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Building a 383 stroker - Enter At Your Own Risk

Discussion in 'Engines and Drivelines' started by Bucketman, Feb 14, 2015.

  1. Bucketman

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    OK let me rephrase that. He said they don't need to be equal and opposite.
     
  2. Mike

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    Apologies for not tackling this a couple days ago, but I've been spending my time counting to ten, repeatedly, and trying to cool down before making any kind of response to this mess.

    Somehow, I feel the irony of this has not been lost on most people.

    You know, my dear, departed mother always warned me to be careful what I wished for, as I was liable to get it. Well, Bucketman, let me fulfill your wish. Whilst you are reading this, I will just go for your coat, as I suspect you'll be stomping out before you get to the end of it.

    You see, you are the biggest source of misinformation in this thread. You don't know from beans, but you keep pretending that you do. Several people have come along to try to show you where you are making big mistakes, and costly mistakes, yet you keep putting them off, because you think you know what's right and what's wrong. And like I said, you don't know from beans.

    Do everyone here a favor, stop with the patronizing comments as to how much you are learning from this thread. You've not learned a bloody thing, you have stubbornly resisted every helpful comment that has been given you, so stop playing the word games.

    Nothing pisses me off any faster than complete dolts asking for help they obviously need, only to have them turn around and argue with those trying to help them. This is the third time I've tried to respond to this absurd rubbish, and if you feel I am being too harsh, all I can say is you should have seen versions one and two.

    Want some examples of your foolishness, Bucketman? And note, I was nice and didn't say 'stupidity', even though that was exactly what I wanted to say.

    Anyone here with half a brain knows better than to finish the cylinders in a block, without having pistons in hand. You think you have the simple explanations for that, which range all the way from measuring pistons is not necessary to finishing cylinders, to you couldn't order parts until you knew what bore the block would be, to you not building a 6 second, 8,000 RPM motor.

    A reputable machinist, a trustworthy machinist, and a competent machinist would have rough-bored the block, would have allowed you the opportunity to order the parts you wanted to use, would have taken the pistons from you, and only then would have finish-honed the block to size. There is only one way to know proper wall clearance is being provided, and that is to measure the pistons and then to measure the cylinders. Without piston dimensions, there is no way to get things right.

    And knock it off with the disclaimer that you are not building a 6 second, 8,000 RPM motor, because wall clearances have to be right in every motor. A piston has no idea what kind of motor it is in, even as much as you try to make it so. A motor is an air pump. That is the end of the story. The motor that won the Daytona 500 is an air pump. The engine that won Top Fuel at Phoenix is an air pump. The engine on a snowblower is an air pump. Every single one of those engines is completely different from the other, until we come to the simple fact of them all being air pumps.

    In order for an air pump to be efficient, several factors must be met. The valves that allow air and fuel to enter the cylinder/s must be capable of sealing, and the pistons must be capable of stabilizing ring packages in absolutely round cylinders. Take away any of those variables and that engine is not going to be efficient. Efficiency is not defined by how fast a vehicle can run, or high high the engine can rev, no matter how stubbornly you try to make it so.

    Let's examine some of your exact quotes, and dispel the foolishness they have created.

    What kind of cement-head buys a camshaft to crutch other parts? Oh. Wait. That is exactly what you are trying to say you have done. The camshaft is the heart of a motor, yet your parameters for camshaft selection were to create enough overlap to drop dynamic compression. You know, had you purchased the correct cylinder heads and pistons, then you could have tailored the camshaft to produce maximum power in a usable power band. But nooooo, you are playing trick-of-the-week, you are buying your camshaft in order to change cylinder pressures. Well, Mr. Trick-Of-The-Week, let me share a very simple lesson with you - trix are for kids.

    Here is one that really left me laughing. Not many people are aware of it, but from April 1985 through August of 2010, one of my career responsibilities was serving as the sales manager of one of the largest valve spring companies in the world. So to see you posting your 'great and tremendous knowledge' <cough, choke> about valve springs was a real hoot. Let's look at your nonsense, and then get it straightened out -

    1. Who says the springs on your heads are only good to .550 lift?

    2. What spring parameters define how much lift those springs can handle? Seat load? Open load? Rate? Coil bind height?

    NHRA Stock Eliminator cars are required to run camshafts with stock lobe lifts. And the Technical Dept. makes sure this rule is observed, completely. And I promise you, those springs on your heads, you know, the springs you say "should work good" on your .490 lift combination, would not live through a single burnout in a Stocker.

    Anyone with half a brain understands that just because two cams have the same lift does not make the cams identical. Clearance ramps might be gentle on one, and non-existent on the other. Ramp speeds might be gentle on one, with the other looking like a brick wall. The springs that would easily control the valvetrain on the gentle profile would break almost immediately on the more aggressive profile.

    For the record, Bucketman's comment that more spring than he needs will cause things to wear out quicker is an old wife's tale. Because the spring a given camshaft/lifter/pushrod/rocker arm/spring retainer/valve combination needs will be the spring that will ensure things do not wear out prematurely. You will note he says those springs "should work", but the truth of the matter is that he hasn't a clue. One of the best ways to select valve springs is to take into account the lifter design (hydraulic, solid, or roller), and then use the stoutest spring that lifter can endure. Because the truth is that a slightly deficient spring is what causes things to wear out, and/or break, because the spring has lost control of the valvetrain.

    Here is yet another of his many gems -

    You read this somewhere? Whilst you were reading, did you read this procedure is only recommended in a race motor, where acceleration will promote oil flow to the rear drain hole, or where a dry sump return line is fitted to the lifter galley?

    Bucketman, I'm not going to go into your silly and circular arguments used to support your choice of using rack and pinion steering, other than to simply observe that about the only way to eliminate bumpsteer with R&P on a straight axle is to mount the rack directly to the axle, itself. Let me know how aesthetically pleasing that becomes.

    Here is another beauty.

    Huh?!?

    Blueprinting applies to blocks made in some years, but not in others? Well, screw me to tears, I guess I need to start reading the same books you are reading, because for the life of me, I have always believed that building everything to certain specifications had naught to do with the year something was manufactured. What next, the moon phase of the day the block was cast? Damn, you've just stumbled across a possible speed secret. I mean, what if blocks have horoscopes?

    And I am real interested to learn how your block has been both blueprinted and balanced. In all my years, I've never seen the procedure to balance a block, so do you have photos of the process? To what weights does one balance a block? Is a block considered as rotating weight, or reciprocating weight?

    And you see, since you had cylinder bores finished without having pistons in hand, you have no way of knowing if wall clearances are correct, so how can you say your block has been blueprinted?

    Here is a perfect analogy, to sum up Bucketman's reasoning on all of this. He built a house on a hill, prior to pouring the foundation, but he knows everything is square and plumb. How does he know that? Well, he didn't bother reading the blueprints for the house, he just got on the phone and called the lumber yard that supplied all the materials, and the salesman assured him everything would work.

    And here is the classic, the single post that stood out above all the others -

    Hold the phone! A forged, 4.030 bore piston, and you think .001 to .0015 clearance is 'perfect'?!? You are proving you have no clue, more and more, as this thread progresses. Stand back, everyone, with .001 clearance on a forged piston, this pig is going to seize a piston in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2...

    425 HP? Show me the dyno sheets.

    I have to laugh when people post this kind of tripe. They have no idea what it costs to purchase a state-of-the-art dyno, and then to build a proper facility for said dyno (water supply, pumps, air intakes, exhaust systems, etc.). But they don't need a dyno, because they can fall asleep, thinking about their new ACME speed catalog, and dream up whatever figure they want.

    What you fail to understand is that we have a little better handle on all of this, only because we have already made all the mistakes you are now making. Even though a handful of people are trying to get you to see that you are making mistake after mistake after mistake, you just keep pressing onward.

    Pray tell, what level of stupidity is required to admit that several people know a sh*t load more than you do, but still mandates that you ignore all of those same people, time and time and time, again?

    My personal opinion on it is that I am not going to waste any more time on you, if you refuse to listen, and refuse to comprehend. Nor am I going to allow you to confound and confuse anyone else on this site with your rubbish. Get on with yer own bad self. Waste a train load of money, because you don't want to listen. Waste a UPS truck full of parts, because you know better than anyone else. But do it quietly, because you are finished with sending people down the wrong path.

    Hear me, and hear me well. You are not going to post any more of this tripe onto my forum, because you are poisoning my well. You stubbornly insist on refusing common-sense help, in most instances because you've already spent the money. But then you turn around and say if something is not right, you'll spend the money later, to change it. Do you realize how preposterous you sound? Your engine-building venture is the most foolhardy and harebrained story I've heard in years.

    Does your engine-building budget include a bag of floor dry, a broom, and a dustpan? Because someone is going to have to clean up the mess that motor is going to make, when it comes apart.

    If you are still here, and I doubt you are, it is time for you to make a decision. Either you quietly stop trying to pretend you are something you are not, or you quietly log out and move on. Personally, I could not care less which avenue you select, but it is going to be one or the other. And note that I said you are going to do it quietly. Frankly, I don't care if your feelings are hurt by the truth, because your utter nonsense has wound me up for days. People like you come in here, beg for help and assistance, then turn around a sh*t all over the people who try to help you? I've zero patience for that kind of rubbish, and it is going to stop, by one means or another. You do whatever you need to do, but be forewarned to do it quietly, as you've already earned yourself a lot more of my attention than you want. And let me save you from asking - no, we do not delete user accounts. This hot mess is your hot mess, so own it.

    Let this thread be a warning to everyone. If you already know everything, if you are going to refuse common-sense advice, then do not come here asking questions, because my knee-jerk reaction will be to eject you. And I am likely not going to get more polite with time. Let those with ears hear.

    I am going to leave this thread on the open forum, as a shining example of how not to ask for help around here. I will edit the subject of the thread, to warn people to wear their waders.
     
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  3. Screaming Metal

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    Well, 8 pages of yamering....we could've done a complete article of how to do this correctly, in about 4. I stood here, just listening....theres a pretty big flow of stuff :eek: coming over the top of my waders....Think I'll have a really good clean bathe now....Is the Bar Open Yet? Mike Must Be A Saint
     
  4. James C

    James C
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    Actually that is an awesome idea if you wouldn't mind. It would be educational for a bunch of us & folks wouldn't have to pick though to get to the nuggets.
     
  5. Mike

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    @Screaming Metal , trust me, I am no saint.

    @James C , I am looking into a possible change that would allow us to have an articles library again. If that happens, and if someone has the spare time to write such an article, that is a possibility. We shall see. But there is a lot more to it than just the code to make it all work. I think there needs to be a way to add comments and questions to these types of articles, but we also need some kind of way to heavily moderate the stupidity and lunacy that these discussions invariably produce.

    Stay tuned...
     
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  6. T-Test

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    Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, just to say you built it. If a person doesn't have the knowledge to accomplish the task at hand, most would research first before shelling out money at the unknown. The best books are out there if people would research. Smokey Yunik had one of the better ones on how to build a SB Chevy engine from stock to full race.

    Everyone has questions about something they don't know about, but if they themselves would research first and then ask the questions about what they do not comprehend, we wouldn't have such as this making you go to these lengths and measures to stop the BS. The question of--- what do you run or what do you think will work is the worst question anyone can ask IMHO as it says to me--- I don't know Jack S##### about what I'm asking you.
     
  7. Screaming Metal

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    Yea T-Test, its not like we've locked out the search feature here. As was said, We've build lot of motors here, and if theres any info needed, all one has to do is search How-to-build-a-383 in SuperChevy, CarCraft, and there are plenty of speciality build books out there like Smokeys, Grumpys, etc....
    Regardless of the money, whether $500 or $5000, theres only 2 ways to build a motor. The right way. or the many wrong ways....
    I still can't believe someone would attempt a build boring and honing a block without the slugs in hand. :whistling: The FUF is about 98% on that one....
    Sorry, I spoke.... as our Mike said, this thing just needs to die now, and go away....
     
  8. Mike

    Mike
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    Screw it, it is like the train wreck you don't really want to see, but you look anyway.

    I've posted about Help Vampires, in the past. A Help Vampire is not a creature that sucks blood, but one that sucks energy from others in a community. Help Vampires are easy to spot, because they are the ones who ask the same, old, and tires questions others have asked. They have absolutely no desire to learn from any source, so they argue every mistake they make as being correct. When I saw the very first post in this thread, I knew it was already headed down the wrong path. First off, this forum is not the place to post photos of a freshly machined block, this forum is the place to discuss engine and driveline topics, a place to ask questions, and a place to discuss theory.

    Secondly, those first three sentences posted were the give-aways.
    It 'looks' like the machine shop did a 'pretty good job'? It just looked that way? How can anyone look at a block and tell the quality of the machining processes?

    And the machine shop only did a 'pretty good job'? Can't you just imagine the pricing on that machine shop's work?

    Customer: "How much to hot tank my block?"

    Machinist: "Well, that depends. We can make that block so clean you will never want to get it dirty, we can give it our standard cleaning, we can do a pretty good job, we can do a pretty awful job, or we can give you directions to the nearest car wash. So, how clean do you want it, and I'll work you up an estimate."

    And finally, which was the frosting on the cake, here was a freshly machined block, but there were no pistons in hand.

    As far as finishing that block prior to ordering pistons, what is the most amazing is that everyone who chimed in on that error was repulsed, with the simple explanation that the engine wasn't going to run 6 seconds, or turn 8,000. Like those are the only two times an engine should have proper wall clearances, and proper bore finishes, for Pete's sake?

    I've been doing this stuff for so long, I get a better-than-average sense of where a thread is going, and/or what a member is getting at, within a post or two. I really do not want to stifle open discussion, even when my brain is screaming at me to lock something down. I rightfully figured someone was going to point out a serious mistake had been made, and that maybe (<--- which is where I screwed the pooch), just maybe, Bucketman would learn the right way to go about things. I should have gone with my knee-jerk reaction, which was to punt the thread into touch, but nooooo, I tried to be nice about it. And look where that got us.

    At the end of the day, every last one of us makes mistakes. No, we don't like when it happens, which is usually far too often, and yes, we would prefer to forget about those mistakes. But the real litmus test is whether or not we have learned from those mistakes. If I screw something up, did I learn how not to screw it up a second time? If we learn from our mistakes, then we can pull a bit of positivity from what appears to be a negative. But for me to make an uneducated mistake, then argue with people who are trying to help me out?!? Once again, I should have punted Bucketman into touch.

    This cluster is on me, and I genuinely apologize for it.

    Years ago, a really good friend had built a brand-new dyno room, for a Superflow 901-T. And we were lined up to be the first customer on the new dyno. We arrived, early on a Saturday morning, and he was still running the silicone exhaust hoses (yeah, no money was spared on this one) for the exhaust. I mean this room was brand-spanking new. On the 3rd or 4th pull, one wall of his newly-painted dyno room was peppered, from floor to ceiling, with pieces of connecting rod. <shrug> The take-away from that dyno session was that we were running pin clearances too tight in the rods. Absolutely, it was an expensive lesson, but we learned the lesson. And poor Dennis got to tell the story about the holes in his dyno room wall to his subsequent dyno customers.

    What people like Bucketman cannot understand is that those pins and those rods had absolutely no idea what kind of engine they were in. Every piston pin and every connecting rod I've ever seen was dumber than a stump. They didn't fail because they were in a engine designed to run 7 seconds, nor did they fail because they were in an engine designed to run 10,000 RPM. They failed because we failed. We failed to provide adequate clearance for those parts to do their jobs. We learned to stroke a pin hole, then let the rod cool before gauging it. We learned close only counts in horseshoes, hand grenades, hydrogen bombs, and pregnancies.

    Concerning information gleaned from books. Whilst there is still a lot of good information in the Jenkins and Yunick books, one has to be pretty careful with reading them. No question, both of those men forgot more than we will ever learn, but the material in those books is sorely dated. The Jenkins book is over 35 years old, and the Yunick book is not far behind it. Look at all the technological advances made in the subsequent years. Simple things like synthetic oils have changed so much. Valve spring technology is a completely different beast, by comparison. Changes with springs have allowed camshaft designs we would never have imagined, 30 years ago.
     
  9. one finger john

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    It amazes me that some one has finally blown a whistle on these icon's do it yourself books.
    All their suggestions were made 30 years ago and at the time and with the information that they had, were perfectly valid and useful. But time marches on. I have stepped on my dick so many times in other forums while using 40 year old technological knowledge (mine), that I have slowly stopped answering questions or offering suggestions to different problems. As Mike has said "Better to be thought a fool ....".
    The members of this forum have gone thru a few different OPs that I really do not believe meant to mislead anyone, that is simply how their brain is wired. Pose a question, do a little Google work (or ask trusted "friends" that still have not supplied an answer to the question) and think that is enough to support what ever thesis they have presented. Oino comes to mind. Met him in a Santa Monica (CA) back yard with his first T build under a blue tarp (After a rain). First, two things occurred to me. One, these cars are REALLY simple, and TWO, here he was building one in the mud. He bothered us with at least two threads that drove lots of people absolutely crazy. I hope he is not "banned", just Mike shutting down the threads for reasons of sanity (probably Mike's own). Thru it all, Oino is probably a nice guy, his brain is wired a little differently.
    Where was I? Oh yes, the Jenkins and Yunick books. If they were alive today (and remember that Jenkins died relatively recently, still building prostock engines) both would concur upon the changes that have happened (it's called ADVANCEMENTS) and really understand why they occurred. The only other person that comes to mind with that vast amount of knowledge would be Joe Sherman. And he will still check in with SPEED TALK to ask questions.
    So maybe it all comes down to the fact that we are all wired differently. Takes all kinds to fill the freeways.

    John
     
  10. Screaming Metal

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    I Totally Agree OFJ! Most anyone with a good tech. background and about 1/2 a ounce of sense can rebuild a motor. They are not that damn difficult. Yes, Grumps and Smokeys info is somewhat dated, but the basics still apply. AS Mike Said- there has been bigtime changes in Springs, Fuels, Piston coatings, clearences, alum. alloys, Oils, etc. Its a totally diff. world. We've more than scrambled a few eggs over at SpeedTalk about all this over the past couple of years.
    EFI didn't really start being taken seriously till about 10 years ago on the street. The Major reason was because it was Too Damn Hard for the ordinary person who didn't know diddly to program these things. Since they can now be used effeciently by just about anyone, and there are kits to fit anything, they are making a BIG impact. NHRA and NASCAR have embraced the technology. Rock Crawlers have enjoyed them for years because of the extreme angles those motors are at sometimes, carbs just won't work, period.
    In a nutshell, theres alot of new technology out there, even for Blowers and Turbos. The basics are the same, just gotta sort thru the old stuff and get to what can be used now.
    Its like most old motors would take 10 psi per 1000rpm for the oilpressure rule. Most Motors will actually go with 5 psi per 1000 rpm. With the lighter, better oils, clearances have gotten smaller to hold the pressure longer on the mains and rods. Things have changed dramatically out there. I used to be able to build a motor and send it to people and not have any problems.
    *(Grump was fast in a straight line. There was none no better. Smokeys motors usually, but not always, ran a bit longer. I remember when they Raced on the beach back in the day. Crinkled up dirty stray hat, a pipe puffing away, glasses on with white coveralls with some grease stains on the stomach, chest, and pocket areas. We'll never see their kind agian....)
    Now, I run them in on a motor stand BEFORE I ship them, that way I know they are correct, and broken in. It also seems like the young uns coming up can't tune as well as us old farts either....
    Well, as OFJ said....it takes all kinds to fill the highways....
     
  11. Mike

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    On 16 February, he posted a profile update that he is "DONE HERE," which leads me to believe that he has removed himself from this community. But no, he has not been banned.
     
  12. 2old2fast

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    I dug this thread up so those who missed our founders take on topics/ people would get an idea of the way things used to be around here , I do so miss that time ....
     
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  13. Neshkoro

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    I loved to read Mike's posts and responses to some of the posts. they were good reading . He was a cool guy! RIP Mike.
     
  14. 409T

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    RIP Mike, you are missed, and thanks 2o2f.
     
  15. Pushrod

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    Some of the so- called "founders" on this site occasionally insult new members questions or comments. Granted, everyone's knowledge of the t bucket hobby is not that of a Norm Grabowski, but that's why folks become members on a site like this. It does nothing for the hobby to be rude to guys that are here to get information and direction. Sure, we all have asked stupid questions at times, but just because you have built top fuel dragster engines or worked on the space shuttle, that doesn't give you the right to be obnoxious. One tip to new members: To avoid being savaged by "know it alls", have a private conversation with some of the really helpful guys on this site...that's what I do now. :thumbsup:
     
  16. 2old2fast

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    Rude ? Obnoxious? Grow a set , maybe you'd feel better if we took sensitivity training (giggle! ) And , FWIW , private conversations do nothing for others " trying to learn "
     
  17. Pushrod

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    You validate my point sir.
     
  18. 2old2fast

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    Glad to help !..
     
  19. Neshkoro

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    Here's another one to stay away from!
     
  20. 409T

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    There is a time and place for most everything and there may be some truth to these words, but posting this here and including reference to a man who has passed and cannot defend himself is not appropriate.
     
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