Building a 383 stroker - Enter At Your Own Risk

[fletcherson]

Makes sense Indycars, with no oil the friction would eventually start a fire. Like rubbing two sticks together. That's why clean oil is so important.
@ Screaming metal, Does nicking the seals cause the engine to smoke on start up? No smoke on start up means no leaky seals to me.

I think it depends on what the engine is built for. If it's a mild street duty engine, it is likely ok stock, but in a high rpm engine, you need more lubrication to combat the added friction and heat. A little smoke at start up is better than smoking the guides at wot. That's also why bearing and related clearances are looser in hi rpm engines.

 

[2old2fast]

As was mentioned above , seals are designed to allow sufficent oil to the guides , why would anyone "nick" a perfectly good seal ??? Seems counter -intuitive to me
dave
Better read up on using main studs , like RPM said , you'll need to have the block align honed w/ the studs in place..rather than that , it's more important that the main caps properly register in the block & if you wish use new main bolts.. J.M.O.

 

[fletcherson]

As was mentioned above , seals are designed to allow sufficent oil to the guides , why would anyone "nick" a perfectly good seal ??? Seems counter -intuitive to me
dave
Better read up on using main studs , like RPM said , you'll need to have the block align honed w/ the studs in place..rather than that , it's more important that the main caps properly register in the block & if you wish use new main bolts.. J.M.O.

He is right on with the main studs. Same with rod bolts or anything with a machined journal cap. They are machined with the fasteners in place that are intended to be ran. Don't change them unless you intend to resize them with the new fasteners in place. At least that's what I have always been taught. I have mixed feelings about studs in aluminum heads. I once spent several days separating a jaguire head from a block that was seized to the studs and ended up destroying a 1200 core in the process. Once apart, there was minimal corrosion, etc... It was difficult to understand why it was seized. Stainless may be ok, I haven't used them.

 

[Bucketman]

I think it depends on what the engine is built for. If it's a mild street duty engine, it is likely ok stock, but in a high rpm engine, you need more lubrication to combat the added friction and heat. A little smoke at start up is better than smoking the guides at wot. That's also why bearing and related clearances are looser in hi rpm engines.

As I said before I'm not building a race engine. It will have plenty of power for me as I'm building it. I didn't have the mains align bored either. The crank that came out of the block is in good shape as were the bearings. If it had spun a bearing I could see a need to align bore the mains. Or if I was building an 8000 RPM engine. Like 2old2fast said I might as well have bought a crate engine. It would have been a lot cheaper, and basically that's what I will end up with. Maybe a few minor improvements but just a new engine, which is all I'm really after. I do appreciate all the help and I will use a lot of the information but changing from bolts to studs will not make a big enough difference to matter in this engine. If it did all the books would be saying to mark the bolts to make sure they go back in the same spots they came out of. See my point? If the bearing is installed correctly and checked for proper clearance and torqued properly it will all be good. Like 2old2fast said it's more important that the caps seat to the block properly. Trust me guys, if I wanted a 6 second race engine somebody a lot better than me would be building it.
I don't understand how a head seized to a block either, unless it's because it was a Jaguar. The studs should only be installed finger tight, so the worst that could happen is the stud would come out with the nut, instead of the nut coming loose. LOL, glad I'm not building a Jaguar engine.

 

[fletcherson]

As I said before I'm not building a race engine. It will have plenty of power for me as I'm building it. I didn't have the mains align bored either. The crank that came out of the block is in good shape as were the bearings. If it had spun a bearing I could see a need to align bore the mains. Or if I was building an 8000 RPM engine. Like 2old2fast said I might as well have bought a crate engine. It would have been a lot cheaper, and basically that's what I will end up with. Maybe a few minor improvements but just a new engine, which is all I'm really after. I do appreciate all the help and I will use a lot of the information but changing from bolts to studs will not make a big enough difference to matter in this engine. If it did all the books would be saying to mark the bolts to make sure they go back in the same spots they came out of. See my point? If the bearing is installed correctly and checked for proper clearance and torqued properly it will all be good. Trust me guys, if I wanted a 6 second race engine somebody a lot better than me would be building it.
I don't understand how a head seized to a block either, unless it's because it was a Jaguar. They should only be installed finger tight, so the worst that could happen is the stud would come out with the nut, instead of the nut coming loose. LOL, glad I'm not building a Jaguar engine.

That was and will be the only jag engine I work on! It was a favor for a friend... They used steel studs, 16, from memory in a aluminum head. They were a mile long. No way to remove the studs with head in place, head wouldn't move. I had the car hanging by the head with all nuts off, tried penetrating oil, heat, acid around the studs, nothing worked. I even re assembled it and started it with the nuts off the studs... Finally brute force. Ruined the head, mission accomplished. My issue is dis similar metals react and tend to seize. Everyone has their methods and offer their opinions, take what you will, do what you feel is the right thing for your project. There will always be someone with a better or different way or a reason why you didn't do it as well as they can, lol... From my experience. I don't have blocks line honed unless they show uneven wear on the mains, but I don't build race engines, just toys, and not many any more. Back when I was doing it regular, studs and such were a luxury and I was about the bang for the buck thing. I reused most internal hardware, just threw it all in the tank and cleaned it up. I grew up 1 mile from national trails racetrack and my friends and their dads all raced and built engines, etc... In my blood so to speak. I wish I could get rid of the illness, it's expensive! But there are different standards for engines depending on their intended use. If you decide to use the studs, pay attention to the alignment of the main caps. Personally, in a street engine, I would just re use the stock bolts. I do put screens and magnets in to keep the crap out of the oil, that's a good idea for any engine. Cheap insurance if there is a valve train issue, it could save the bearings. I don't understand all of the science involved in the bolt verses stud issue, but I believe it's about the difference in the shank and locating the attached parts and the way the threaded part distorts the female threaded surface when torqued. I just listen to the guys that make and install them for a living and trust that they know a little more than me about it. I have ebough stuff to know and learn about. Lol

 

[Screaming Metal]

Makes sense Indycars, with no oil the friction would eventually start a fire. Like rubbing two sticks together. That's why clean oil is so important.
@ Screaming metal, Does nicking the seals cause the engine to smoke on start up? No smoke on start up means no leaky seals to me.

No, I don't Carve the seal out, I just allow for a little more oil in the guide area. Motors of yesteryear used to fill the valvecovers with a good bit of oil. The newer seals that press on are good seals, but they cut down on lube on this area. I love the old style umbrellas, which did a good job. I need a little more sealing than they offer.
I don't do stuff randomly, I've tested the mods that I have done....

 

[Screaming Metal]

More or less all i do is put a groove into the material thats about .003 wide and about .o1, and not all the way across the seal area....

 

[SRM1952]

As I said before I'm not building a race engine. It will have plenty of power for me as I'm building it. I didn't have the mains align bored either. The crank that came out of the block is in good shape as were the bearings. If it had spun a bearing I could see a need to align bore the mains. Or if I was building an 8000 RPM engine. Like 2old2fast said I might as well have bought a crate engine. It would have been a lot cheaper, and basically that's what I will end up with. Maybe a few minor improvements but just a new engine, which is all I'm really after. I do appreciate all the help and I will use a lot of the information but changing from bolts to studs will not make a big enough difference to matter in this engine. If it did all the books would be saying to mark the bolts to make sure they go back in the same spots they came out of. See my point? If the bearing is installed correctly and checked for proper clearance and torqued properly it will all be good. Like 2old2fast said it's more important that the caps seat to the block properly. Trust me guys, if I wanted a 6 second race engine somebody a lot better than me would be building it.
I don't understand how a head seized to a block either, unless it's because it was a Jaguar. The studs should only be installed finger tight, so the worst that could happen is the stud would come out with the nut, instead of the nut coming loose. LOL, glad I'm not building a Jaguar engine.

Bucketman the mains are different to rods . The main caps are machined to fit the block , the bolts hold them down not centered . Rod bolts help center the cap on the rod ,that why rods must be reconditioned after a bolt change . Alignment on the mains maybe just fine if round and straight for street engines. I built stock car engines for many years and would run at very high rpm for hours . Only a few needed align honing or line boring .Also ran many with main studs with no problems . You have got plenty of good info , you should have a every good engine . The aluminum heads will be a nice addition . Steve

 

[Bucketman]

Seems strange that the head gasket wouldn't keep the iron block separated from the aluminum head and prevent the corrosion. Are you sure you didn't miss one of the bolts. LOL, just kidding. I'm not saying these guys are wrong on what they are telling me. I'm sure they are right. What you said about different standards for different intended use hit the nail on the head. If I was to race this T-bucket I would venture to say a 400 HP engine would kill my transmission and rear end in two passes down the 1/4 mile. I did beef up the transmission somewhat, but I have a stock Chevy rear end. Also I'm using street tires built for smoking, not hooking up. I will be using screens and the magnets in the valley but not going to paint it. I'll be using plastigauge for all the main bearings and rod bearings. The piece of rubber hose to hold the crank is an excellent idea too. I'll be torqueing and retorqueing all bolts and studs 5 times, and using ARP torqueing lubricant. The check list will be used to the best of my ability also. I already changed my order for flat top pistons to 15cc dish pistons. All this and more came from the guys here on T-bucket forum. One more time, thanks to all of you. If any of you think of anything else please don't hesitate to add it to the "building a 383 stroker" thread. I'll bet 5 bucks I'm not the only one learning from this thread. I read all the threads on here and learn something from almost every one.

 

[Bucketman]

Bucketman the mains are different to rods . The main caps are machined to fit the block , the bolts hold them down not centered . Rod bolts help center the cap on the rod ,that why rods must be reconditioned after a bolt change . Alignment on the mains maybe just fine if round and straight for street engines. I built stock car engines for many years and would run at very high rpm for hours . Only a few needed align honing or line boring .Also ran many with main studs with no problems . You have got plenty of good info , you should have a every good engine . The aluminum heads will be a nice addition . Steve

The rods come from Skip White with 12 point ARP bolts installed. I will use my bore gauge to make sure the bore has no "bumps" in the rod and I will have them honed if need be. Just in case. Thanks, Stan

 

[2old2fast]

• Just looked at ARP main stud install , to paraphrase ; clamping forces will change when using main studs , main bores should be checked for distortion & align bored to spec. .. thought I remembered that right
• dave

 

[Bucketman]

If the torque is the same how can the clamping force change? That doesn't make sense. If there is any distortion on the mains it will show up with the plastiguage. Again ARP is talking about an 8000 RPM engine.

 

[2old2fast]

I'll try to explain the best I can ... when you get a torque reading w/ a bolt , factored into that value is the friction of the threads in the block & the head of the bolt against the cap... take away those two forces & replace w/a nut against a hardend washer & cleaner tread engagement plus the moly lube they give you to use & you've decreased the frictional losses that show up as torque [or torque restriction] therefore the clamping value [pressure]is increased although your torque reading is equal...hope this makes sense to you....basically torque value does NOT equal clamping force...
dave
AFA having 400 h.p., you're probably there... I wouldn't worry to much about the trans. or diff. .... remember all those chebbies w BB that were pushing well over 45o hp[ some say closer to 500] trans [even muncies] held up pretty well & the 12 bolt rears took a tremendous amount of abuse

 

[Bucketman]

If that is the case the torque values would be different for studs, because the clamping force needs to be the same for proper gasket compression. So there must be a list of torque specs for studs vs. bolts somewhere. I think I'm going to do a little investigating.
I know the friction coefficient is different on the threads of the bolt compared to the threads of the nut but I say the difference is so small in clamping force it is ignored when listing torque specs.

 

[Bucketman]

The torque specs are the same for bolts and studs. However the reading on a bolt is less accurate due to twisting friction on the thread being greater than on the nut thread. The clamping force is exactly the same on a stud as a bolt if the are equally torqued. However the clamping force on the bolt isn't what the torque wrench says it is due to thread friction. Studs give a repeatable torque spec within 5%. Also when using ARP thread lubricant reduce the torque by 5 to 10 ft/lb.
So basically we are both right. The clamping force is higher on a stud simply because it gives a more accurate torque reading. But the torque reading on a stud gives the proper amount of clamping force, where as the bolt is actually under torqued due to friction. I don't think the difference is critical since using a thread lubricant reduces the torque reading by 5 to 10 ft/lbs.
LOL, now that I go back and read your comment again I realize this is exactly what you said. Oh wait now I get it. Your saying the engineers figured in the friction on the torque spec. so it would be less on a nut than what it calls for on a bolt. My head hurts. I am going to torque at 10 ft/lbs less because of the ARP assembly lube so it should be OK.

 

[2old2fast]

Competition Products has a complete short block 383 , machined & assembled w/good parts for $ 1650 on their "clearance" page ....
dave

 

[fletcherson]

Competition Products has a complete short block 383 , machined & assembled w/good parts for $ 1650 on their "clearance" page ....
dave

That seems pretty cheap. I see them around here from a local builder for about 4500 routinely. But that's a turn key tuned and dyno'd carb to pan alum heads, etc...

 

[fletcherson]

More or less all i do is put a groove into the material thats about .003 wide and about .o1, and not all the way across the seal area....

I see it like the difference between hp bearings with oil grooves top and bottom verses standard duty with only half grooved. Higher rpm and stress requires more oil to keep things wet and cool. I don't remember all af the details, but someone made a tool that grooved the guides to allow more lubrication. I never used one, but from what I remember, it cut a spiral groove, but not all the way through, so it would retain some oil, at least in theory. It must not have been a hit, I haven't heard of anything similar since. I remember talking about it with my friends dad who built and raced round track cars back when stroking an engine required machining stock parts and mixing, matching stuff to get around the rules... Before the aftermarket started offering kits, etc... Right after the wheel was carved from a rock, lol. The aftermarket makes it nice, but I miss the old times of building from actual used parts, when skill and enginuity trumped cash, hot rodding..... But that's just me, I'm sure. I don't miss the greasy, muddy junk yard trips....

 

[SRM1952]

The torque specs are the same for bolts and studs. However the reading on a bolt is less accurate due to twisting friction on the thread being greater than on the nut thread. The clamping force is exactly the same on a stud as a bolt if the are equally torqued. However the clamping force on the bolt isn't what the torque wrench says it is due to thread friction. Studs give a repeatable torque spec within 5%. Also when using ARP thread lubricant reduce the torque by 5 to 10 ft/lb.
So basically we are both right. The clamping force is higher on a stud simply because it gives a more accurate torque reading. But the torque reading on a stud gives the proper amount of clamping force, where as the bolt is actually under torqued due to friction. I don't think the difference is critical since using a thread lubricant reduces the torque reading by 5 to 10 ft/lbs.
LOL, now that I go back and read your comment again I realize this is exactly what you said. Oh wait now I get it. Your saying the engineers figured in the friction on the torque spec. so it would be less on a nut than what it calls for on a bolt. My head hurts. I am going to torque at 10 ft/lbs less because of the ARP assembly lube so it should be OK.

This bolt vs stud thing is a little crazy! Stud are better because 1. less friction with tread and nut/washer. 2. greatest advantage the stud goes deeper into the block structure to make a more even load on the block. Hopefully to anchor the main cap better into more material , less distortion of the block webbing. Bolts don't go into the block as much , this would be hard to do without tailoring each bolt for the each hole. studs can use almost all the hole. You don't tighten studs , they screw just short of the bottom to grab as much thread as possible. They work very good and you can use studs to attach a windage tray to (ARP makes special studs) Studs work on 2 bolt mains well also, give more stability . Raced a 2 bolt block for 3 yrs in stock car until a rod broke , block was fine down low ,the hole in the cylinder wall was the problem . The 2bolts are quite tuff , specially on the street. the torque thing is if it distorts the main journal its way over torqued but most likely something else is way bad..... Good luck your on the right track. Steve

 

[Bucketman]

Competition Products has a complete short block 383 , machined & assembled w/good parts for $ 1650 on their "clearance" page ....
dave

That is way less than I spent for parts. It's what I should have done. Even Jeggs has a 383 stroker short block for $2095 + shipping. That is with flat top pistons. Only other thing they offer is .200 domed pistons. Both would have been too high of a compression ratio with my aluminum heads. I think I will be happy with the engine I'm building because I won't need to change anything when I'm done. (except maybe a different carb. Have a Holly 600 street carb now. Might go to a holly 700 double pumper.)
Yup, 2old2fast, that engine would have worked perfect for a lot less money. Looked exactly like what I'm building except it doesn't have forged pistons and the dish is only 13cc instead of 15cc. For only $700 more than I'm paying for just my rotating assembly. include my machine work and that brings it down to $350 more. Thanks for telling me now. LOL, would have gone that route before I started with what I'm doing now. Oh well, It's only money. Can't take it with me.