Here to learn? or just to show off nice work?

[Ted Brown]

Thanks Al for your views on your build, that should be a fun ride when finished... You said...


I want to sit in my T, I also want to have some steel around me, how about LED lights too, and a collapsible steering column, maybe fuel injection and a fuel cell, a stretched body with adjustable seats, steering column and instrument pod, power steering and brakes and most of all IFS. I want a street rod that is very drivable, rides well with decent handling and is reasonably fast, but still gets great mileage and did not totally blow the retirement account.

I would like to put in my 2 cents in on some of these issues or choices in building a Rod... Not that your's are at all wrong, just different...
First is the statement that the T type rod is the cheapest rod to build... That is not true, because one now has to put a complete chassis and body works together... Whereas if you start with a stock factory car and make changes to that unit, it is for sure a cheaper rod in the end... So, with that said, we are now talking about a Horse of a different color... A hand crafted, custom car, built from scratch... This is a completely different type of project, and it now takes different engineering, design and craftsman skills, not as needed, when building a custom rod, from a factory car...

You say you want to sit IN your T, I take it you think other T owners sit ON their Ts. I think sitting ON a car/vehicle more like a go-kart or motorcycle, snow mobile, etc. Now; IF you are inside a roll-cage, that again is a horse of another color... Like drag race or any race car, the body is there for wind effect and to hold paint and give an overall impression of an inclosed car/body... In all reality, in a crash that is absolutely no protection and could end up cutting the driver worse than no body at all... These type of race chassis depend on roll cages and safety nets, for total (outside)protection... Let's face it, that is a totally different look also, not the look that we here are wanting to drive... I built a T Bucket for the look, mainly, at first, and was "at first" satisfied/put up with, the many discomforts that came with owning that "look"... Vanity is a powerful thing... We even lie about it to ourselves and other's as well, Oh yes it rides great! for a buck board, or unloaded lumber wagon, that is... Yeah sure, it also stops and steers great too. Well for something that was hand made??? Now all those things, after driving any length of time and over many miles of different types of roads, MUST !!! CHANGE !!! if you want to continue to drive your favorite fun ride a lot more miles and to far away places... We may be getting older in the body, but our minds are hard to change as far as the looks go. How to get it all and keep the right look is now a trick that takes a bit more thinking and time, moving parts all around to make them work differently... I myself (for my own car) don't like to use too much late model "looking" parts on my T Bucket, like tilt steering wheels, unless you can make it look older, more like what the old T's had... It can be done if you really need a moveable steering column and wheel...
Nothing wrong in using LED light bulbs, in older looking lights... Power steering on these light weight cars is not needed, and besides you lose all the feel of the road with many types of power units, and you should try and get into the habit of NOT turning the wheels when the car is not rolling, as this puts a ton of stress on ALL the steering links and frame (box) mount as well... Power steering makes this a lot worse and easy to do, plus you now have a pump you have to maintain and drive with the engine... IFS is another horse altogether, one that needs to be in a barn, covered up, and that is just not a T Bucket look I care for (on my own personal car) fine for someone else's ride, just not mine... Let's face it again, power costs! In lower fuel mileage... Just how fast do you want to go?? How much do you want to spend?? A stock 4 cyl. engine in a light weight car will run the pants off a bigger V8 in a heavier car and get better mileage along the way... BUT! A 4 cyl. engine, out in the open, leaves something to be desired in the looks department, for a T Bucket, a car with a hood is again another horse... Not a T Bucket. A real T Bucket fan, I yam, I yam

 

[Corley]

Ted,

I need to hijack your thread for just a moment, I hope that's OK by you. I wanted to tell you that there are others out there with the droppy eye lid issue, and wish you a speedy recovery from that surgery. I've had two surgeries for that problem (I have Myasthina Gravis, so my eyes and forhead tend to droop as well), and I know how frustraighting it can be trying to hold your eye lid up while driving or computing or whatever, so I know you will be very happy with the results if the surgon didn't remove too much so you can no longer fully close your eyes. Anyway, Good luck on a speedy recovery!

Hijack subsides... Carrying on with descusion:

What is conceived as a safety issue to one may not be a safety issue to others at all. Given the inherent exposure to harm these rides inherently present, one can get very lax about safety though, and that's a bad thing. I've had to learn not to harp on safety issues and bad engineering or I get stomped on by others. Just mention them once or twice, then a reminder from time to time, but that's it. Now imagine coming from a background like Oldrotorflap, that is obvoiously aviation, where safety is paramount! It must drive him mad at times, but we all try to keep it in check to whatever degree we can. Watch this:

"Running radious rods on both axles is very bad design due to the incredible stresses it puts on suspension parts and the frame. Chester mentions it in his book and Tex Smith stresses in his book. It is bad with a solid front axle, and especially bad with a tubular axle. It's bad design for safety, and simply put, bad engineering"

I know you don't agree with that statement Ted, and I know many others don't. Yet it's a very true statement as far as I'm concerned. You point out that you've done it that way for 300 years, how could it be wrong. To that I only can comment, you've unnessesarily risked life and lib for 300 years.

The point is, I feel strongly on this one, and so do you. However, I've learned that people don't want to hear it. Therefore, as I said, I will only mention it now on rare occations. ( Probably there will be 20 people jump on that statement now, but guys, it's an example of the kind of statements that encite the troops to riot. I'm not arguing that point in this forum topic, it's to show that we need to be sensitive to what we write and how it's perceived by others. Too many "you are doing it wrong" entries makes Jack a dull boy.) JMHO, and I am sorry if I offended anyone!

Corley

PS Upon reread, I see two inherent's in one sentence. Oh well, perhaps you can forgive me that since I'm old and senile... Hey, they said on TV this am that you were supposed to become better at spelling as you age. I must not be aging since I'm not getting any better at spelling!

 

[Gerry]

Got to jump in here.
I had a dream. Yeh right
A T Bucket just the way i wanted it. I could see it in my mind, very detailed and with all the things I ever wanted to see on a Bucket.
To my mind a T is probably the MOST vulnerable of 4 wheeled vehicles you will ever see on the road. Lets look at the facts. In most cases a Fibre glass body on a BASIC chassis. No front, rear or side protection to speak of. So we are down to the build quality (read engineering, here) to do the best we can to make us safe. A T for me has to look right, stand right and glow when you look at it .
It is a meld of art and engineering and to that end will never be the safest thing on the road. I would like to mention here the number of recalls on Asian produced cars over the last 12 months with concerns about, brakes, steering and fuel fires.
So where are we now.?

This is a place where we can offer examples, advice and explain how to do things the way we think it should be done. As my Dad always said... you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

I see no logical reason for not exploring things like air bags, collapsible columns etc, but I do wonder how many people do a regular 'nut check' on their cars. Its a basic of any race team and should be basic maintenance of any T.

If I wanted a safe ride I would have put my money in to a Saab- which have the highest survivability rate of any car (last figs I looked at). My choice was a T with all the things it offers.
In the end we can not be responsible for anyone else, we can only offer advise and help.

I repeat.
Would I be happy for my wife to take the T out and return safely. That is my Criteria

Gerry

 

[Allen]

I've made this comment before. I see a changing of a guard here. Old street rodders and habits die hard, but there's other ways of doing things and the looks of street rods are changing. I really don't think any of the younger people would know who Tex Smith was. I had known and met the man, but his builds and things that he did, and in the past, others have done, just make street rodding more exciting for the innovation of new ideas. For young street rodders, I personally welcome a new era. Yes, I love the old look, but look forward to exciting and new ideas from the younger generations. As far as making statements that are absolute, try and tell that to a hot rodder that's been driving his car for- 50 years. Many different ways to do things. And still have them work safely and function okay, maybe not perfect, but okay.

 

[Corley]

OK Gerry, now you have officially depressed me! You said "It is a meld of art and engineering". Yeah, YOUR T is art and engineering, mine is just a pile of parts, and going to stay that way until this Model A project is finished. Spent today sand blasting body parts, only to turn what looked like good metal into Swiss cheese, meaning that job just got a lot bigger.

You should feel ashamed making an old man feel bad! (Only kidding!!!)

Corley

 

[Differen T]

Thanks Al for your views on your build, that should be a fun ride when finished... You said...

I want to sit in my T, I also want to have some steel around me, how about LED lights too, and a collapsible steering column, maybe fuel injection and a fuel cell, a stretched body with adjustable seats, steering column and instrument pod, power steering and brakes and most of all IFS. I want a street rod that is very drivable, rides well with decent handling and is reasonably fast, but still gets great mileage and did not totally blow the retirement account.

I would like to put in my 2 cents in on some of these issues or choices in building a Rod... Not that your's are at all wrong, just different...
First is the statement that the T type rod is the cheapest rod to build... That is not true, because one now has to put a complete chassis and body works together... Whereas if you start with a stock factory car and make changes to that unit, it is for sure a cheaper rod in the end... So, with that said, we are now talking about a Horse of a different color... A hand crafted, custom car, built from scratch... This is a completely different type of project, and it now takes different engineering, design and craftsman skills, not as needed, when building a custom rod, from a factory car...

You say you want to sit IN your T, I take it you think other T owners sit ON their Ts. I think sitting ON a car/vehicle more like a go-kart or motorcycle, snow mobile, etc. Now; IF you are inside a roll-cage, that again is a horse of another color... Like drag race or any race car, the body is there for wind effect and to hold paint and give an overall impression of an inclosed car/body... In all reality, in a crash that is absolutely no protection and could end up cutting the driver worse than no body at all... These type of race chassis depend on roll cages and safety nets, for total (outside)protection... Let's face it, that is a totally different look also, not the look that we here are wanting to drive... I built a T Bucket for the look, mainly, at first, and was "at first" satisfied/put up with, the many discomforts that came with owning that "look"... Vanity is a powerful thing... We even lie about it to ourselves and other's as well, Oh yes it rides great! for a buck board, or unloaded lumber wagon, that is... Yeah sure, it also stops and steers great too. Well for something that was hand made??? Now all those things, after driving any length of time and over many miles of different types of roads, MUST !!! CHANGE !!! if you want to continue to drive your favorite fun ride a lot more miles and to far away places... We may be getting older in the body, but our minds are hard to change as far as the looks go. How to get it all and keep the right look is now a trick that takes a bit more thinking and time, moving parts all around to make them work differently... I myself (for my own car) don't like to use too much late model "looking" parts on my T Bucket, like tilt steering wheels, unless you can make it look older, more like what the old T's had... It can be done if you really need a moveable steering column and wheel...
Nothing wrong in using LED light bulbs, in older looking lights... Power steering on these light weight cars is not needed, and besides you lose all the feel of the road with many types of power units, and you should try and get into the habit of NOT turning the wheels when the car is not rolling, as this puts a ton of stress on ALL the steering links and frame (box) mount as well... Power steering makes this a lot worse and easy to do, plus you now have a pump you have to maintain and drive with the engine... IFS is another horse altogether, one that needs to be in a barn, covered up, and that is just not a T Bucket look I care for (on my own personal car) fine for someone else's ride, just not mine... Let's face it again, power costs! In lower fuel mileage... Just how fast do you want to go?? How much do you want to spend?? A stock 4 cyl. engine in a light weight car will run the pants off a bigger V8 in a heavier car and get better mileage along the way... BUT! A 4 cyl. engine, out in the open, leaves something to be desired in the looks department, for a T Bucket, a car with a hood is again another horse... Not a T Bucket. A real T Bucket fan, I yam, I yam

I said a T bucket is the least expensive way to build a "Street Rod" and yes a street rod requires a lot more skills than bolting parts on a factory vehicle. The rodders who post here have these special talents and can apply them to get the look that they want. Maybe you can buy frame cars that are reasonably priced and rust free on the left coast, but here in the east rust buckets cost way too much, even before you start the project. I have only been in a couple of Ts and I felt like I was sitting on a buckboard .Not the feel I want from a fun car. I bought a new 70 1/2 Z28 back in the day, 350/360 HP, quick ratio PS, PB, 3.73 and posi and I've been hooked ever since. A few years later I took this experience late model stock car racing and finally to asphalt modifieds (2550 lbs, 600 HP and power steering). Besides, my brother has a Z06 and I think for 10% of his cost I can give him a good run.

I guess because I was born a left handed, breech baby, I've always been one step ahead or behind. It's up to each individual poster to decide if he is a Spartan or an Athenian.

Al

 

[Ted Brown]

My friend Corley is right about radius rods as mounted like Tex and I mounted them in the good old days, before Jim at Pete and Jake's came to making good 4 bar bushings... Now that is an axle saver for sure, why? because they allow for enough movement, when ever the axle or the body leans one way or another, not like the old solid clevises which allowed no movement and tried to twist the ft. axle or rear end housing brackets out of the housing... MORE rubber bushings are needed in a rod build, especially if you want a great ride... Speaking of which, every rod owner that I have ever given a ride in my T Bucket was very surprised with the soft but firm feeling ride that I was able to achieve with my own suspension system... Especially other T Bucket owner's... I used to love taking them down a real bumpy road at normal speeds and no bad handling at all... So, you make make it work if you put your mind to it... and yes I love all the new ideas from the younger folks...

 

[Old Rotor Flap]

Corley introduced it and Ted added substance to the axle and radius rod ..... ah, issue - issue may not be the best choice of words but Win The Future.

Over the years, I've seen pictures of countless rods with tube and I-beam axles and hairpin radius rods. From about the second day forward, I've pictured the single rod end (some really cheap ones too) and that short piece to threaded tube welded to the hairpin as being subjected to an incerdible amount of stress. If I haven't heard of many or any failures may be because: the deisgn is OK, analysis of failure is not investigated, analysis doesn't occur and therefore isn't published or maybe I just don't get out much.

Were FEA (Finite Element Analysis) applied to these componemts I would either be comforted to a degree or it might scare the hell out of the rod world.

I have a tube front axle. It had forged ends welded to the center tube. It is not a casting. I have four bars with urethane busing on one end and a rod end on the other mounted in bat wings fabricated out of A-36 and 4130. I can say with confidence I have had no problems in the serveral feet these components have been carried around the garage. That's right, I can't speak from experience. The project almost qualifies as garage potato by now.

In addition to Sweets, check out woodwardsteerng.com for collapsible steering columns and and an engine bay collapsible section.

 

[Allen]

The -TRUTH IS --FACT--poor design and fabrication are just that!!. --old or new work, --Wrong- actions form bad habits, and habits decide character, simple as that!

 

[Rick]

The -TRUTH IS --FACT--poor design and fabrication are just that!!. --old or new work, --Wrong- actions form bad habits, and habits decide character, simple as that!

And if you or the inocent people around you live or die.

 

[Corley]

ORF,

You said "Were FEA (Finite Element Analysis) applied to these componemts I would either be comforted to a degree or it might scare the hell out of the rod world." My guess is neither. The reason being, people tend to believe what they want to believe, often in spite of the facts. (Just ask Donald Trump. HA!)

Glad to hear your parts have not failed, sorry to hear they are residing in a situation like mine. (Storage) I guess we need to get off our butts and make them a part of a running moving T bucket! DOWN WITH LAZYNESS!

Ted old buddy, (and I really do mean that with all respect due),

I think that rubber bushed 4 bar ends on your hairpins are a very good start. and will allow some cushioning. They don't really address the basic problem. My opinion.

See how easy it is to get sucked into a response when you are passionate about something? Human nature says we must justify our position, even at the expense of decorum, politeness, and friendship... That fact, not the example itself, was more to my point. We all just need to be careful about criticizing others work/ideas. Outright mistakes, yes point them out. Opinions, well, we all have them. and as ORF points out, in the absence of facts, we have opinion and speculation.

'nuff said...

Corley

PS I ain't showin' off nuthin', 'cause I ain't got nuthin' to show off but this idle brain, and that ain't show off material!

 

[GreggDaniels]

I've saved two Street Rodder issues, one a T issue from 1984 and another a Super "T" Issue from 1980. The latter has great articles on how to build a frame, suspension both front and rear, wooding, wiring, wipers if one so desires and a four page article on Ackerman angles. I subscribed to that magazine regularly for years but as time went on the "How to Build" articles became nothing more than articles on how to buy outrageously priced parts from their advertisers. I haven't even opened a Street Rodder magazine for 10 years now. I never thought I could build a better car but I knew I could build a cheaper one. By my best guesses, LOL when I'm done I'll still have less than 10k into it. I came to this forum to learn. As someone mentioned here if this forum had been around 16 years ago I would have done some things differently. I have made some changes to my car both for comfort and for safety based on tips from this forum. I only became a member because guests are not allowed to view pictures and links, and as we all know a picture is worth a thousand words. Having never built a car before I really don't have a lot to offer except opinions and I don't like to spit them out very often. I also like to look at what others are building and if they are here only to show off then bring it on you have my blessing. I will enjoy all build and show pictures. I think there's room for both those who want to learn and for those who already have something to show off.

 

[Youngster]

I'd like to address the "Show Off" issue. I don't like the negative sound of that term. When I post on here it's to offer my way of doing something, not to show off. I don't know it all by any means and I don't pretend to. I've been doing this for a good many years. Along the way there where those who helped me develope and build my cars to be functional and enjoyable as well as safe to drive anywhere at any time. As I read the postings on here I try to look at the subject from the writers point of view. Sometimes I agree sometimes I don't but if I don't have something construtive to say I don't say anything at all. There are a great many talented builders on this site and I thank them all for what I've learned from them. I would hope none of them ever quit "Showing Off".

Ron

 

[Ted Brown]

I also love to see what people do, like you say, pics say so much more than words can ever express, just how would you word a certain LOOK??? I feel a LOOK is an inside feeling, all of one person's inner likes and loves... One man's treasure is another man's junk... Kinda like Wives, you don't know them till you have driven them many miles... If they hold up through/over many very rough roads, that speaks volumes... More than simple words can ever say... They either have it, or they don't, to each his own. Let's just hope they stay together

 

[Gerry]

OK Gerry, now you have officially depressed me! You said "It is a meld of art and engineering". Yeah, YOUR T is art and engineering, mine is just a pile of parts, and going to stay that way until this Model A project is finished. Spent today sand blasting body parts, only to turn what looked like good metal into Swiss cheese, meaning that job just got a lot bigger.

You should feel ashamed making an old man feel bad! (Only kidding!!!)

Corley

corley
All Ts are a work of art. Better than 4 splodges of paint on a canvas that sells for 100s of thousands of dollars. Turning swiss cheese into a straight and shiny body is a work of art in itself.
Gerry
PS We are both old men buddy

 

[GreggDaniels]

I should clarify a bit. When I used the term "show off" it was not meant in the sense of someone bragging but more in the lines of someone showcasing their ride whether it be in the form of build pictures or simply showing what they have built or purchased. We all take pride in our cars whether it's a finished show car or a bare frame in rust sitting in the corner of the garage so I didn't mean for it to be taken in a negative way nor did I mean it in a negative way. I love these little cars in any way, shape or color and the more I see the more I want to see.

 

[Mike]

I guess I was equating "showing off" with merely "showing", too. So Ron, you just keep right on showing your examples. :nod:

 

[nolimits]

I know I'm late to this post... But I think Mr.Ted should have let y'all know this post was about ME !!!!

I know this is a old post... But I wouldn't want anyone thinking he was pointing at anyone here... Again It was me.. He didn't name any names.. But also made this same post on another site about me... He didn't like, Or think I was building MY motor mounts RIGHT... Now all this got HIM upset Because I didn't do what HE said to do... We all build our cars different.. That's the great part about Living in the USA....We can do that... As far as my Motor mounts... I can post MANY after market Mounts that ARE not the way Mr.Ted does things.. To get mad at me and post this same crap on each fourm he is a member on is VERY SAD... But no big deal Teddy... I didn't see this post until today.. In one way I was surprized.. In another way.. I really wasn't.. I hate to bring up old post.. But I think everyone should know WHY you did this.. Again.. Very sad..It's sad that you would cut down someone that takes the time to post.... As far as me looking for a pat on the back...Your wrong... I did past that point MANY years ago..... Now if YOU really want to know why I only post pictures... It's because of people like you... I had so many people trying to make me do things the way they wanted me to and saying you can't do it like that.... Well I found out it's better to help many people with just posting pictures and keeping my mouth shut... I even got to the point where I wasn't even posting to help people... BUT. my email and PM'S was getting so full from the people that wanted to see what I was doing... When you read all the emails and Pm's from ALL the people that was learning from what I do as a hobby... I decided to just post my pictures and keep my mouth shut... Then when I get on a site where you wanted to be the king of building.. I guess you didn't like the attention I was getting from your friends... I have to ask...Did you feel I was steeling YOUR show on these sites... Now... I will say this much so you will know one thing about me.... I was asked to join ever fourm I posted on.... So that's not the type of guy I would say is looking for a pat on the back.... Do need that Mr.Ted.... I know this much.. If you ask some of my very close friends that REALLY know me face to face...They would ALL tell you... That I don't think of myself as you do.... But I will say this..... I do already KNOW what I can and can't do on ANY build I do... Been there and done that as they say..Mr.Ted... Times have changed... Step up to our times...You yourself MIGHT just learn as well.... But I already feel by the way you act and post when you don't get your way... YOU already know it all.... I thought we put this behind us... But the more I look around the web.. The more I see you post about me... And you post this one and anouther one JUST LIKE THIS ONE. A day apart...You really should get over it...Sorry about this Mike... And to everyone that might think I'm wrong for posting the TRUTH... Again Sorry... And Mike I can tell you this much.... There is people Praying you lose this site... Good luck...I hope you pull though this hard time... And as soon as I can.... I will also give to the site.... Again sorry guy's.... Just sad to read something like this when you help so many over the years..

 

[nolimits]

I will say this much... I Dropped out of 6 or 7.. (Maybe more ) forums,, because of dumb stuff posted like this.. Enjoy what I gave so far... It will be the last post from me... Keep up the great work guy's.. I still look... And Mike I will hold true to what I said...Good luck... Don't need these forums.... Not looking for the pat... I think y'all should give all of mine to MR.TED... good Night and God Bless everyone..

 

[fordsbyjay]

You built a neat car and you need to not worry about the cranky old people that are stuck in their ways. They are everywhere so you just need to ignore it if it bothers you. There are plenty of others that enjoyed/followed your build.