Ted Brown's brake pedal...

[Ted Brown]

Here is a little more detailed view of how the balance bar works. The sleeve that is welded to the pedal contains a spherical bearing (heim joint without the threaded portion) that is free to move along the bore of the tube. This has a shaft that is threaded on each end and has 2 grooves that capture the bearing on each side with E-clips or snap rings. The clevis pins are threaded internally and all threads are right hand. The shaft has a screwdriver slot in the end for turning the shaft and making the spherical bearing move left or right. There is a given amount of force on the ball that is created by the input on the pedal arm. The shaft acts as a lever and distributes the amount of input force on the two master cylinders according to the lengths of the shaft segments. Leverage, as Ted says, is what it's all about.

Thanks, I do have a few pics up, (but they never show here) but this shows the setup much clearer, & you said all the right words, the right way In many race cars the adjustment shaft is connected to a cable with a twist knob close to the driver so he can adjust things (while driving if needed) for any type of stopping power desired... a little more to the front? or rear? just a small twist & wolla, it's done

 

[Bill Pedersen]

Here is another example of a balance bar. We have dual master cylinders and use this to adjust the brake bias on my sons shifter kart.

 

[Ted Brown]

Believe it or not, that set up looks stronger than many I have seen lately, and it is done soo nice as well, bet that Baby stops GREAT! Plus you see room for lots of adjustment on most everything, that is what and how I ran the T's in the early learning stages, lots of adjustments, and changes, when things broke, and I broke a lot of things at first, mostly by listening to what other's said, I found that I needed to do for myself, what I thought was a better idea, run it and test it myself... each car is different in many ways... Good luck, as brakes are soooo important with horsepower. :lol:

 

[Screaming Metal]

Yep, Ted and a few others here on the boards are what most refer to as 'Master Craftsmen'. They've built race and street machines and are a valued resourch here on these boards........

The old saying....'Been there, done that!' often refers to these guys.......instead of 'reinventing' the wheel....these guys were improving on it!!!!!!

Great going guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RexRod]

Man, you guys are creative. I love seeing stuff like this.

David

 

[Ted Brown]

As you can see in the pics of the go kart brake pedal, it can be adjusten in all directions, more or less leverage at the pedal, same for the master cyls.. They can give the exact pressure needed.. I may change my new set up to be simular to that, so the pedal travel can be totally as wanted or needed... BUT, once set, it should never have to be changed, back to what I already have.. OH well a good thought for new projects...

 

[Alfwulf]

Well the pedal is sorta like that except the rear of the pedal points up rather than down, and the master is up front pointing back, this makes the whole setup a lot shorter, so now when the pedal goes down the arm moves forward into the masters, I use two masters, one for drums and one for disk, both different size bores. smaller for disk...= more pressure.. :rofl:

I hope no one minds (some forums call this Hijacking) if I ask this here instead of starting a new thread. On the different size M/C's, would that be..1" bore for the rear wheel cyl.s and 7/8" for the calipers up front? Our project is using Chevy Caliper on front and Chevy wheel cylinders on rear.
Help, your experience clarified?
Thanks everyone here has always been generous.
Lee

 

[fordsbyjay]

I hope no one minds (some forums call this Hijacking) if I ask this here instead of starting a new thread. On the different size M/C's, would that be..1" bore for the rear wheel cyl.s and 7/8" for the calipers up front? Our project is using Chevy Caliper on front and Chevy wheel cylinders on rear.
Help, your experience clarified?
Thanks everyone here has always been generous.
Lee

I am not sure based on your calipers but when you run dual m/c you need smaller cylinders because they are individual. I have not been able to get a good explanation why but I have used a couple wilwood systems and one from CNC products on other projects. In my 64 Falcon with 13" Brembo brakes IIRC I have 13/16 in the Front and 5/8 in the rear. I initially tried larger ones like you mention and the pedal was so stiff you could barely push it.

 

[Alfwulf]

I am not sure based on your calipers but when you run dual m/c you need smaller cylinders because they are individual. I have not been able to get a good explanation why but I have used a couple wilwood systems and one from CNC products on other projects. In my 64 Falcon with 13" Brembo brakes IIRC I have 13/16 in the Front and 5/8 in the rear. I initially tried larger ones like you mention and the pedal was so stiff you could barely push it.

Thanks I kinda forgot this post. The numbers you mention for you Falcon are numbers that I am used to seeing. This 1" bore stuff that seems to be popular in T kits sounds too big. Like you said the pedal was stiff. That may explain why so many of the kits have really loooong pedals, probably for leverage!

I'm going to look at a couple of T near me in the Orlando area.

Thanks, Lee

 

[Ted Brown]

Here is a little more detailed view of how the balance bar works. The sleeve that is welded to the pedal contains a spherical bearing (heim joint without the threaded portion) that is free to move along the bore of the tube. This has a shaft that is threaded on each end and has 2 grooves that capture the bearing on each side with E-clips or snap rings. The clevis pins are threaded internally and all threads are right hand. The shaft has a screwdriver slot in the end for turning the shaft and making the spherical bearing move left or right. There is a given amount of force on the ball that is created by the input on the pedal arm. The shaft acts as a lever and distributes the amount of input force on the two master cylinders according to the lengths of the shaft segments. Leverage, as Ted says, is what it's all about. :bubble:

George, that is just what I have and how it works, makes for a real compact setup...and yes leverage is the key to the whole chassis setup...

 

[Ted Brown]

I am not sure based on your calipers but when you run dual m/c you need smaller cylinders because they are individual. I have not been able to get a good explanation why but I have used a couple wilwood systems and one from CNC products on other projects. In my 64 Falcon with 13" Brembo brakes IIRC I have 13/16 in the Front and 5/8 in the rear. I initially tried larger ones like you mention and the pedal was so stiff you could barely push it.

if I am right as I read this, you have them backwards, the smaller 5/8" cyl needs to go to the front disk brakes...

 

[Old Rotor Flap]

This is a great thread. WOW, great ideas and outstanding workmanship in both design and execution.

I'll qualify my comments by saying I'm a year away from the road and I haven't done this before.....

I have a pair of .750" Tilton master cylinders and Tilton balance bar for disc front and drum rear. Yes Paris, I'm rather frugal..... OK Paris, cheap, too cheap to put discs on the back. No snickering, they came with the rear end.

Anyway, my design criteria for this allowed me to make my pedals a bit lighter while maintaining good inertia balance.... or so, I lead myself to believe. A tad longer stroke may prove to offer more control.... or not. I don't know.

Thanks gents for your important contributions to my inching up the learning curve.

 

[Ted Brown]

Here is a little more detailed view of how the balance bar works. The sleeve that is welded to the pedal contains a spherical bearing (heim joint without the threaded portion) that is free to move along the bore of the tube. This has a shaft that is threaded on each end and has 2 grooves that capture the bearing on each side with E-clips or snap rings. The clevis pins are threaded internally and all threads are right hand. The shaft has a screwdriver slot in the end for turning the shaft and making the spherical bearing move left or right. There is a given amount of force on the ball that is created by the input on the pedal arm. The shaft acts as a lever and distributes the amount of input force on the two master cylinders according to the lengths of the shaft segments. Leverage, as Ted says, is what it's all about. :hyper:

Let me also say this about this setup, it does not change any pressure when the brakes are applied during real quick and hard stops, like a proportioning valve does, It ( is used to keep the rear wheels from locking up under very hard stops, during normal stops, it does not change much at all) I don't know about you, but I want all the wheels locked up during a panic stop, whoa there big Girl... :bubble:

 

[jeffery]

Well, since Ted hasn't gotten us any pics yet of his pedal setup, I guess that I'll just try drawing what it might look like...again.

You wouldnt happen to have a parts list of that great brake pdal assembly would you? :hiding:

 

[Gerry]

You wouldnt happen to have a parts list of that great brake pdal assembly would you? :hiding:

Hi
Heres another way to do it. Clears a lot of space in an already crowded area (Around your feet) and puts the cylinders under the seat in a weather free area.
Took a bit of time but worth it
Gerry

 

[Gerry]

Hi
Heres another way to do it. Clears a lot of space in an already crowded area (Around your feet) and puts the cylinders under the seat in a weather free area.
Took a bit of time but worth it
Gerry
[attachment=3724edal-assembly-(10).jpg]

[attachment=3725edal-assembly-(6).jpg]

Hey Guys.
I just remembered about the leverage. Normal servo brakes With disks) us a leverage of about 3.0 to 1. This is then increased by the servo by another 1.9 to 1.
For non servo brakes using disks the recommended leverage is 6.2 - 6.5. That should stop your baby without having to wrench yourself out of the seat.
Gerry

 

[dodgewade]

First let me say as many others have, George your drawings just make me want to go out and build what ever it is you have drawn. They are just enough to allow you to "see" what is needed and make any small adjustment that may be needed to make a very attractive and uncluttered part or bracket. All of these should be achived someplace for future reference.
My pedal goes down into the floor instead of forward but like all these things you exchange one clearence problem for another.
I am trying to use smaller pictures.
Randall

Not a good shot but my pedal



This is all the parts to make it.



And how it looked assembled but not installed.

Good looking build. What kind of the steering gearbox do you have?.

 

[Ted Brown]

Good looking build. What kind of the steering gearbox do you have?.

Looking at your bottom arm, I would say that would be a very hard push pedal, and easy to break off that bottom arm, because you can move a ton with your leg, more than you think... the smaller the master, the easier to push... If I remember right my front master is 5/8" and the one (Tilton's, both) rear is 7/8" or 3/4??? CRS this is the worst part about gettin old, the memory sucks.