Well, wasn't that painful

[Mike]

Apologies to everyone for the downtime. I closed the forums down for an upgrade, which usually takes 11 - 12 minutes, tops. This afternoon, it only took one hour, 47 minutes.

I would start uploading files, things would work well for maybe 100 - 200 files, then the FTP server would shoot craps. I think I've worn out the re-start FTP services option, jut trying to get all 2,535 files uploaded.

Anyway, we are now running on XenForo 1.3.1. As always if you see any issues, please submit a ticket in the Help Desk.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but your hard work is very much appreciated. Now that MS has discontinued XP support, I'm waiting for my PC to implode...

Jack

 

[Mike]

Please, start looking into immediate solutions to running XP. Your machine is going to be vulnerable, and this time around, Microsoft is not going to be there to provide you with a patch.

What most people do not understand is that if their own machines are infected, they stand a very good chance of infecting other machines. Which means if a malicious script makes its way onto your system, you might end up transmitting that same script to all the people in your address book. This is why I say it is imperative to come up with an alternative solution, without delay.

If your machine has enough gut to handle Windows 7, then try upgrading to that. Many XP machines won't have enough to handle that kind of upgrade. But Linux is another option for you. It sounds difficult, until you actually do it, but the process in this case would be incredibly simple.

1. Back up your personal data (photos, files, music, etc.) to an external drive, to a memory stick, to DVDs, or whatever you have.
2. Download a copy of a Linux distribution and burn the .iso to a DVD with an appropriate burner.
3. Leave the newly burned DVD in the optical drive and shut off the machine.
4. Turn the machine back on and press the necessary key to access the machine's boot options (usually F12).
5. Select the optical drive as the device to boot from.
6. Linux will load into your machine rather slowly, as everything is going to be running from memory or the DVD, but it will load. Just be patient.
7. Once it loads, have a look around. Open a browser and see if your Internet connection is recognized. See if Linux recognizes your printer. Visit YouTube and see if videos will play with sound.
8. If everything seems to be working (and it likely will), click the desktop icon to install what flavor Linux you have chosen.
9. Answer the questions about what language you want to use, what time zone you are in and what keyboard you are using.
10. Tell it you want to customize the install locations and then do the following -
- Set up a 15 - 20 GB partition and mount it as / Tell the installer to format the partition.
- Set up a partition that is at least as big as the amount of memory your machine has (twice as much can be nice, on smaller machines). Mount that partition as Swap and tell the installer to format the partition.
- Use all the rest of the space for a partition to be mounted as /home and tell the installer to format that partition.
- The last step is to select to install the GRUB file at /dev/sda
11. Type in your name, a username and a password.
12. Depending on the Linux version, you will have to wait between 10 and 30 minutes for everything to be installed. When the installer says it is finished, remove the DVD and reboot the machine.
13. Welcome to the world of Linux, where you will not have to worry about adware, malware, viruses, hard drive fragmentation, etc. Move all your files from the external storage into the Home folder in Linux and then start installing all the free software you want, to set the operating system up to your liking.

Seriously, once your personal data is safely stored, installing something like Linux Mint might take you 10 or 15 minutes, to walk through the installer steps, but Mint will install in 10 minutes. It really is that quick and painless. And then, your machine will be running faster than you can remember it ever running, plus it will be safe from all the malicious Windows files that everyone is fighting, every day. I can have a brand new Mint installation running within 15 minutes, easy.

If any of you are up to getting your XP machines moved to Linux, feel free to post any questions to the appropriate forum. There are a handful of us with Linux experience who will be able to help you.

 

[flmnwlf]

Holy moly there goes my saturday

 

[Mike]

Holy moly there goes my saturday

If you are wiping off XP and installing Linux in its place, you can do it pretty quickly. Depending on your connection, you will likely have 20 minutes in downloading the .iso, another 5 minutes to burn the image to a DVD and then from there, you can easily have everything else finished within 30 - 45 minutes. Seriously. I remember doing an XP install that took me 6+ hours, but I am not joking when I say I can run a Mint install in less than 15 minutes.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

Mike, I've considered Linux in the past, but I have tons of older applications that I'm afraid won't run under a different OS. Things like AutoCAD 2000, Canon's Digital Photography Professional, Photoshop, and CAD/CAM programs for my benchtop mill. I also have a backup program - Paragon - that allows me to migrate my entire system (OS plus personal files) to different hardware if there's a permanent failure like a bad MB.

I understand what you're saying about vulnerability, and that's something I worry about even when support is available. I'm starting to wonder if I should have a second PC running Win 7 or 8 for Web use and keep my old machine for applications. I could connect them with USB for file transfer and maybe install a video switch. It wouldn't be as convenient, but I'm really tired of the time and effort to keep up with this. In fact, I only moved to XP when I switched from film to digital photography because the Canon software wouldn't install with anything older. What a PITA, this is like having to replace all my sockets or wrenches every few years.

Jack

 

[fluidfloyd]

Jack,

I feel your pain on non Linux compatible programs. I too am in the same situation with various design programs. I was running Autocad 2000 but switched to a free program called Draftsight. They have a Linux version and I have tried it. I also have Solidworks and there doesn't appear to be a cure for it. Like you I believe the solution is two laptops. I now have a Dell D610 with both XP Pro and Linux on the hard drive. I try to run Linux when on the net but sometimes it's a pain to shut down XP and restart in Linux. I can buy another Dell D620 or 630 with Windows 7 Pro 32 or 64 bit for around $250.00. There is a small computer shop in Gardner Kansas that repairs and sells used computers and every machine they refurbish has 7 Pro on it. Hard to argue with that. I think I will duplicate my Dell with a second one just so I can carry home a flash drive every night instead of a computer bag. Actually, I keep another XP laptop on the shop floor just to reference cad drawings on the fly and it never sees the internet. Just something to think about.

George

 

[PotvinGuy]

Here's a recent discussion on how to safeguard your PC against crashing and the internet bad guys: http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/87792#comment995188

I've implemented the ideas, including a real switch to disconnect the Ethernet when I'm not using it, to keep the bots out.

 

[Mike]

Jack, therein lies the conundrum of when a computer stops being a personal computer, and becomes an enterprise machine.

A hypothetical situation - I am running a photography business, so I have many different programs I purchased for Windows XP, in order to operate my business. But, as time has gone by, Windows XP was replaced by Windows Vista, some six years later. Two years after than, Windows 7 replaced Vista. Three years after that, Windows 8 was rolled out. And my first reaction is to scream like a mashed cat, at the cost of constantly having to upgrade my computer systems. (And for those who are not aware, Windows 9, code-named 'Threshold' is being rushed for a possible late-2014 release, so get ready for another round of the same-old-same-old.)

But let's stop and think about that for a moment. In the same 13 years since my hypothetical business first started using Windows XP, how many camera bodies have I purchased? How many lenses? Haven't I been upgrading that equipment over the same time period? (Heck, even as just someone who wants photographic evidence of my misspent life, I can open up a box that still has my old Canon AE-1 packed away, along with the Sony digital camera that stored photos on 3.5" floppy disks, no less.) How many professional photographers are still shooting to film, these days?

Sure, there is nothing more fun than to have high-tech 'toys' (and I certainly don't mean that in a negative way), but we also need to understand and accept that time marches on and if we are going to stay atop of whatever we are doing, we need to be prepared to march right along with it. I can recall a time when businesses used manual cash registers and adding machines, but can you name a single business that still does those things? How many businesses do you see trying to operate point of purchase machines on OS/2? What?!? You mean OS/2, an operating system that was released 27 years ago is no longer viable for business use???

I've run into problems with old operating systems and old software, in the operation of my Web sites. Ask @Keeper how long it has been since machines on the network he is responsible for stopped using Internet Explorer 6. Heck, this forum software is a struggle for IE 7, let alone IE 6. And as sure as I am sitting here, XP will create all those same kinds of nightmares for me. Westminster decided to pay Microsoft a fee of $9.2 million a year, to maintain XP support for government computers in the dis-United Kingdom. And we all know that employees only use company computers to accomplish their daily workload, aye? Several US banks are making the same move. People, people, people, XP is dead. Let it go, bury it and get on with life. But no, some 2 or 3 years from now, somebody on a network that is still running XP is going to complain they cannot see images on the forum, or cannot post to the forum, or cannot register for the forum.

Are you still watching black and white television, with signal provided from a rooftop antenna?

Are you still using a wind-up alarm clock?

Are you still shaving with a straight razor, or a safety razor? ( I would have to answer 'yes' to that one)

Are you still burning coal to heat your home?

Are you still using a crank telephone to communicate with others?

Are you still using payphones to communicate with others, when you are away from your home?

Are you still using a stove top and oven to prepare and warm food, or do you own a microwave oven?

Are you still listening to 8-track tapes in your car?

Are you still using a portable cassette tape player, to listen to music whilst you work?

Are you still using a typewriter to prepare printed documents?

Are you still storing computer data on 5.25" floppy disks?

If you've been upgrading all of these things, then why have you been so resistant to upgrading the computer you use to do so many other things in your life?

I really do understand, I am as thrifty and as frugal (not to be confused with being a wedge-arsed tightwad) as the next person. But when it comes down to keeping my computer systems up to date, I don't stick my head in the sand and hide from it all. And I am the fellow who is typing this post on a Dell PC that is almost 8 years old, a machine shipped with nothing other than Windows XP installed.

Updating and upgrading doesn't always mean spending a boatload of money. @409T has mentioned he runs an older CAD program under WINE, on his Linux machines. As I pointed out in another thread, Code Weavers offers CrossOver, which will let you run Windows programs on a Linux machine. But there is a snag, because it will cost you $60/year to keep a CrossOver license current. And you make it sound like Linux scripts, such as K-3D, QCAD, BRL-CAD, GIMP and Rawstudio don't even exist. I just looked and the software installer for this particular version of Linux has all of those, except BRL-CAD, available for download. No need to order anything, or drive anywhere to get the programs, I can just download them. At no cost.

People often fail to understand when Linux users talk about free operating systems and free software. They think that means if it is free, it must be junk. Or if it is free, it must be cripple-ware. Or if it is free, it must not be fully-featured. Actually, the Linux operating systems come at no cost, as does the software. What we are talking about when we say free is freedom. Antergos Linux is no cost, but it is me that is free, because I run it.

 

[Keeper]

A lot of good points in this thread. Biggest being, get off XP and onto something newer.

Microsoft goes in cycles with its operating systems. 1 good, 1 bad, 1 good etc.

Win95 - great
Win98 - not so great
Win98SE - great
WinXP - outstanding once it hit Service pack 2
Vista - absolute garbage
Win 7 - great OS
Win 8 - garbage - 8.1 not much better.

So if things go as they have, 9 should be pretty good.

Over the last few weeks I have been upgrading some of our older client computers to Linux Mint. The clients are happy that the machines run faster, I am happy as I do not have to fight with virus/malware/spyware etc.

Most of these machines are running Intel P4 single core processors with 1gb of RAM. Mint runs just great and comes with all the bells and whistles that the users need. I have been very happy with it so far, and so have the users.

 

[Mike]

If I were forced to run Windows, I think Win 7 would be my choice. I fixed too many XP installs to be real high on it.

And you over-looked Windows ME. Good Lord, talk about a pig system, that was it. It was the stinker between Win98SE and XP.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

Well, after reading all this and talking it over with the IT guy at work, I think the most cost effective solution for the next few years will be the addition of an inexpensive Win 7 desktop to my system along with a USB networking cable and a mouse/kybrd/monitor switch. The two main reasons for this decision are, first, my XP installation is absolutely flawless. It *never* crashes, and every application runs fast enough for everything I do, even when three or four of the "heavy-hitters" are open at once. Second (and to underscore that this is not merely an emotional reaction to a corporation I have long since ceased to respect), upgrading all my apps to Win 7 would cost many thousands of dollars and is simply not feasible. The goal now is to get the job done, regardless of whether it's the most elegant solution, and deal with future issues when and if they arise. If I eventually buy new hardware here or there, say a printer or scanner that isn't supported under XP, I'll install those few applications on the Win 7 machine. Actually, I think I always knew this would happen one day...

Thanks to everyone for the helpful ideas!

Jack

 

[TriodeLuvr]

Mike, one more thing... That was an interesting list of obsolete gadgets and appliances. You forgot to ask if we're still driving cars with no power windows, brakes or steering.

Jack

 

[RPM]

Mike, one more thing... That was an interesting list of obsolete gadgets and appliances. You forgot to ask if we're still driving cars with no power windows, brakes or steering.

Jack

Yes, most all of the T Buckets, don't have any of those options. Most still have carbs, not injection.

On the XP thing we have a small net work at the shop and house. 4 stations in all and we have one stand alone computer all running XP, it is not online at all. We will run it till it won't go no more then we will get it fixed back to XP. We all like XP and it works just fine. For us to change it would be a nightmare. We are not capable of switching to something else, on our own.

 

[Mike]

If an XP machine has no Internet connection, it is safe. Put the machine online and you are risking everything.

Sticking to what works is often a good plan. But the day is coming when continuing to run a network on XP will be like trying to say your rotary-dial phone should be OK, when Ma Bell has other plans for you. Very few of us ever wait until we've driven over the crankshaft to trade cars, so why do we get rid of a running vehicle?

A friend of mine recently smoked the motherboard in an old XP machine. Repairing the machine was not practical, so he picked up a refurbished Win 7 machine. But he had some kind of financial software program that used 3.5 floppies for installation disks. And his Win 7 machine had no floppy drive. I suggested calling the software house, to see if he could get everything on CD-ROM, but the place had gone out of business.

Actually, Ron, paying a Linux-wise tech to come in and get your machines all switched onto a Linux network would be a cheaper move than replacing one of the XP boxes, if it died on you. (Assuming, of course, that you would replace a dead machine with something of decent quality.) And then, you would suddenly be saving money each year, by not having to renew your anti-virus protection. It's really not the nightmare you imagine.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

Mike, I lost the MB in my XP machine about 1-1/2 years ago. Rather than subject myself to the pain of reinstalling Windows and all my apps (weeks of spare time work), I bought an identical MB on the used market. A few weeks later, realizing how lucky I was to have dodged that bullet, I also bought Paragon. This program promised to migrate my entire system to different hardware with little effort if a fatal crash occured again. As it turned out, my new/used MB did crash six months later (same problem - unrecoverable +5V short in one of the chipsets), and when I Googled it, I discovered it was a common failure. So, I went to our local Discount Electronics store and paid $120 for a used 3GHz XP Dell. When I got it home, I swapped in my harddrive, plugged in my USB backup drive and booted on the Paragon recovery CD. I spent less than 15 minutes of my own "real" time (time when I had to be present) reloading the OS and applications, then another five minutes downloading two or three drivers for the new motherboard. When I rebooted, there were absolutely no errors of any kind and the entire migration was done. So, my XP system is now running flawlessly - just as it was before the first MB crash - on a standard Dell PC (one with a hugely successful history of reliability), and there are tens of thousands of used identical replacements available at ridiculously cheap prices. I realize this philosophy isn't practical for someone working with servers or who uses their PC in an environment that requires networking and the latest apps. In my situation, however, I think preserving this system in this way will save me considerable cost, even in the long haul. I will do as you suggest and make sure not to put it online once I have the new Win 7 system in place.

Jack

 

[Keeper]

Yeah I missed ME. Though I ran ME for years with out issue, I was the exception...lol

Jack, what programs do you have that run on XP but not 7? We have some old old apps that run great on 7. Wordperfect, Lotus Notes all sorts of random small programs. Some will give some silly error when installing, but they run just fine.

Paragon is a nice program, they also have some slick HDD programs for recovery and wiping.

 

[Mike]

Yeah I missed ME. Though I ran ME for years with out issue, I was the exception...lol

Ahh, so you were the One. My experience with ME was pretty short-lived. I had it on an HP laptop. After I had owned the laptop for 5 or 6 months, <cough, cough> some bloody idiot <cough> overclocked it and almost set the mother board on fire. There was actually some charring in areas. It was most impressive, until I realized I had torched my own laptop. If you ran ME for years, what did that amount to? Opening Office would take about 4 months in ME, so did you have time to look at a couple of photos, too?

Jack, what programs do you have that run on XP but not 7? We have some old old apps that run great on 7. Wordperfect, Lotus Notes all sorts of random small programs. Some will give some silly error when installing, but they run just fine.

I've always wondered when people say software is tying them to XP. I never had a lick of trouble installing the very same software I had used on XP on Win 7. Office, Photoshop, etc. The only difference I ever saw was generally improved performance, since the Win 7 machine had more resources.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

I haven't tried to load any of these apps under Win 7. My statement is based on anecdotal comments from acquaintances who have made the move, plus the fact that some of the apps go back to Win 95. A few minor ones were lost when I upgraded to XP, and a couple others are running but occasionally do odd things (non-fatal idiosyncrasies clearly related to running under XP). Yes, there's a chance I could move everything to Win 7, but the certainty of doing that and degree of difficulty simply aren't predictable. I would rather buy a second machine for Web use than take the risk of losing/upgrading more applications. In fact, even having to reinstall every app from scratch at this point is more than I'm willing to do. There are too many other demands on my time, especially now that I seem to be under the bucket every weekend. I've already temporarily abandoned two of my favorite interests for this car, so what I need regarding the PC is the most sure-fire solution commensurate with the least amount of cost and time.



Jack

 

[Mike]

Apps going back to a Windows 95, an operating system that lost mainstream support, back in December 2000?!?

That, my friends, is everything that is wrong with running the Windows operating system. Windows users get blinded by the dollar signs attached to every aspect of their computers, so much so that they run software that is nearly two decades old. And then, they delude themselves into thinking that is the best software choice for them.

Jack, you cited Canon's DPP as one of the pieces of software tying you to an outdated operating system. You do realize 2013 releases of DPP can be downloaded at no cost, aye? It's not as if that is a program that cannot be replaced, or can only be replaced at tremendous expense.

In most cases, people are using their computers for little more than pastimes, or toys, if you will. Why spend so much money on toys, when free and open-source solutions are available? Free and open-source solutions that work at least as well, and quite often work better than commercial solutions, mind.

It hurts to think about those times, today, but in the hey-days of the SEO contract work, I was averaging $150/hour income. (I wish I could make 1/10th of that, now... ) The best week I ever had, I worked 20 hours and averaged $188.75/hour. There were isolated instances where I could push that all the way up to $250/hour. At midnight, just last night, I sat down to do some contracted work for a couple of customers. I used this machine to upgrade 9 WordPress blogs. I spent exactly 63 minutes at the task and earned $90 for my time.

This machine is an 8 year-old Dell that my accountant depreciated out, years ago. I am running the Antergos Linux operating system, which cost me
30¢, for the DVD I burned the downloaded .iso to. I used Geany to edit one PHP file in the WordPress package. Cost of Geany - $00.00. I used FileZilla to upload all the packages to all the servers. Cost of FileZilla - $00.00.

God love every one of you that can earn $90/hour, but I suspect most of you cannot. Here I am, running a fully-depreciated computer, with a total software investment of 30¢, and you are telling me you cannot afford to replace Windows 95 programs on a computer that has to be almost as old as this one? Of course you can't, because you opted for the wrong pieces of software in the first place. You allowed yourself to be enslaved by Microsoft. You paid a 'Windows tax' on the computer, when you bought it. And you've been paying over-blown prices for commercial software packages, ever since.

I really do understand the monetary considerations of computers and software. I get all of that, probably better than most people. If I stretch my left hand about 10", it will be resting on the keyboard for another PC. If I stretch my right hand about 15", it will be resting on the keyboard of an iMac. My right leg is leaning against a soft case that contains my laptop. I use my machines to earn money. But my grand total investment in all of the software running on all four of those machines is 90¢. And that amounts to three, different operating systems and all of the programs running on all four machines. The laptop gets very occasional use, but on these three desktops, if a piece of software has been updated in the last 24 hours, my machines are already running it. I cannot afford to run outdated software, with limited capabilities. I need to run modern software that will allow me to do my work as quickly and as efficiently as possible, because my time (sadly enough) is not spent working on a T, rather, my time is money.

But take note of what I said. I said I cannot afford to run outdated software. I have to run modern software, and in many instances, I am running bleeding-edge software. None of which costs me a dime, because neither can I afford to run Windows and be buying Windows software to accomplish what I need to get accomplished. This old machine once ran XP, so I know what you are dealing with. That is why I cannot understand why you are running XP. My machine will dance circles around your XP box, and it will do that with latest and greatest versions of software, without the need of any anti-virus protection schemes (that in most cases, require even more money be spent). And all three of these desktops run, 24/7/365, with Ethernet cables plugged into them. I get the whole point of dedicating a computer to a piece of machinery, but why shouldn't you be able to open a browser and check the latest weather or scores with that very same machine? I won't argue that you cannot afford to buy a newer machine with newer software, but you lose me when you try to justify the cost of running a computer with multi-tasking abilities, for the sole purpose of operating a bench-top mill. For me, that would about like buying a computer to do nothing but turn on my coffee pot, each evening. My computers make money, but I cannot dedicate even one of them to a single task. That mill needs to be interfaced with a laptop you could use for other purposes. Unless, of course, that mill is making chips, 24/7/365 and paying the bills.

The people who run Windows games are the only people who are tied to running Windows, these days. Because Linux computers can do anything else Windows computers can do. They do it more securely and in most cases, they do it faster. When a Linux computer, running a Windows emulation layer, can play Windows games faster than a native Windows computer can, then tell me again why Linux is not a better choice?

I can tell you why more people are not running Linux, even when they fully understand its advantages.

Fear.