I am used to paying.

 

[Mike]

Ron and Todd, here is how a TN State Trooper explained it, along the side of the road, within site of the weigh station we had passed. (And this is not an exaggeration, mind.) This was running a diesel Chevy dualie, pulling a a 42' aluminum gooseneck trailer, which was pretty standard fare for most drag racers at the time.

He was explaining how racers and owners of custom cars are always hauling their cars to events where prizes are commonly handed out, which makes the contents of the trailer a commercial concern. As he was explaining this, a Kodiak C4500, pulling an elegant horse trailer (multiple A/C units, polished stainless trim, polished wheels, etc.) blew the scales. When this was pointed out to the trooper, his explanation was (note the quote marks), "That is just a poor farmer, trying to make a living." ?!?! He as much as admitted the horse owner was using his vehicle to "make a living", but he was going to hassle us because we were headed to a race track where we were likely going to spend more than we could hope to earn? Makes sense, aye?

When a lot of racers were using Kodiak conversions as tow vehicles, they all thought they could just run RV tags and put 'Not for Hire' on the truck and trailer, so we inquired about that and his explanation was that an RV should have a) and operating toilet, b) a fresh water supply, c) means for both storing and preparing food, and d) sleeping quarters, to be registered as such. That same weekend, a very well-known Mopar Pro Stock team was stopped on the way back north, after blowing a weigh station in TN (Manchester, maybe??). They were pulling a 42' trailer with a C4500, that was registered as an RV and was clearly displaying 'Not for Hire'. They were turned around, escorted back to the weigh station, where the vehicle was impounded, to await the arrival of a CDL operator to come drive the rig back to IL. So, with all due respect to weelstang, 'Not for Hire' is not some magic panacea. Once again, using the great State of Tennessee as an example, if a straight truck with an attached trailer is over 65' in length, it is considered "overdimensional" and requires special permits. Period. There is no distinction made, with respect to not for hire vehicles, registered RV's, etc. And TN DOT seems to take great pleasure in pointing that out. Sound crazy? Read TN DOT Code, Chapter 1680-7-1.-01-2.

We got nailed (again in TN, in case you're looking for a pattern) at a weigh station and were told to pull around back and to bring paperwork inside. The nasty piece of work who was sitting behind the desk told us how "generous" he was being, by letting us go on, after detaining us for nearly an hour. And he also reminded us, if he ever saw us again, and we could not produce a CDL license, a log book, a medical card and an insurance card, he would impound the rig and order a DOT inspection. Nice guy, eh? I've always been amazed what changes can come over complete idiots, once they don a uniform. He claimed we were at almost 30,000 lbs, so we ran the rig over the scales at a truck stop in Ringgold, GA and got a ticket showing we were barely over 19,000. Stopping the very same rig at weigh stations here in Indiana would result in getting waved on by the scale operators. But Tennessee always wanted to give us grief.

As weelstang pointed out, it's all about road tax fees and fuel permit fees. As you can graphically see in this post. And with most states struggling to remain financially solvent, they see the enforcement of these ridiculous laws to be a means of bringing in some additional funds.

Ron, wait until your insurance provider becomes aware of the 26,000 lb. tag. You think the tag is priced dearly, but it doesn't end there. The insurance carrier will see that magic number and will suddenly insist on you carrying ridiculous liability levels. You are really about to see what is meant by opening Pandora's box. I'm betting it would be more cost-effective for you to just stick to state highways and keep on as you have in the past. Or learn where the weigh stations are and develop detours around them. I don't know how big a rig you are running, but if you're not speeding or pulling any silly stunts, you'll likely never get a second glance.

 

[GT63]

I just looked up the Requirements in the CDL handbook for Texas.

Who needs a Commercial Driver License?
All drivers who operate a commercial motor vehicle (see
definition on page 1-1) will be required to have a
Commercial Driver License (CDL) by April 1, 1992. The law
does provide for some exemptions. If the driver meets one
or more of the criteria listed below, he will not be required to
have a CDL. However, the driver will be required to have a
Class A, B, or C Non-CDL License.
Who is exempt from a CDL? (Certification form CDL-2
required)
Persons operating the following vehicles are exempt from a
Commercial Driver License:
1. A vehicle that is controlled and operated by a farmer;
and used to transport agricultural products, farm machinery, or farm supplies to or from a farm; and not used in
the operations of a common or contract motor carrier; and
used within 150 air miles of the person’s farm.
2. A fire-fighting or emergency vehicle necessary to the
preservation of life or property or the execution of emergency governmental functions, whether operated by an
employee of a political subdivision or by a volunteer fire
fighter (this includes operators of industrial emergency
vehicles);
3. A military vehicle, when operated for military purposes
by military personnel, members of the Reserves and
National Guard on active duty, including personnel on
full-time National Guard duty, personnel on part-time
training, and National Guard military technicians; or
4. A recreational vehicle that is driven for personal use.
5. A vehicle that is owned, leased, or controlled by an air
carrier, as defined by Texas Transportation Code (TRC),
Section 21.155, and that is driven or operated exclusively by an employee of the air carrier only on the premises
of an airport, as defined by the TRC, Section 22.001, on
service roads to which the public does not have access.
6. A vehicle used exclusively to transport seed cotton
modules or cotton burrs.

Page 1-1
There is a federal requirement that each state have minimum standards for the licensing of commercial drivers. This
manual provides driver license testing information for drivers
who wish to have a commercial driver license (CDL). This
manual does NOT provide information on all the federal and
state requirements needed before you can drive a commercial motor vehicle (CMV). You may have to contact your
state driver licensing authority for additional information.
You must have a CDL to operate:
1.A single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating GVWR
of more than 26,000 pounds.
2.A trailer with a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds if the
gross combination weight rating is more than 26,000
pounds.
3.A vehicle designed to transport more than 15 persons
including the driver.
4.Any size vehicle which requires hazardous materials
placards.
(Your state may have additional definitions of CMVs.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The way I interpret #2 is this, if you have a trailer that has a GVWR of 10,400 pounds( >10K) and your tow vehicle has a GVWR of 16,000 pounds (> 26K gross combined weight), the driver needs a CDL.

BTW, A 2012 Ford F350 has a GVWR of 13,300 lbs, 2012 Dodge Ram 3500 has a GVWR of 12,200 lbs, and a 2013 Chev\GMC has a GVWR of 13,025 lbs. So if your trailer has a GVWR of 14,000lbs, a CDL is required.



http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/documents/DL-7C.pdf

 

[jimbo01]

It's not that I don't believe Ron or Mike or what the scale guy said. From someone that has a CDL A, this just doesn't seem to add up to me I guess. The laws aren't always as clear as they would like you to believe they are when you're pulled over on the side of the road. I looked up some more information and came up with this and this seems to go towards what I was thinking. They seem to explain it and the law the best but did throw in the fact that some states can add requirments. If this were the case, Mike and his crew were being held hostage.


In order to determine if you need a CDL license, you need, you need to understand how the Gross Vehichle Weight Rating (GVWR) is determined. First, the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) for each vehicle is established by the truck and trailer manufacturers for their equipment. For licensing purposes, your combined GVWR is determined by adding the Manufacturer's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of your Truck plus the Manufacturer's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of your trailer.

When do I need a CDL?

1. A Class A CDL License is required when the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Ratings (GCVWR) of the truck and trailer totals 26,001 or more provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
2. A Class B CDL License is required for any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.
3. A Class C CDL License is required for any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.

One of the most misunderstood parts of the above requirements has to do with trailers with a GVWR in excess of 10,000 pounds when the combined GVWR does not exceed 26,000 pounds. In this case a CDL is NOT required provided you are not placarded for hazardous materials. However individual states may impose a requirement that drivers in their states must have a CDL in this situation so you need to check the requirements in your state. It is also important to note that individual state CDL licensing requirements CAN NOT be applied to drivers from other states.

http://hotshotcarrier.com/CDL_License.php

 

[fordsbyjay]

Sounds to me like the cops in TN are butt holes.

 

[Telman2]

I won't pretend to know anything about this, but could the problem be a with a conflict between federal and state laws?

 

[RPM]

It's not that I don't believe Ron or Mike or what the scale guy said. From someone that has a CDL A, this just doesn't seem to add up to me I guess. The laws aren't always as clear as they would like you to believe they are when you're pulled over on the side of the road. I looked up some more information and came up with this and this seems to go towards what I was thinking. They seem to explain it and the law the best but did throw in the fact that some states can add requirments. If this were the case, Mike and his crew were being held hostage.


In order to determine if you need a CDL license, you need, you need to understand how the Gross Vehichle Weight Rating (GVWR) is determined. First, the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) for each vehicle is established by the truck and trailer manufacturers for their equipment. For licensing purposes, your combined GVWR is determined by adding the Manufacturer's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of your Truck plus the Manufacturer's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of your trailer.

When do I need a CDL?

1. A Class A CDL License is required when the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Ratings (GCVWR) of the truck and trailer totals 26,001 or more provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds.
2. A Class B CDL License is required for any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR.
3. A Class C CDL License is required for any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does not meet the definition of Class A or Class B, but is either designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, or is placarded for hazardous materials.

One of the most misunderstood parts of the above requirements has to do with trailers with a GVWR in excess of 10,000 pounds when the combined GVWR does not exceed 26,000 pounds. In this case a CDL is NOT required provided you are not placarded for hazardous materials. However individual states may impose a requirement that drivers in their states must have a CDL in this situation so you need to check the requirements in your state. It is also important to note that individual state CDL licensing requirements CAN NOT be applied to drivers from other states.

http://hotshotcarrier.com/CDL_License.php

This is not all there is to it. A lot depends on what you are hauling. Those big RV are not included, and they weigh a lot more.

 

[ford4ever]

Sounds like it's not fair to some people, I guess that's life! I guess it's all in the eyes of the beholder!

 

[T-Odd]

RPM"A tractor and or hay is for farm use and a farm is a business, so it would be commercial."

Still don't understand how some guy, that has a horse, and enough land to plant a garden for himself, and hunt for meat, is a business.

It's not like we're raising horses to sell, or growing enough food to sell. Dad's just about 100% self-sufficient. He occasionally has to go to town to get some milk and eggs, but IF I can get him some chickens, he'll only be needing milk, maybe some flour and cornmeal, or sugar.

I'm wanting to make some kind of tilapia pool or small catfish pond for him next... which makes me now wonder... since I had a bass boat once, and took friends fishing quite often... does that mean I was a commercial fisherman / tour guide business?

If ya ask me, this is just out of hand. A man can't be self-sufficient without being hounded by the government for more tax money because being a human being is now a business?

Sorry for the threadjack Ron, I know you want and need to know what to properly do to insure your business is 100% legal.

 

[RPM]

RPM"A tractor and or hay is for farm use and a farm is a business, so it would be commercial."


Sorry for the threadjack Ron, I know you want and need to know what to properly do to insure your business is 100% legal.

No problem, I agree with you 100%. Too much government interference, and they make it so damn complicated. I am not sure that guy I talked to at the scales really knew what was going on. I see these rigs on the hwy all the time, blowing past the weigh stations.