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Edelbrock E- Street Heads

railroad

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I bought a set of E-Street heads with the 1.90 intakes for a planned engine for a 64 Falcon or maybe a street rod. Recently some of the guys on the Ford web sites are having problems with their heads. I pulled mine down, cleaned the ports and bowls, lapped the valves and reassembled. I have suffled the engine to a back burner for now. It seems the valve springs are bad. One user had 5 springs and retainers go bad. There are some limitations with these heads, 550 max lift and 5500 max rpm. Edel sent 5 replacements and the owner said 7 of the 8 on one head where broken. I don't plan on putting a bad set of spings on and have to change them out due to breakage. I just got off the phone with Edelbrock's tech. He found the tech that had handled the problem and informed my tech that he was running a 512 lift hyd roller cam. My tech informed me I could not run a hyd roller with these heads. I read the brochere and installation instructions to the tech. No where did it mention any restrictions on what lifter to use or not use. I asked him, where that left me. He said, I would have to run hyd flat tappets. These heads were an economy set for bolt on performance. I will not get into quoting what their ads and paper work says. I asked if they had a set of upgraded springs for the heads or recommendation for something I could run a hyd roller. He said, I could machine out the spring seats buy larger springs and retainers. I told him, I could have bought AFR and not had to do anything, but Edel advertised these as bolt on performance heads. I finally got him to take my name and phone number, which I am sure he round filed immmediately. I can afford to upgrade the heads, but that will be about $300 up a wild hogs ars, that I should not have to spend. I may not roll over too easy on this. Hope this saves someone some money and headaches.
 
Step number one - stop guessing
Step number two - stop trusting a tech person on a telephone
Step number three - knock the springs off the heads
Step number four - measure installed height on each valve
Step number five - run a spring to solid height and measure it
Step number six - measure a spring (with a retainer) at installed height on a verified bench tester
Step number seven - measure the same spring (with a retainer) at full open height on a verified bench tester
Step number eight - installed height minus valve lift minus solid height equals coil bind clearance

Now you have some very real data to work with and will be able to answer the necessary questions. Do the springs provide adequate seat load? Do they provide adequate open load? Do they have adequate coil bind clearance?

You should never, ever, never try to purchase things like cams and other valvetrain parts after you have purchased a set of valve springs. Always determine what you are going to have for valve lift and lifter design (hydraulic flat tapper, solid flat tappet, solid roller, etc.) and then see what you have for installed height and spring pocket diameters. Then, and only then, are you going to be ready to purchase a valve spring that will do the job you will require it to do. When you get someone telling you a valve spring is good for X valve lift and X RPM, when they have no possible way of knowing what kind of lifter design you are running, how much installed height you have on your cylinder heads, how much rocker ratio you are using and what kind of valve material you are using, then you know it is time to hang up the phone and find someone who actually understands valve springs.

There are small changes you can make that can have great effect on valve spring life. Always try to realize valve lift from the lobe and not from rocker ratio. An engine with a .466 lobe and a 1.5 rocker ratio will give you a .700 lift combination. You could also do that with a .411 lobe and a 1.7 rocker. The second combination is going to fool the valve springs into thinking they are running on a much larger camshaft. Improper pre-load settings on hydraulic lifters can result in a lifter pumping up and driving a spring into coil bind, causing fatigue fractures of the springs. Inadequate retainer to guide clearances can shock a spring and produce fatigue fractures. A solid flat tappet cam profile (and to a further extent on a roller profile) will generally have higher ramp speeds. The cam designer realizes you can run higher spring loads with the solid lifter design, which means you can control the valves better, so ramp speeds can be picked up to provide more efficient cylinder-filling. What kind of material is the spring coiled from? A chrome silicon spring can take a bit more user abuse than a tool steel spring (which is rapidly becoming a non-existent material option). Run the hardness up on chrome silicon wire, to gain higher spring loads, and it suddenly becomes more fragile than a tool steel. Take a marginal combination with a stainless valve and swap the valves out for titanium versions. Suddenly, your marginal combination has gained much more reliability.

Lifter design is huge in determining valve springs for the application. One of the absolute toughest combinations to work with are the hydraulic rollers, particularly the larger profiles. There are some hydraulic roller profiles out there that are so large, it is impossible to control them. Valve action is so great, we would be looking at a minimum of 185 lbs. - 200 lbs. of seat pressure, if it were a solid roller. Try putting 200 lbs. on a hydraulic roller lifter and let me know how that works out for you. Run a valve spring that will allow the lifter to operate and you suddenly do not have enough load to control the valve. Lifters loft over the nose (often floating the springs solid) and then valves bounce on the seat, rather than closing. If a spring is allowed to float solid, that spring needs to be removed and binned. Coil bind a valve spring and it will not recover. Ever stretch out a garage door spring? How well did it perform afterwards? Valve springs are the same way. A spring that has been coil bound loses free length (it gets shorter). After a time, the spring gets so short it no longer works at closing the valve. I've seen springs that were bound so violently, you could see the wire distortion with the naked eye. Depending on the spring material, as little as .002 surface distortion can spell disaster. (Yes, I know, ovate wire is a horse of a different color.)

Educate yourself on what you already have on hand. For what you are trying to do, your valve springs might be exactly what you need. Then again, they might be pull pins, just waiting to fall out of the grenade. Until you have assembled all the data above, you will never know.

As for "bad sets" of valve springs, you need to understand it isn't real cost-effective to run springs in batches less than 10,000 at a time. If a company had 625 sets of springs that were bad, do you seriously believe you would have managed to ring through to the company? The other 624 customers would likely have had the phone lines tied up. In the 25+ years I spent selling valve springs, we had one run of springs that were bad. The coiler had left a roller line on the springs and it was overlooked. The shot-peening process covered up the line, so it could not be seen. We started shipping springs and within 2-3 days we knew we had a problem, immediately recalled everything that had been shipped and suspended all sales of that part number. On the third acid bath, we finally uncovered the roller line and could see what was happening. For someone to have five springs go bad on one engine, my spidey senses are all tingling. Something was wrong with the application. No company can survive with 31% failure rates on their products. Our warranty numbers were less than one-hundredth of one percent. Were the springs all on the intake side or exhaust side? How much installed height did this individual have on his heads? How much valve lift was he running and with what ratio rocker? (Notice I'm not bothering to ask what maximum RPM was on the engine, because there has never been a spring break on a engine that ever went over 3.500 RPM.) How does a retainer "go bad"? Since it was a street head, I'm assuming it was a steel retainer? I've never seen one break. Ever.

People let little things get into their heads. And I've found the less a person knows about something, the more myth, legend and superstition he will have jammed into his head. I had a customer that lived right down the street from a particular cam manufacturer (who shall also remain nameless), but he would call me for valve springs, because the springs from the cam guy were junk. Little did he know the cam manufacturer was purchasing springs from me and putting them in his own boxes. All he knew was that my springs were great and the cam guy's springs were junk. Okie-dokie, whatever you say. And everyone "knows" how a tool steel spring would lose 20% after the first run or two, right? :wall:

Having been in that business all those years, I know how the game works. A fellow buys the wrong spring for an application, because he obviously knows more than anyone else. He breaks the springs and then pitches a fit about how they are junk springs that came from a bad batch. When warranty is refused, this "expert" then logs onto his favorite InterWebz forum and proclaims to the world about how his set of XYZ valve springs were junk and how XYZ refused to replace them or refund his money. Within two days, people are quoting the "expert" on myriad other sites and before you know it, XYZ is being wrongfully maligned. If RPM or Screaming Metal are reading this one, do either of you remember when the entire world believed Comp Cams roller lifters were junk? Heck, they had one of the better lifters out there, people just refused to listen to Comp's valve spring recommendations. Lifters were lofting, crashing back onto deceleration ramps and pinching bearings. All the "experts" could see were broken lifters and none of them ever took the time to figure out WHY they were breaking. As soon as people started putting some stronger springs on their heads, just as Comp had been telling them, those so-called, junk lifters were working just fine.

Railroad, dollars to doughnuts that some clear, close-up photos of those five broken springs and bad (??) retainers would indicate the springs were wrong for the application. If you know the fellow, try to get some images. If he cannot supply them, have him describe the spring fractures to you. Did the springs break directly across the face of the wire, appearing as if they had been nipped with a cutter? Or do the fractures follow the pitch line of the spring, producing a jagged face break? That alone will tell most of the story.

But the entire bottom line is to know what you have, so you know what you need. Yes, checking things like installed heights and bearing clearances can seem extremely boring. But those are the little things that will step up and bite off your backside, if you do not pay attention.
 
This is one of the main reasons I like this forum. Unlike Mike I haven't worked in the industry all of my life, I didn't go to school to learn the details and have to learn them one at a time through other means. I have always depended on the machine shope to provide this level of information and I guess I have been lucky (or have a good machinist) that has protected me from these types of problems. Bottom line I believe that after reading Mike's post I understand.

Thanks Mike.
 
Jim, I'm always happy to help. I hate to see people end up with a basket full of broken parts, when it can so easily be prevented. Something as simple to figure as coil bind clearance can baffle people, until they see it calculated one time. Then it becomes crystal clear. And it is a dimension that is extremely critical. When people ask what valve spring is best for them, my answer is always the biggest spring you can fit onto the head, that will provide the closed and open loads required and also offer adequate coil bind clearance.

Back in the days when we were still running 18° heads, a pal was pitted next to us at a points meet. He had a very fast A/SM car. He would make a pass, come back and knock the valve covers off and start shimming or replacing springs. He finally walked over and asked why we never pulled the valve covers off our car. "Why pull them off when there is no need," was the answer. He asked often we changed valve springs on the car and Brian told him we changed them when it snowed. And that was the truth. It was extremely rare to ever have to change out a valve spring. Of course cylinder head and camshaft technology are more Star Wars in nature these days and valve spring maintenance is more common. But when a guy has to either shim or change out a valve spring after just one pass, that is a car with A) the wrong springs or B) springs that are installed incorrectly.

The blown alcohol cars are very hard on springs. Let's face it, the standard Hemi valvetrain layout sucks. And trying to make that stuff live at the kind of RPM levels those cars see at the finish line is next to impossible. Super Stock cam profiles are ultra-aggressive with respect to ramp designs and can be hard on springs. The Pro Stock stuff is so far out of hand, it is ridiculous. Those guys are running valve lifts you would struggle to imagine, with extremely long and large valves and what appear to be drain pipes for pushrods. Then they take that stuff and screw it to the moon, too. I keep wondering when they are going to finally reach a point of diminishing return, by continuing to make everything bigger. Increase valve sizes and valve lifts until a larger spring becomes necessary. The, the pushrod suddenly becomes the weak link and starts deflecting too far. So, you put in a bigger pushrod, but that suddenly puts more mass on the shoulder of the spring. So we now need a heavier spring. And about the time we find a way to build a heavier spring, cylinder head technology makes a big jump. And now, camshafts start growing again and valve mass starts climbing, until we need an even heavier spring, that will end up deflecting the pushrods. A couple years back, we started seeing the physical size of valve springs become part of the weakness of the spring. Remember, a spring is not just controlling a valve, valve locks, a retainer, a rocker, a pushrod and a lifter, it also has to control itself. Talk about a Catch-22! An innovative Pro Stock team tried to develop a pneumatic return arrangement a few years back, to eliminate the valve spring entirely, but physical size was the obstacle. If NHRA would ever allow a 4 valve cylinder head, where you could bring valve sizes back down and use pneumatic returns on the valves, you will see a quantum leap forward in HP. Some newer materials are allowing physical valve spring sizes to be reduced, which is helping the problem, but it won't be long before the smart cookies will start having problems there, as well. Race springs were up in the 1.750" diameter range and are now back to a point where 1.550" diameter is pretty large.

A (then) pretty well-known race team from the Indianapolis area had pulled out all the stops to build a no-holds-barred, damn-the-budget, full-speed-ahead Comp car. After a few races, their crew chief came to me, wanting help on trying to get his valve springs to live. It was like passing a Secret Service security check, but he finally allowed me to look under the valve covers, to see if I could spot anything wrong. Within seconds, I could see what was wrong. He had an 18° cylinder head and was running a standard 23° valve cover. The valve springs were getting into th4e valve cover and beating themselves up. You might think a steel valve spring, doing a ritual mating dance at 9,000 RPM would have its own way with a cast, aluminum valve cover, but that is just not the case.

I can remember running valve covers with pockets at the top to clear the tops of the rocker arms and pockets at the bottom to clear the valve springs. We would get stuff moved so far apart, we would lose the valve cover mounting holes. We had one set of valve covers where we drilled the Jesel rocker arm bar and ran two long studs up through the very center of the covers. A well-known race engine builder saw what we had done and asked if we were running modified polyspheric 318 Chrysler cylinder heads. :rofl: It looked odd, but there was no other way to hold the valve covers on.

This video is old as the hills, but take a look at a valve spring on an old Cup engine running at 7,000 RPM on a Spintron -

[media]

Can you imagine coils deflecting that far? Get that engine at the right RPM where the spring wire resonance gets into some bad harmonics and LOOK OUT! :wow:

[media]

Back in the days before YouTube, we had a Spintron video of a spring that was going wild with harmonics. It set up a wave that would travel down the coil to the cylinder head, where it would reflect and travel back up the coil, reflecting off the retainer and back down again. RPM got bumped up a couple hundred and suddenly, there were two waves, moving in opposite directions. Well, there were two waves until they ended up meeting one another, when the spring fractured.
 
Just got off the phone with Dave from Edelbrock. Dave said the E Street head springs ARE compatable with hyd roller cams. The limitations are the 550 lift and 5500 rpm. The seat pressure is 125, max lift pressure 325 and installed height is 1.75. Apparently these limits have no margin of error. I was surprised and appreciated Edelbrock calling back on the situation, but I have no confidence in the springs and will change them before putting the heads on. Being realistic about this, I doubt there is a street performance engine out there that will not see more than 5500 rpm. These heads are probably best suited for a stock engine replacement in a pickup or stock 5.0 motor. I am really torn between selling the heads and going with a different brand or upgrading the springs and valves. Edelbrock does not have a spring upgrade for this head. This head would definitely be better bought bare.

Additional information from the other side of the fence, the dampers in the spring seemed to be what broke, the car was driven by the owners teenage son. I cannot confirm any of this, nor am I interested. If I can find a good spring, I will probably change them out, if not the heads may go on my pick up, when and if if ever quits.
 
The limitations are the 550 lift and 5500 rpm. The seat pressure is 125, max lift pressure 325 and installed height is 1.75.
1. 125 lbs. of seat pressure is extremely marginal at .550" lift. But if you're stuck with a hydraulic lifter, the lifter becomes your obstacle. With a seat load like that, I would be looking to stay below .500" lift.

2. 325 lbs. open is on the scary side of marginal at .550" lift. Another 15-25 lbs of open load would still be safe with a hydraulic lifter, but still very low for .550" lift.

3. Did the fellow at Edelbrock tell you your installed height was 1.750", or is that what you have actually measured? For him to expect that each and every head casting is machined exactly the same and that every valve they have purchased is exactly the same length is pretty cavalier, when you stop to think about it. Just be sure you measure everything, so you know what you really have. Remember, you're dealing with a critical clearance here and a couple thousandths in cylinder head machining, added to a couple thousandths in retainer machining, added to a couple thousandths in lock machining, added to a couple thousandths in valve machining can start weighing against you, before you know it. Everyone will be quick to say the dimensions they quote are nominal and if all of the pieces fall on the shy side of things and you're already tight on coil bind clearance, look where you're going to end up. You really want to measure this valve, in this pocket, with this retainer and these locks, so you will know what you have across the board. That is the only way you can properly set up the valve springs, in the first place.

Additional information from the other side of the fence, the dampers in the spring seemed to be what broke, the car was driven by the owners teenage son.
In a two piece combination, using one round coil and one flat, ribbon coil, the ribbon (or dampner) is generally the first piece to go solid. Street car that likely had a hydraulic lifter camshaft and the teen probably zinged the motor out of sight. How a broken flat-wound could ever cause a retainer to fail is beyond me. I can understand your disinterest in another man's problems, but do you now see how easy it is for a product to get trashed by the uneducated? You would be amazed at how many people have griped about broken camshafts, but always fail to mention the broken rod that took the camshaft out in the first place.

i will agree they are shipping what is meant to be a high performance head out with a extremely marginal valve spring on it. But that's what John Q. Public gets when he wants to do one-size-fits-all shopping. If they were to install a more respectable valve spring, they would have problems with people scrubbing the lobes off cams. If they offered the same head with a stronger spring as a different part number, the wish book shoppers would always order the cheaper option anyway. Like I said earlier, if a manufacturer says .500" lift is maximum, surely an additional .035" can't make any real difference, can it?

My example for checking and double-checking everything is a rod bearing I ended up with from a very well-recognized bearing manufacturer. This was a narrowed bearing for a small journal pin on a small Chevy. The bearing itself measures 0.7920", from side to side. The bearing also had .0007" change in thickness across its length. Where are you going to set your bearing clearance with that particular bearing? If you're trying to set clearances at 0.0024" and you measure the thick side of the bearing, all is well and good. But what of the thin side, which would end up with 0.0031" clearance. And you know what really makes me cringe? The knowledge that most people don't even consider bearing clearances, when assembling an engine. The machinist said the crank had been turned 0.010" and he has never made a mistake in his life. And the bearing manufacturer sold me a set of 0.010" bearings and they've never made a mistake in their lives either. So why should we bother checking their work? :rolleyes:
 
My example for checking and double-checking everything is a rod bearing I ended up with from a very well-recognized bearing manufacturer. This was a narrowed bearing for a small journal pin on a small Chevy. The bearing itself measures 0.7920", from side to side. The bearing also had .0007" change in thickness across its length. Where are you going to set your bearing clearance with that particular bearing? If you're trying to set clearances at 0.0024" and you measure the thick side of the bearing, all is well and good. But what of the thin side, which would end up with 0.0031" clearance. And you know what really makes me cringe? The knowledge that most people don't even consider bearing clearances, when assembling an engine. The machinist said the crank had been turned 0.010" and he has never made a mistake in his life. And the bearing manufacturer sold me a set of 0.010" bearings and they've never made a mistake in their lives either. So why should we bother checking their work? :rolleyes:


You are getting pretty good checking that stuff with a dial caliper. LoL........................You forgot to mention the diameter of the bore on the rod. Seems you get .0005 to play with there if it is on the money. Thos specs can stack either way, too loose or too tight.

On those springs that does not seem anywhere near enough pressure. With a street roller I would be thinking 150 on the seat and close to 400 open. I remember the Crane cam we ran, we used their triple spring at 225 seat and 610 open with a .600 roller. Titanium retainer and the Manley 2.050 valve with the 5/16 stem. Oh and we ran the rev kit also. You could easily spend a couple of hours assembling the springs to get them all right on the money.
 
Mike,

Your first post is almost word for word what I was going to say...... just kidding....yeah right, like I would know that much about valve springs.
Mike, both of your posts are excellent, thanks. And a great thread.

I'm trying to save up for Edelbrock heads, but I'm just too far away from investing in something that will do little more than give me bragging rights for the next year. I hope it isn't any longer.....
 
What about the cam "kits"? I bought a comp cams kit that came with the cam, lifters, springs, retainers and all the other fun stuff.

My machine shop guy would not install anything until I brought the cam card to him so he could check the lift and stuff.

Is that a better way to go?
 
What about the cam "kits"? I bought a comp cams kit that came with the cam, lifters, springs, retainers and all the other fun stuff.

My machine shop guy would not install anything until I brought the cam card to him so he could check the lift and stuff.

Is that a better way to go?
While I'm not claiming to be an engine Guru, I think a matched set is the best way to go for a novice. On my jet boat big block chevy it is all Isky roller and matched to where it was going.....just my opinion.....ruggs
 
Someone who has addressed the E Street SBF spring issue uses spring package GEN4XL-LSX Valve Spring Kit. Anyone familar with this spring and who makes it? It may be a GM part. I am waiting on a reply from him on who makes or sells it. I found a Manley and Comp Products spring set (probably Howards) Both springs are still light on the seat. The Manley is #130 at 1.75" and the Comp is #120 at 1.8" I'm trying to get some spring specs for the cam.
 
You are getting pretty good checking that stuff with a dial caliper.
:pfff: Who can afford a dial caliper? We're talking Plastigauge, here. Finest kind, right? :rofl:

All kidding aside, a lot of issues could be saved if people would go so far as to actually use Plastigauge, rather than nothing at all.

My machine shop guy would not install anything until I brought the cam card to him so he could check the lift and stuff.

Is that a better way to go?
There is no possible way to assemble a cylinder head without knowing how much valve lift the combination will have. How could you ever know if you had adequate coil bind clearance, if you didn't know how far you were lifting the valve? Coil bind clearance is the unknown quantity, until you deduct spring solid height and valve lift from installed height.

railroad, have you talked with your lifter manufacturer, to see what they recommend as maximum spring loads? You will need to remain within their recommendations. I'm guessing most manufacturers are going to start getting queasy if you try to venture above 400 lbs. open load. You could likely get away with as much as 190 - 200 lbs. on the seat, but a spring that heavy would have to have a pretty lame rate to only pick up 200 lbs. at full lift.

If you can get away with more load, remember you can often shim a spring to get the load you desire. Just because the XYZ spring company lists a spring as having 130 lbs. @ 1.700" doesn't mean that is where you need (or will necessarily want) to set things up. That's merely a checking number, so you can compare the XYZ spring to an ABC spring. Depending on what you have for valve lift and lifter design, you might get away with putting a 0.015" shim down a getting the exact pressure you want. You just need to bear in mind that you will also be increasing open load, so that number will need to be checked. And you will also be giving up coil bind clearance, so you need to verify your new clearance number will still be adequate. You don't always approach spring selection from a cataloged checking height.
 
The E Street SBF heads valves and springs specs are more than the cam I am considering. 531/515, 1900 to 5600 rpm. 100 rpm over Edelbrocks limit. I have not had a problem yet, but with the on going issues, I felt like I needed to talk to Edel and that's where things went down hill. I have ordered one Manley spring with the right OD and install ht, seat and open pressure. I want to check the ID clearance on the guide and seal and see if the retainer clears and fits. I can pick up some shims local. My brother and another guy cubbed under a guy named Vasulnook (sp) who did some NASCAR heads long ago. All the spring scales, hard seat grinder and valve machine are at hand. I got myself in this situation by being the tight wad I am. I can actually afford the better heads, but always looking to go cheap and it bit me. No biggey, If the Manley valves work, I'll be fixed for less than $100, just some bench time and leg work. Thanks for the good advise.
 
railroad, is that camshaft hydraulic flat tappet of hydraulic roller? If it is a hydraulic roller, the K-Motion K-750 spring would work a treat for you. 130 lbs @ 1.700" and you would be in the 385 lbs. range at full lift. You would still have 0.119" coil bind clearance, which is plenty. The only possible issue would be the spring pocket in your heads. That spring is 1.265" diameter. If your heads are cut for a 1.437" spring, you would need a locater to keep the spring parallel with the valve stem.

If you're using a hydraulic flat tappet, that would be too much open load for the lifter,
 
The heads are cut for a 1.25 OD spring. Edelbrock spec sheet shows their installed spring as 1.26. I may end up cutting the heads. I am sure there is a cutter laying around the shop. I sure would like to try the K motion. The cam is a hyd roller.
 
I'm sure the 750 will drop right into that pocket. And loads on the spring would work out well for that particular camshaft. Whatever you decide, do not fall into the trap of trying use to use a K-700, as you most certainly will experience almost immediate fatigue failures. The 700 is sells for considerably less money and if you run the math on the spring, it will appear the spring will work out for you. The 700 will not work, full stop. Spend the money and purchase the right spring.

One thing to be keep in mind. H-11 tool steel is virtually non-existent and they are transitioning all of their tool steel part numbers over to high-hardness chrome silicon wire. I've no idea of where they are in that transition process, but the K-750 is an extremely popular part number and they may have exhausted all of their H-11 wire for that spring. If you do get a set of the tool steel springs, remember they want L-O-T-S of warm oil. Don't install anything to restrict oil to the top end. You won't want to dash out the door, jump in the T, light it off and stand on it to drive away. Give it a few minutes to get oil flowing and to get some temperature built up. From there, the material will be tough as nails. The chrome silicon wire will be a bit more forgiving, but ensuring abundant oil flow over a spring is never going to be a bad thing.
 
Just canceled the one Manley valve spring, on back order anyway, and ordered a set of K-750s in stock, 2 days to me.

Just a shot in the dark, which material I will get, like you said.

thanks,
 

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