Stainless Steel for a building material

[RexRod]

Some nob questions....

Have any of you good people used any Stainless for your suspension parts? I notice it's becoming more common for Street Rod parts in general. Polishing it out instead of chrome for a finish seems to be popular as well.

Is polishing stainless a true alternative to chrome? I know it's not as hard of a surface as chrome, but does it take a lot of work to keep it nice?

I was considering making some of my parts out of stainless if others think it's worth the extra money for the raw material. I know chrome is not cheap anymore. Not around here anyway.

My only concern is strength. My experience with 300 series stainless is it's not as tough as mild steel. Thoughts?

Just curious. Take care,

David

 

[donsrods]

I can't speak to what grades of stainless are the ones to use, I will let others do that, however I have used stainless suspension parts from companies like Pete and Jakes, SoCal, etc, and they hold up great. The problem with chrome is that it does scratch somewhat easily, requires periodic cleaning, and will rust in time. Stainless can develop slight rusting, but it takes a real long time to happen and cleans off easily when it does.

I recently started cleaning up my old '27 Ford that I built 20 years ago and have had stored now for 7 years. The chrome is still pretty good, but the stainless parts are just like new.


Don

 

[Brucer]

ive machined 304 stainless and it was very tough...


there is a series of stainless its called EZ for instance :304ez i think it has added lead in it for easier machinability.

the regular 304 i've machined and also the 400 series can be tough as heck.. abrasive and gummy..

the stainless material ive dealt with in the past isnt very consistent from bar to bar either, atleast the 300 series, the 400 series all has seemed to be consistent..

 

[RexRod]

Don,

Good to know you've had good luck maintaining the look of the polished stainless compared to chrome. I was hoping that was the case.

Hi Brucer,

You are right, the 300 series stainless really is a gummy material. It's also strangely soft, and surface hardens when machined with dull tools due to heat. It takes a keen tool, slow speeds, medium feeds and lots of coolant to cut. But as you learn how to work with it, the machining gets easier after a while.

The higher lead/sulfur content of free machining grades like 303, 304L, and 316L also help, but they are not weldable at all. Good for making bushings, hardware, and anything that is finished with just machining like a tie rod.

There are aircraft grades like 15-5 and 17-4 that are almost as strong as the better carbon steels, but they share the same magnetic properties as well as rust easy (those are the grades I have the most experience with). Still more corrosion resistant than carbon steel, but just barely.

I am not 100% percent sure, but I am going to guess the suspension parts we see made for Street Rods are made from 304/316. The 316 being slightly more corrosion resistant. The 304 and 316 grades also weld like a dream, at least, that's my experience.

I guess if the big boys are using stainless for their critical structural parts, it must be tough enough. I was concerned because I have first hand experience with how bendable/malleable 304/316 is. One plus I could see with that characteristic is your part will stretch like a piece of taffy before you can tear it apart. Could come in handy during a catastrophic event.

I should do some cost comparisons between using polished SS, and the cost of having the same part made from carbon steel and then chromed. With SS, the average person could get the look of chrome, but be able to do it himself/herself in there own space. Something to consider.

Just thinking out loud. Thanks guys!

David

 

[Youngster]

I have been using SS bushing ends, jams and clevis' from Speedway for a while now without any problems. I guess the thing I like is the threads don't rust up and you don't have to worry about bruising the chrome on the jam nuts. JMO

Ron

 

[putz]

In my work I have used stainless of lesser grades for valves and it does surface rust.Best grades are marine or aviationfor corrision.
Why is Stainless Steel Stainless?
basic stainless explanation link

 

[RexRod]

I have been using SS bushing ends, jams and clevis' from Speedway for a while now without any problems. I guess the thing I like is the threads don't rust up and you don't have to worry about bruising the chrome on the jam nuts. JMO

Ron

You bring up an interesting point Ron. If you do nick or scratch the stainless part, it can be easily fixed by just buffing it out again. Heck, if the damage is deep enough, you might even be able to fill the wound with weld and re-polish. Now that's appealing.

David

 

[donsrods]

The one thing I have to say is that chrome, done properly, has a deep richness to it that polished stainless does not. If you take something that has been chromed by a quality shop, like Advanced Plating, and compare it to stainless, you will see a difference.............not that the chrome is better, but just different.

Much depends on what look you are after. If you are building a totally traditional car, chrome plating kind of fits the look better. But if you are after a great look and durability, stainless is better in many respects.

As for marine grade stainless, I just retired from the marine industry, and stainless WILL rust. Many times our customers would accuse us of selling boats with inferior grade stainless trim because it developed rust spots after exposure to salt air and water. We would alway remind them of the old saying, "It is called Stain- LESS ", which means it will stain less than regular steel, but will still corrode. However, good polishing and maintenance will keep it shiny.

Don

 

[Tbucit]

To reconfirm: Yes stailesss will corode it has iron in it and that will rust.

All stainless other than 300 series is magnetic

I have used 300 series (321) for my four bars, drag link.

My brake pedal assy is made from heatreated 17-44

The bolts are again 17-4 heattreated

Chrome does look better but stainless will take more abuse and is easier to keep in my opinion

here are pics of some of my stainless parts

 

[Brucer]

any of the stainless ive machined we've used no less then cobalt tooling and steady stream/flood of coolant. i've also used carbide.. if there are holes in the part, depending size of holes and thickness of the material we'll mill the holes instead of drill them, either prototrak, or cnc mill..


ding: an idea: you might try looking up 27th or 28th edition Machinist Handbook,(not the Home Machinist book) or go to your local tooling supply place and definetly purchase one of these books.. this is an encyclopedia of the machine tool trade and has a vast knowlege of about anything in the garage you can think of.. speeds and feeds and tap and drill charts, formulas, heck anything you can think of.. when i bought mine about 20 years ago i give $30 for it , think theyre about $50 or $60 but well worth it to have in the tool box..

i know for a fact there is a detailed material and uses chart for different materials..

heres a little list
Stainless Steel Specification and Composition Chart - Engineers Edge

Stainless comparison and specification table

 

[RexRod]

Tbucit,

Those are some beautiful pieces! I like how you accent colored the brake pedal parts. Very cool.

Brucer,

Thanks for the links. I especially like the short usage descriptions for each grade. The machinist bible is something I have owned since 1978. A super reference for all kinds of stuff. Every time I upgrade to a newer version, I find some kid to give my old one to.

I hadn't thought of using the CNC for making the smaller holes in some parts. I will usually use the CNC for larger holes, or pockets. For the smaller stuff, I just typically use the Criterion boring head. I will have to check the accuracy of my machine for circular interpolating smaller holes. My experience tells me it won't be close enough for fitting close stuff like bearings. Typically, a fresh CNC can only interpolate a hole round to within about 1/2 thou. One to two thou if the machine has a lot of use like mine does.

Take care,

David

 

[Brucer]

have you set the backlash on your machine lately recheck level, and set the backlash, brings a old machine back into spec and cuts down on bearing failure and ballscrew wear, also stick an indicator on your spindle and apply pressue to see how much your bearings are worn....

a trick you can do is to program the circle or hole in quadrants or sections of a pie.. it will actually bring your hole in very close if you need to...

we have some high speed machines at work, they have backlash set a .0003 and spindles will run 25,000 rpms . we use diamond coated carbide, 1/4 inch ballnose runs around 14,000rpm at 60ipm.. and thats in heat treated h-13

our conventional cnc machines are older Enshu Mills early to mid 90's models, i cut a shot hole yesterday within .0005, and round within .0005... 3.4543 was print dimension with + or - .0005 i went 3.4548 for a lil slip/tap fit but it wont flash it was for a diecast mold for a steering wheel..

 

[RexRod]

have you set the backlash on your machine lately recheck level, and set the backlash, brings a old machine back into spec and cuts down on bearing failure and ballscrew wear, also stick an indicator on your spindle and apply pressue to see how much your bearings are worn....

I have done all of that already. Ball screw thrust bearings are set at .0005", backlash compensation is set at .002 for Y and .0026 for X, and the spindle is only so, so. I need to adjust my spindle speeds sometimes to get around some of the harmonics to get the finish I want. The machine is more worn for my taste but I only paid $3000 for it, so I'm pretty happy.

a trick you can do is to program the circle or hole in quadrants or sections of a pie.. it will actually bring your hole in very close if you need to...

Wow! I had never thought of that. I learn something new everyday. I am going to play with that and see what kinds of results I can get. My machine makes round holes to within 1 to 2 thou depending on where my table is at. I am presently using one end more than the middle where most of the wear is in the ball screw. I am also very new at this whole CNC thing. :lol:

we have some high speed machines at work, they have backlash set a .0003 and spindles will run 25,000 rpms . we use diamond coated carbide, 1/4 inch ballnose runs around 14,000rpm at 60ipm.. and thats in heat treated h-13

our conventional cnc machines are older Enshu Mills early to mid 90's models, i cut a shot hole yesterday within .0005, and round within .0005... 3.4543 was print dimension with + or - .0005 i went 3.4548 for a lil slip/tap fit but it wont flash it was for a diecast mold for a steering wheel..

Well, it sounds like at work you are running some pretty nice gear. It also sounds like you really know your way around CNC's and how to use them. It was only a year or so ago I got my little two axis machine for home use, and it was the first time I have ever used a CNC of any kind. It has the Anilam retrofit kit on it that has that nice conversational programming language for tool paths. I don't know g-code, but I could learn it if I had to.

I have been a precision prototype machinist for almost 30 years and never had the interest to run the automatics. But I must admit, my little CNC does some pretty fun stuff. For simple stuff, I thought my little two axis machine would be a big time saver, but to my surprise it really doesn't save much on single part runs. The only time I see a savings is if I'm making something complex in shape.

I might sound like an old fuddy-duddy, but I wish more people who specialize in the CNC's would spend a little more time with the handle crankers. Guys like me are a dieing breed. There is a whole world you can't learn without getting your face close, your ears listening, your finger tips and your eyes involved. Sometimes you even use your nose! You want to be safe of course.

Thanks for the tips!

David

 

[Brucer]

i worked as a machinist and prototype machinist for a sub-contractor for major wheel manufacturer for 12 years, and then moved over to the tool and die and mold making trade. was involved in some cool development stuff for the military :lol:

i have some good experience in cnc machines i ran a mori-seiki lathe for 3 yrs straight, then i moved over to machining centers/mills and been there ever since that was back in the 80's, ive ran everything from a lathes to boring mills with 8 foot tables, to boston digital twin spindle carbon cutting machines to micron high speed mills.. been to mastercam training for 50 hr class on advanced 3d programming. programmed mastercam for about 6 months for a small shop, and then i moved to a bigger mold shop for some decent money... to bad the tool&die trade is a failing trade now, the foreign markets are killing it here in america..


I can tell you for single parts a cnc, or anilam/prototrak machine wont save you any money, it will actually cost you more for single part runs,because you have to figure in design/programming time,but multi part runs is when you make it.. man it would be sweet to have at home... if you got it for 3k thats a deal i think..

you need software like mastercam, the learning curve on it is steep, but when you learn it, it speeds things up alot... plus you have a nice drawing for visual reference and a program to store back so the next time you dont have down time for design/programming.. there are hacked versions out there, ive seen them..todays $500 laptops will run it easy, especially the 2d..

to touch on the hole cutting or circular interpolation, another trick you can do, is to do a radius leading into the pocket/circle so both axis' are always working and pulling on eachother.. its called spiral pocket cutting or a lead in and lead out radius..it really smoothes the hole out.. dont know if an anilam controller will do that,or has it built in, but pretty sure you can make it to do it. i dont know alot of the anilam controllers, ive always ran yasnac and fanuc controllers have limited use on prototrak.
if you have any questions about that type of stuff feel free to ask.. i could probably generate some programming for you at work, dunno if we have an anilam post installed on our mastercam but its nothing but a click away..



i had to add this.. your not a fuddy duddy at all, some or the smartest men i've met in my life were manual machinists and the old school tool&die makers/mold makers.. the old tool&die/mold makers amaze me, one of the smartest men ive ever met was an engineer that was a machinist for 15 years before he got his degree, the man didnt need a calculator. amazed me, you could pick numbers and have him add multiply or divide or whatever else, he would get it correct standing right there in front of you every time without a calculaor, and his designs were always thought out well and worked well.
in turn, i've also seen a many of those old manual machine guys try to convert to cnc and they couldnt do it, because they couldnt feel it..

 

[RexRod]

you need software like mastercam, the learning curve on it is steep, but when you learn it, it speeds things up alot...

The guy who sold me the machine has an earlier copy of Mastercam he is going to give to me. It's a legal copy he bought with a serial number and all, he just doesn't use it anymore because he upgrades whenever a new version comes out.

to touch on the hole cutting or circular interpolation, another trick you can do, is to do a radius leading into the pocket/circle so both axis' are always working and pulling on eachother.. its called spiral pocket cutting or a lead in and lead out radius..it really smoothes the hole out.. dont know if an anilam controller will do that,or has it built in, but pretty sure you can make it to do it.

The Anilam controller will do that. I will took at that as a possibility as well. What I need to do is put some spindle bearings in the machine and some new ball screws! That would make a huge difference.

if you have any questions about that type of stuff feel free to ask..

I appreciate that. I am just learning about this stuff!

i had to add this.. your not a fuddy duddy at all, some or the smartest men i've met in my life were manual machinists and the old school tool&die makers/mold makers.. the old tool&die/mold makers amaze me, one of the smartest men ive ever met was an engineer that was a machinist for 15 years before he got his degree, the man didnt need a calculator. amazed me, you could pick numbers and have him add multiply or divide or whatever else, he would get it correct standing right there in front of you every time without a calculaor, and his designs were always thought out well and worked well.
in turn, i've also seen a many of those old manual machine guys :lol: try to convert to cnc and they couldnt do it, because they couldnt feel it..

Well thank you sir. And it IS about "Feel" for us handle crankers! Couldn't have described it better myself. We don't look at feeds and speeds tables, we know if things are just right by feel. When your working on something the size of a fly, there's no other way to do it but by feel!

Something that might interest you, back in the late 80's, I got a rare chance to step out of the prototype room for a few months and apprentice with an 81 year old scrapping hand. I spent 6 month's with the guy. We rebuilt several milling machines, one lathe and a surface grinder. One of the milling machines we rebuilt is one I own today (it's a manual machine I also have here at home). Now that's a skill no one does anymore. Our "throw away society" makes sure of that. :neutral:

Thanks again Brucer! It's been nice getting to know you!

Take care,

David

 

[RexRod]

Did some very rough comparisons between the extra cost of SS versus chrome.

I don't have very good sources for materials, so I just looked on line at going rates to make my comparison.

Example:
Approx $90 dollars for materials in a front axle made from DOM.
Approx $185 dollars for stainless to make the same axle.

Difference between using DOM and SS is approx $95 dollars.

Approx $195 dollars to chrome said DOM axle using Speedways prices.

So the chrome is around double the cost of what you would pay extra to make the same part out of SS. It's getting easier to see why people are using it.

Stainless is looking good!

David

 

[Tbucit]

And if you called aplace like Advance Plating in Nashville it would be about $300 for the axle.

Randall

 

[TheAntiBoyd]

I worked in a chrome shop for a few years; and they are switching over from the old hand plating guys (in their 50s and 60s) to the computer controlled plating (mostly on plastics by guys in their 20s). Even though I wasnt a plater, I learned a LOT. Part of the reason replating our "vintage" parts is SO expensive is the condition of the part to begin with. A good shop with buffing/polishing facilities will plate a copper strike and buff, plate copper and buff until it is smooth enough to put the nickel and chrome on the part. If you bring them a ratty old part and they take 2 weeks in the cleaners and copper, plus buffing...you can see where this goes. If you bring them a good part, where the holes are finish ground so they dont have to clean it for days and only need 1 or 2 trips through the acid copper bath...you'll save yourself a lot. The other reason chrome is so expensive is the waste treatment facilities they are required to use are insanely expensive. No one will treat cyanide anymore, and a lot of places are scaling back on the chrome salts you use on metals; so when they use copper cyanide and chrome salts...its gonna cost you.
Alot of times you can work with the chrome shop. if you dont really have a deadline so they can efficiently load their racks and save money; AND you bring them a clean finished part to their needs....its a LOT cheaper.

My great grandad was a tool/diemaker and a lot of his tools are german from the civil war era. they are some of my most prized possessions; and no one in my family but my dad (who was an industrial arts teacher) and grandpa (who was a welding instructor for 35yrs) couldnt understand why I didnt throw them out. You manual machinists never cease to amaze me

 

[Youngster]

It really dosen't cost that much to set up a polishing center at home. You can buy a buffing motor from Harbor Freight for around $70 or go to Sears and get one for about $150. Eastwood has a ready supply of rouges and wheels. you might have $250 tied up in a motor and supplies but you will save many times that by the time you plate the parts for your T.

Ron

 

[RexRod]

Thanks for the replies guys!

Here is a big time saver I learned a long time ago if you are going to polish out some kind of complicated assembly:

Polish every part of the assembly before welding while it's still small and easy to polish. Be care full when you do weld. Then the little damage done when welding is easy to finish/polish out when everything is stuck together.

It doesn't always work out that way, but mostly it does.

Just my two cents.

David