Engine oil and supplement?
- Thread starter RPM
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Mike
Well-Known Member
In my not-so-humble opinion, the Joe Gibbs BR oil is your best bet. Assuming you have built the engine with standard bearing clearances, the BR-30 is a good choice.
Only if you're running wide clearances. If not, the conventional HR-2 10W-30 will be just fine. There's really no reason to run higher viscosity oils, unless you have some wide bearing clearances or you have an air-cooled application.
The particular class the race car runs in is a class where you do not show your hand unless it becomes absolutely necessary. We would run dinosaur oil in it, whenever possible. If we needed to pick the car up a few hundredths, I would replace it with a synthetic. If we needed a couple more hundredths, I could replace it with a much thinner synthetic formulation. The car would prove, time and again there was power to be found in thinner, synthetics. My former employer owned an IHRA Pro Stock car. We had one of his big motors (for the life of me, I cannot recall if it was an 805 or an 812) on the dyno, running 25W-50 Pennzoil. After we ran it a few times to establish a solid baseline, we replaced the oil with a synthetic and on the first pull we found 13 HP.
A typical street engine is a horse of a different color, but it isn't unreasonable to expect a 3-4 HP increase. No, you're never going to feel 3-4 HP in the seat of your pants, but if you're looking for everything you can find, don't forget to look there.
Johnny
Member
Corley
New Member
Mike is probably very correct when building and keeping alive a high performance engine. But I've never ever seen "Joe Gibbs Hotrod Driven Oil" or even heard of it before, and wouldn't have a clue where to buy it at any cost. Plus, it's not a fit for me on my budget...
I contend that not everyone is building up a high-pro motor, and in that case some of these rather expensive and elusive solutions may not be needed. If you are as cheap as me, or if like me, you've had your foray into high performance and now just want to go with an affordable half worn out low $ used engine that will easily smoke the tires off a 'T' anyway, then there are other oil alternatives. Sure, you still need to be concerned about the fact that it's a flat tappet engine, and oils have changed over time. However, unless we've all been duped by the ZDDP additive makers, we do need to account for the need for some help if running the cheapest oil on the shelf in your older engine. The makers of STP claim that their product has enough ZDDP to do the job, and of course it also has that clinging ability that lasts for months. Since the most wear an engine sees in normal use is at startup after sitting for a while, I contend that STP makes good sense in this case.
Hi performance engines have their place, and if money is no object I say go for it. However, having been there and done that, I can assure you that building a high performance engine is not for the faint of heart, and unless you are really dialed in, you will make as many or more mistakes as you will do things right. Those mistakes == $ down the tubes. Plus, you are looking at a lower life than a stock engine, more potential cooling issues, less drivability comfort, higher breakage, and most of all a MUCH higher cost with your highpro engine, even when you do it all right first time (which is not very likely). Not to mention more tickets when you just can't keep your big fat foot out of it. For myself, I don't see any real requirement (other than bragging rights) for a high performance engine in a T bucket, and in fact I think there is a very strong case against them. If you want it to look high performance, that is one thing, but actually building it high performance doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't really even need the rumpty rump sound to be happy!
All that said, a decent mid to low miles used engine is a great buy, and will really help out the budget. Just add on the apearance items and run'er. And, if it happens to have flat tappets, give it a little protection with some STP and you are good to go on a poor man's budget. Do change that oil and filter often, and you will be fine.
Just one old man's humble opinion,
Corley
I contend that not everyone is building up a high-pro motor, and in that case some of these rather expensive and elusive solutions may not be needed. If you are as cheap as me, or if like me, you've had your foray into high performance and now just want to go with an affordable half worn out low $ used engine that will easily smoke the tires off a 'T' anyway, then there are other oil alternatives. Sure, you still need to be concerned about the fact that it's a flat tappet engine, and oils have changed over time. However, unless we've all been duped by the ZDDP additive makers, we do need to account for the need for some help if running the cheapest oil on the shelf in your older engine. The makers of STP claim that their product has enough ZDDP to do the job, and of course it also has that clinging ability that lasts for months. Since the most wear an engine sees in normal use is at startup after sitting for a while, I contend that STP makes good sense in this case.
Hi performance engines have their place, and if money is no object I say go for it. However, having been there and done that, I can assure you that building a high performance engine is not for the faint of heart, and unless you are really dialed in, you will make as many or more mistakes as you will do things right. Those mistakes == $ down the tubes. Plus, you are looking at a lower life than a stock engine, more potential cooling issues, less drivability comfort, higher breakage, and most of all a MUCH higher cost with your highpro engine, even when you do it all right first time (which is not very likely). Not to mention more tickets when you just can't keep your big fat foot out of it. For myself, I don't see any real requirement (other than bragging rights) for a high performance engine in a T bucket, and in fact I think there is a very strong case against them. If you want it to look high performance, that is one thing, but actually building it high performance doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't really even need the rumpty rump sound to be happy!
All that said, a decent mid to low miles used engine is a great buy, and will really help out the budget. Just add on the apearance items and run'er. And, if it happens to have flat tappets, give it a little protection with some STP and you are good to go on a poor man's budget. Do change that oil and filter often, and you will be fine.
Just one old man's humble opinion,
Corley
Mike
Well-Known Member
You'll have to look around, to see if you have a local distributor. It's available from Gibbs, if all else fails.
Dry startups are, without a doubt, some of the toughest moments any engine will ever go through. But actually, the most aggressive wear is those first 15-20 minutes with fresh rings, fresh bearings, fresh camshaft and fresh lifters. Which is why oil changes are recommended within the first few miles of running on a new engine.
And it's not necessarily the cheapest oil on the shelf that will catch you up. Nearly all oils are boasting longer change intervals, which means those oils have higher detergent levels. And it's the detergent properties that get you. You can use all of the ZDDP additives in the world with these oils, but it really makes no difference. The zinc you are wanting to remain in high load ares is being flushed away from those areas by the higher detergent levels in the oils. Which part of the reason the Gibbs oil carries a stiffer price tag. Because they have formulated the oil to have an adequate level of detergent necessary for regularly-driven street engines, without it being so high that the zinc and phosphorous end up providing no benefit, as well as providing good wetting characteristics.
Frankly, if I had a 50,000 mile engine with a hydraulic, flat tappet cam/lifter combination and a set of tired, old, stock valve springs, I wouldn't give ZDDP a second thought. There simply isn't going to be enough spring load to create a problem. But by the same token, if I were lining up parts for a brand-new, solid, flat tappet cam/lifter combination, proper oil would be on my shopping list, along with a set of lifters with an EDM port on the lifter face, to provide additional oil to the lifter/lobe interface.
As for STP, I have found it to be an incredible product for gluing bits of valve seal and broken, nylon timing gear teeth to the bottom of the pan, keeping them out of the oil pump. :winkn:
Chief-T
Member
I just ordered a case of Joe Gibbs HR 10w-30 from Amazon. com for $96.00 with free shipping. Best price I could find on the net.
Ted Brown
Member
Is that a 24 case? or half a case? 12 I know there used to always be, 24 in a case...???
Chief-T
Member
Ted, It's the modern case of 12 plastic quart bottles. Comes to $8.00 a Qt.
Keeper
Active Member
In the big picture of things, 8 a qt or roughly $50 an oil change (with filter) is small potatoes.
I have done more reading on the subject of flat tappet cam break in then I care to remember. Biggest problem I have come across is everyones opinion is different. Ask the engine builder, they tell you one thing, the cam manufacturer another and on and on and on. If you want a long night of tech jargon hit bob is the oil guys site. After a couple hours your head will be splitting!
After spending $2000+ for the engine, another $100 for super oil/break in lube/filter isn't going to hurt. But I can guarantee that if I went cheap that $$ I saved would cost me $100's more in the end.
I have done more reading on the subject of flat tappet cam break in then I care to remember. Biggest problem I have come across is everyones opinion is different. Ask the engine builder, they tell you one thing, the cam manufacturer another and on and on and on. If you want a long night of tech jargon hit bob is the oil guys site. After a couple hours your head will be splitting!
After spending $2000+ for the engine, another $100 for super oil/break in lube/filter isn't going to hurt. But I can guarantee that if I went cheap that $$ I saved would cost me $100's more in the end.
Mike
Well-Known Member
You do realize that is why the OEMs have gone to roller cams? Everyone can obfuscate the facts all they want with statements about how the roller lifters are reducing friction and freeing up horsepower (Aye. Right.), but the truth of the matter is there was no easier way to provide the catalytic converter life established by none other than the Environmental Protection Agency. All OEMs must now meet a 150,000 mile life standard on their catalytic converters. And if you are running oil with zinc and phosphorous, both of those elements can end up in exhaust gases,, which ultimately coat the catalyst and render it ineffective. So the OEMs informed the oil companies the zinc and phosphorous had to go.
And look at all the rationalizations that have occurred since. The majority of people believe they are paying more for internal engine components, because of all the horsepower those components free up. And so they will rush out the door to spend three times the money for a roller cam and lifter kit. Why should they spend a couple extra dollars per quart for oil when they can spend an extra $300 on their cam and lifters?
Riddle me this - if the roller bearings in those 16 lifters can free up so much friction-loss horsepower, then why are we not running engines with roller main and rod bearings? (Yes, I am aware a Fuel team has experimented with roller bearings.) We've finally ramped valve spring loads up so high that roller cam bearings have become necessary, so why bother with friction-loss on the crankpin?
And look at all the rationalizations that have occurred since. The majority of people believe they are paying more for internal engine components, because of all the horsepower those components free up. And so they will rush out the door to spend three times the money for a roller cam and lifter kit. Why should they spend a couple extra dollars per quart for oil when they can spend an extra $300 on their cam and lifters?
Riddle me this - if the roller bearings in those 16 lifters can free up so much friction-loss horsepower, then why are we not running engines with roller main and rod bearings? (Yes, I am aware a Fuel team has experimented with roller bearings.) We've finally ramped valve spring loads up so high that roller cam bearings have become necessary, so why bother with friction-loss on the crankpin?
Ted Brown
Member
You are right about using a FULL roller engine, every bearing in the engine, and have them all dry lubed also, that would solve the friction problem, now you could run a very this cooling fluid, but it all just boils down to GREEN stuff, and if you had enough of that GREEN stuff, there would not be any problem with any of this... Yes for sure I am going to run a totally STOCK engine and exhaust system... Then make the great cover-up, to make the engine LOOK like a wild thing, driving down the street, no one will be the wiser, and any stock engine will haul the mail in any light weight T Bucket or Roadster... Now, if you have a hood, that makes for a cheap and very easy car to build, compared to an open engine.
Screaming Metal
Active Member
<br> <br>It helps with the lubrication. Adding trans fluid is about the same as adding some Riselone to your oil. Keeps things clean and lubed, also keeps seals from getting hard! Also keeps varnish from forming.<div><br><br>
</div>
Screaming Metal
Active Member
Joe Gibbs and Brad Penn oils are greats oils.....so is Royal Purple. Its funny Since they know we know they took out the Zddp.....they've canned the additives, so you can put it back in.
The Diesel oils do have a healthier 'Film strength', the ability of a thin film to cling and lubricate a surface. Me, personally, I run Valvoline Racing motor oils, period, with a special additive. I make a coctail, of sorts, of 2 different oils, but Valvoline makes them, then I add a additive, stir, then pour in. I like my oil thicker than normal, to fight heat and wear. The oil they run these days is too thin for maximum lubricity.
Yes, it does work....having the 10W-30, in a good, tight bearing'ed motor, med. pressure pump......then when the bearing clearance starts to open up, to keep everything the same, you gotta run heavier oil, to get your pressure back at the mains and rods. The hotter the motor runs, the heavier the oil. They try to side step this problem some by running things with oil coolers, more oil capacity, yada, yada. Also, the dist. shafts aren't as good as they used to be, and pumps have started twisting shafts off, loosing pressure totally. The solution? Run a thin oil.......so flys in the 10W-30'S.
It works.....its kinda a band-aid in my opinion......its just my 2 cents out there on the table. Heavier oil breaks down less. BUT, it takes power to pump it. Got good clevite bearings and a good pump, no problem.
Run what you feel is comfortable. Most motors that call for a 10W-30 can run a 20W-50 just fine, with no ill effects. And get better bearing wear, making your motor last longer between bearing/ring changes.
Motors that turn on up there are gonna have looser mains and rods....so to cushion the power strokes of the motor, if your not running a big pump.....you gotta have a oil that'll take the pounding.
Its all in the setup, what you want to run and what you can afford........
The Diesel oils do have a healthier 'Film strength', the ability of a thin film to cling and lubricate a surface. Me, personally, I run Valvoline Racing motor oils, period, with a special additive. I make a coctail, of sorts, of 2 different oils, but Valvoline makes them, then I add a additive, stir, then pour in. I like my oil thicker than normal, to fight heat and wear. The oil they run these days is too thin for maximum lubricity.
Yes, it does work....having the 10W-30, in a good, tight bearing'ed motor, med. pressure pump......then when the bearing clearance starts to open up, to keep everything the same, you gotta run heavier oil, to get your pressure back at the mains and rods. The hotter the motor runs, the heavier the oil. They try to side step this problem some by running things with oil coolers, more oil capacity, yada, yada. Also, the dist. shafts aren't as good as they used to be, and pumps have started twisting shafts off, loosing pressure totally. The solution? Run a thin oil.......so flys in the 10W-30'S.
It works.....its kinda a band-aid in my opinion......its just my 2 cents out there on the table. Heavier oil breaks down less. BUT, it takes power to pump it. Got good clevite bearings and a good pump, no problem.
Run what you feel is comfortable. Most motors that call for a 10W-30 can run a 20W-50 just fine, with no ill effects. And get better bearing wear, making your motor last longer between bearing/ring changes.
Motors that turn on up there are gonna have looser mains and rods....so to cushion the power strokes of the motor, if your not running a big pump.....you gotta have a oil that'll take the pounding.
Its all in the setup, what you want to run and what you can afford........
I have an 88 Bronco II and a 93 F150, 302, both have had diets of Castrol 20-50 year round since new, both have over 290,000 miles with no knocks or smoke. I like to think the thickness helps the oil stay in place longer between starts. Also Comp Cams and Amsoil are advertising Zddp oils for those in the know.
Corley
New Member
And the black art of oils continues... I've always heard/read that thicker oils will pound out easier than thinner oils, because the molecules tend to cling to each other rather than the metal when extreme forces are exherted upon them. Even so, I've always run 20-50 in older engines with no issues at all. I've also read that while 10-30 and 20-50 are fine, 10-40 is very bad stuff, due to some formulation issue that escapes me right now. Some people love synthetics, some hate them. I like STP and typical 10-30 or 20-50 with STP, but some hate STP. (I must admit to not liking to work on an engine that runs it because it leaves such a sticky / slick surface that is hard to wash off.) Some people seem to like running some ATF in their engine oil, which seems really odd to me! My point is, whatever you run, someone is going to hate it, and have a "better" solution, and admittedly, they may be right for their particular case.
What I DO know is that I have over 25 engines here that I regularly change oils in, and it gets really expensive when you add it up. Therefore, I use what's recomended by the majority of the manufacturers, and believe I don't need to buy super expensive stuff for these engines to survive, and this has proven to be true. I DO run synthetic in the new 'Vette and the Lexus, but other than that I run all conventional oil, and anything with more than 75K or so gets a hit of STP as well. The tractors all run Delo, 'cause it's cheap and has worked very well in them.
When I built the '65 Jag. Mark II about 30 years ago (put a small block Chebbie in it), the used engine had about 140k on it at the time. It now has over 300k on it, never been apart, doesn't use oil or have any bad noises, but does leak a little out the front seal. I've run 10-30 and STP in the winters months, and 20-40 with STP in the summer months all that time with no issues. When I stick my little pinky in the drain hole to check for sludge, I get NONE. What I'm doing just can't be all bad... Notice I didn't mention oil brand? That's because I buy whatever name brand is the cheapest, which lately is usually Chevron. The most important thing with oil is to change it regularly (I do so at 3k miles). One thing I do is to ALWAYS change the filter when changing the oil.
Now for the horror story. I bought a '99 Chevy Astro van a few years back with about 80k on it. The oil looked terrible, but the price of the van was cheap so I bought it. In a fit of lunacy, I decided to clean some of the crud out of the engine when I changed the oil, and added a bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil (on the recommndation of a friend.) I ran the engine for about 10 minutes at idle to warm it up good before draining the oil, and by the time I was ready to drain it, it was knocking. Upon tear down, I found a bad main and two bad rod inserts, and a scored crank. I won't be using Marvel Mystery Oil in the future. (Come to think of it, that stuff looks a lot like ATF! I wonder...) I know that the real problem was a lack of maintenece prior to my buying it, but you just can't wash away many miles of neglect with Marvel Mystery Oil.
Just my experiences...
CB
PS For you Red Line and Amsoil guys, did you know that they don't even submit their oils for API certification? Read it on the internet, so it's got to be true!
What I DO know is that I have over 25 engines here that I regularly change oils in, and it gets really expensive when you add it up. Therefore, I use what's recomended by the majority of the manufacturers, and believe I don't need to buy super expensive stuff for these engines to survive, and this has proven to be true. I DO run synthetic in the new 'Vette and the Lexus, but other than that I run all conventional oil, and anything with more than 75K or so gets a hit of STP as well. The tractors all run Delo, 'cause it's cheap and has worked very well in them.
When I built the '65 Jag. Mark II about 30 years ago (put a small block Chebbie in it), the used engine had about 140k on it at the time. It now has over 300k on it, never been apart, doesn't use oil or have any bad noises, but does leak a little out the front seal. I've run 10-30 and STP in the winters months, and 20-40 with STP in the summer months all that time with no issues. When I stick my little pinky in the drain hole to check for sludge, I get NONE. What I'm doing just can't be all bad... Notice I didn't mention oil brand? That's because I buy whatever name brand is the cheapest, which lately is usually Chevron. The most important thing with oil is to change it regularly (I do so at 3k miles). One thing I do is to ALWAYS change the filter when changing the oil.
Now for the horror story. I bought a '99 Chevy Astro van a few years back with about 80k on it. The oil looked terrible, but the price of the van was cheap so I bought it. In a fit of lunacy, I decided to clean some of the crud out of the engine when I changed the oil, and added a bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil (on the recommndation of a friend.) I ran the engine for about 10 minutes at idle to warm it up good before draining the oil, and by the time I was ready to drain it, it was knocking. Upon tear down, I found a bad main and two bad rod inserts, and a scored crank. I won't be using Marvel Mystery Oil in the future. (Come to think of it, that stuff looks a lot like ATF! I wonder...) I know that the real problem was a lack of maintenece prior to my buying it, but you just can't wash away many miles of neglect with Marvel Mystery Oil.
Just my experiences...
CB
PS For you Red Line and Amsoil guys, did you know that they don't even submit their oils for API certification? Read it on the internet, so it's got to be true!
Screaming Metal
Active Member
----What I DO know is that I have over 25 engines here that I regularly change oils in, and it gets really expensive when you add it up.----
Thats the reason why I run all my used oil thru a oil scrubbing system, then pour it into the tank of my diesel truck! Helps kick my fuel milage up and lubricates my IP pimp and injectors.....
I run 20W-50 in most cars, 10W30 in lawnmowers and motorcycles, most racing stuff, 20w50/50 racing oils, 15w40/15w50 in the diesels.
if its old and needs slack taken up some....use STP. Wanna make it live thru rough treatment, use Lucas Engine oil stabalizer. Additive for heat? STP or Lucas oil stabalizer
Stay away from the snake oils! The Amalite CD-2 really works for slowing oil past rings. (Old Farm Tractor!) Riselone is great for keeping the inside of your motor clean! Use it on a older motor....I guarantee the pump screen clogged inside of 10 to 15 minutes. A little diesel added to your oil is alot less aggressive! Uncle Sams research talking there!
The cleaners and medics, don't use them unless you know how to use them!
Synthetics are good for running long periods between changes on motors that have tight tolerances. I really like synth-blends!
Screaming Metal
Active Member
WTH???????????? Sorry folks, new computer.......
Screaming Metal
Active Member
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