milky oil

[Indycars]

We keep talking about Loctite, but specifically which one???
I check the Loctite website and they don't even list the one I bought 20 years ago....Red 262
They also are showing 10 minutes, would you agree a person would have 10 minutes from the first stud that's screwed in to have them torqued???


Rick

 

[Screaming Metal]

We keep talking about Loctite, but specifically which one???
I check the Loctite website and they don't even list the one I bought 20 years ago....Red 262
They also are showing 10 minutes, would you agree a person would have 10 minutes from the first stud that's screwed in to have them torqued???


Rick

Yup, 10 minutes is about right. depends if I'm doing a aluminum or a cast block. Ususally the red. Remember, the Loctite is HOLDING the stud stationary on the threaded hole into the block. You put all your studs in, then let them sit so the loctite can do its stuff. After I stud a block, I go take a break for about an hour to recoop....

 

[Screaming Metal]

Loctite makes a ton of different products....thay've got some stuff you can put into a wallowed out hole and make it tight agian...those folks make all kinds of stuff....I like the red heavy duty thread locker. Foe stuff you don't want to have to put alot of heat on it to take apart or tear up...the blue medium strength is good.

We're just talking about holding a stud still so it won't creep and affect your torque readings on heads or mains. If you have a bad thread on a stud and put a nut on it to torque down a head....if things aren't right, its possible to be bottomed out in the hole, threads messed up, driving the end of that sut down at 55+ ft.lbs. of torque screwing into the bottom of a already possibly thin hole....causing a water leak.

I've used loctite to do double duty, seal the threads while holding the stud....

 

[Indycars]

You put all your studs in, then let them sit so the loctite can do its stuff. After I stud a block, I go take a break for about an hour to recoop....

After you come back an hour later, then you torque the heads with the nuts. You don't torque the heads down before the Loctite sets up......right???

 

[Screaming Metal]

Yes...after it holdem is a holden, I put the goods to em....load up all the parts going into said motor, bust out the gaskets and its officially party time!!! The Torque wrench and the Lubriplate are my best friends for about the next hour....then off to the dyno...

 

[Screaming Metal]

Yes, after the loctite has set up, you can go ahead with assembly. Sorry for being silly.

Motorcycle mfg'ers have studded barrels and heads for over 50 years. and seems to work for them. Just don't do nothin fancy, just do it. I always go with what works...

 

[Indycars]

Yes, after the loctite has set up, you can go ahead with assembly. Sorry for being silly.

Motorcycle mfg'ers have studded barrels and heads for over 50 years. and seems to work for them. Just don't do nothin fancy, just do it. I always go with what works...

No problem, I'm just embarrassed for asking the same question several times. It's just that I read different, the book said to torque them before the Loctite setup. This was to pull the studs straight like they would be in tension. This is just one of those things where everyone has their way of doing something.

Sorry for all the questions!!!!

Your comments are greatly appreciated!!!

Rick

 

[Screaming Metal]

Understood Rick...

The only problem I have with that they say to do is that with a 1/2 std. thread bolt, you can raise a 1000. weight by applying 55 to 65 ft lbs of torque to a bolt sticking thru a nut. And thats not even a machine threads or a fine thread bolt... Its the same principal of a jackscrew made to level large machines.... Now then, apply the scenario to a stud sticking into the bottom of a threaded hole in your block, and with a water jacket close...

I have seen them bust out....

 

[putz]

This is the loctite I use on things that have to come apart is a gel instead of liquid no mess.

 

[insomniacshotrods]

I talked to a guy today that said he uses red high heat silicon on the head bolts/studs. So if i used locktite also would i just put it on the bottoms of the threads and silicon on the middle and tops of the studs would that be right? It all depends on who you talk to. That just confuses the crap out of me. Thanks all for your support and knowledge on this subject.

 

[Screaming Metal]

I talked to a guy today that said he uses red high heat silicon on the head bolts/studs. So if i used locktite also would i just put it on the bottoms of the threads and silicon on the middle and tops of the studs would that be right? It all depends on who you talk to. That just confuses the crap out of me. Thanks all for your support and knowledge on this subject.

Yes, that is correct. But let me warn you. While silicone can cure a miride of problems, it can also be a nightmare, too.

I once did as you are saying...and it worked. After a racing season was over....went to pull this motor down. While I didn't have any leaks, I could not get the heads to budge off the studs.
I got pissed and finally rigged up 4 empty sparkplug shells, TIG'ed a barbed fitting onto each, connected all on them to airhoses going into one central hose with a check valve. NOW, when one gets stubborn, I let off the valves, hit 4 cylinders with about 140 to 150 lbs of air pressure, and gently/ gingerly pry some and a few raps with my big deadblow hammer....it'll come off with some fighting.

That silicon inside those bolt holes in the heads and those stud....it can be terribly difficult to get them to turn loose sometimes. Several times....I just wound up vatting the whole dawm motor!

Found out one thing though! Won't hurt aluminum blocks/ heads if you don't keep them in there long! Ha! That hot liquid does wonders........

 

[Mike]

Find your local FelPro jobber. Visit them and tell then you want some FelPro thread sealer. I cannot recall the product number, but it is a gray thread sealer and it works a treat. It comes in a fairly small tube, but there's more than enough in a tube to do 2-3 motors.

 

[insomniacshotrods]

Drained the oil and coolant today and then pulled middle stud to check threads, not a bit of sealer on it at all. Gonna be a long week lol.

 

[Wild Mango]

Yup, a drift will work also....I love to have hammers that are soft but heavy to 'tap' things....that way I don't have to beat the h... outta it!

Base of the stud....

What Screamin' said, all good stuff speshly don't bottom studs if you use them. I use a couple studs on the top as a guide and bolt the rest. You MUST use hard washers under the bolt heads, ordinary soft ones are worse than none. Iron or ally heads, all same same. If you do use studs whatever you do don't let the head slide down the studs and slam onto the gasket - that is, unless you want a trip to leakey gasketville. With bolts I just use RTV neutral cure and torque 'em down immediately.
What Ted said - water in oil, bad bad situation. I wouldn't run with enough water in the oil to make it milky (emulsion)the bearings might tolerate it short time but the timing chain won't, too much contact pressure there.
Happy Tinkering alla same!!

 

[RPM]

Drained the oil and coolant today and then pulled middle stud to check threads, not a bit of sealer on it at all. Gonna be a long week lol.

You are going to call the engine builder aren't you, and ask him to fix it correctly?

 

[Screaming Metal]

Yes....don't use soft washers, thay'll make chips that'll find their way into your oil pan. Any grit or metal shavings is a no-no.
The stuff Mike suggests is some good stuff...have used it many times and works great. Is fairly cheap to boot.
And I would suggest you do as Ron suggested...talk to the builder....you should not have to live with his mistakes. I'm a business owner and when I screw up, its up to me to fix it. 90% of my stuff is for racing, Racing stuff don't carry a warranty, but if a motor I build melts down while staging and won't even make it to the 60 ft mark, usually it someones fault. Usually...theres some comphensation on that next motor for my client, along with a guarantee that it'll never happen agian. Ha!

If theres studs involved, there should be either thread sealant on ones going into the waterjackets, and thread sealant/holder into blind holes.

When first installing the head onto the motor the first time, I use 2 studs as Mango said. Then ,after the head is lined up with the dowels, I'll screw in the other studs. If any are hard screwing in or hitting the side of the hole hard....I put a dob of red paint on top of that stud.

Then I pull the head off, watching the studs as I slowly raise the head off. The motor stand I use is a top of a old heavy duty geardrive unit welded to a big piece of I-Beam, about 24" tall. A plate is welded to the bottom of that, that plate in turn is bolted to a superheavyduty transmission jack. When I need to pull a head, I can let the motor down to a little below waist height...that way I keep all the bad stress off my bad back....

Any stud that hits as I pull the head off...I put a dob of orange oaint on it. Those are the ones deserving 'love taps'....

 

[insomniacshotrods]

Its been 2 years since the motor was built and im just now getting to it , I dont know if he would remember if he put sealer on it or not . Id just feel weird telling him he made a mistake when he is a pro and im a novice engine builder. Im kinda looking forward to doing it, at least i know i will do it right. I wouldnt have had him build it in the first place but i have h-beam rods ,roller cam, stuff i had never messed with.I got scared id mess up something,but i can do the head studs. Ive never adjusted full roller rockers before either they are harland sharps but i guess they are not too different than the roller tipe ones i have done. They just have a lock screw on them. I gotta learn to work on it anyway. The engine builder is in another town 30 miles away and i dont have a car trailer. Thanks again for all your guys advice.

 

[Screaming Metal]

Its been 2 years since the motor was built and im just now getting to it , I dont know if he would remember if he put sealer on it or not . Id just feel weird telling him he made a mistake when he is a pro and im a novice engine builder. Im kinda looking forward to doing it, at least i know i will do it right. I wouldnt have had him build it in the first place but i have h-beam rods ,roller cam, stuff i had never messed with.I got scared id mess up something,but i can do the head studs. Ive never adjusted full roller rockers before either they are harland sharps but i guess they are not too different than the roller tipe ones i have done. They just have a lock screw on them. I gotta learn to work on it anyway. The engine builder is in another town 30 miles away and i dont have a car trailer. Thanks again for all your guys advice.

Well...its just a thing the guy should've caught putting it together. Roller rockers adjust the same way that std. rockers adjust....just the adjusting nut has a setscrew in the center jamming down on top of the adjusting stud to keep the adjuster from backing off.
We can talk you thru it if you need help. Since one head was done like that, the other probably is too, so I would suggest taking both off, resealing everything with new top end kit. They'll come with head gaskets, intake gaskets, etc.

The only problem I see with a newbie doing this is setting the valves if they're Hydraulic roller lifters. But, we can talk you thru it...we got the power...

 

[one finger john]

Here are my thoughts on the situation ( and I was in warranty repair for a major Japanese line). You should have contacted this "pro" engine builder when the problem was first noticed. You should have had the option to be present when the problem was diagnosed, even if there was a time lapse of two years, if it turned out a rod nut or stud sealer was missing from the initial build (and you paid for that service and specified it at the time), it should be corrected to make the engine right. I use the missing rod nut as an example only. He sold you his workmanship, and he did not come thru. 30 miles is a big nothing as far as travel to see what happened to the work he performed. At the least, you should be reimbursed for a top end gasket kit, an oil and filter change, and stud sealer. If the engine was assembled properly other than an apparent lapse on the one stud, clean everything up, reassemble, and be down the road. Pay close attention to push rod length (look at roller sweep on top of valve stem), sometimes that can be a problem.

Just remember, the only difference between a "pro" and an amateur is that a "pro" gets paid for his services.

John

 

[Screaming Metal]

Here are my thoughts on the situation ( and I was in warranty repair for a major Japanese line). You should have contacted this "pro" engine builder when the problem was first noticed. You should have had the option to be present when the problem was diagnosed, even if there was a time lapse of two years, if it turned out a rod nut or stud sealer was missing from the initial build (and you paid for that service and specified it at the time), it should be corrected to make the engine right. I use the missing rod nut as an example only. He sold you his workmanship, and he did not come thru. 30 miles is a big nothing as far as travel to see what happened to the work he performed. At the least, you should be reimbursed for a top end gasket kit, an oil and filter change, and stud sealer. If the engine was assembled properly other than an apparent lapse on the one stud, clean everything up, reassemble, and be down the road. Pay close attention to push rod length (look at roller sweep on top of valve stem), sometimes that can be a problem.

Just remember, the only difference between a "pro" and an amateur is that a "pro" gets paid for his services.

John

What he said.... :flip: