billretiree
New Member
I have read some articles on which oil is safe to use in older engines due to the reduced amounts ZDDP. I am running a 1972 Chevy 350 engine in my T, I am curious to see what oil others are using in these older engines.
engine oil
- Thread starter billretiree
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billretiree
New Member
Doesn't 10w30 mean that it is 10 weight oil with polymers added so that it won't thin due to heat, etc. faster than 30w oil would? Same for say 20w50. It is 20 weight oil that won't thin faster than 50 weight oil, and so on? If that is the case, I would wonder about sticking 50 weight oil in an engine that was expecting 10w. Just my .02.
Jeff
bobby6319
Member
even your truck oil now have the zinc taken out because of the new emissions on trucks plus they run rollers now just add the comp cam break in oil every oil change thats what i do
Screaming Metal
Active Member
I'm running a 392 Hemi the a 8-71 Blower, with 2- 4BBL.s, roller cam.....and a high vol. oil pump, with a modified moroso pan....my oil is 20w50 Valvoline Racing Oil with some additives...to keep the friction low and wear down, since blowers create alot of heat.
Ted Brown
Member
I have also been wondering about which oil would be best with a Flat tappet cam and lifters... Here is some reading about different oils and filters...
I am thinking of going to Synthetic oil..
---
Oil and Filters and oil info...
Regular Replacement Filters
Manufacturer Filters
This is usually the best choice for your vehicle.
Aftermarket Filters
These are filters made by companies like Fram,Wix, Motorcraft, Lee, AC/Delco, Bosch, Casite, Hastings, Pennzoil, Valvoline, and Purolator. The quality of these filters varies greatly. In many cases the auto manufacturer uses these filters themselves. Private label filters are made by these companies as well.
Trade Brand Filters
These are filters made for the oil change industry. They are actually no worse than the poorer quality aftermarket filters. You can't buy these at an auto parts store but you'll see them used at many of the quick oil change places.
Premium Filters
Some manufacturers of synthetic oil also make so-called synthetic filters. These are high priced and have not been proven to provide any benefit over a high quality manufacturer of aftermarket unit.
In-depth reviews on Oil filters
http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html
http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html
This guy was threatened with legal action by a major oil filter manufacturer, so you know he's on the right track. This resulted in the division of his web site into a fact page and an opinion page. I'm sorry, but I can't disclose the name of the major oil filter manufacturer.
Bypass Filters
Bypass filters have been used on diesel truck engines for years. On cars they are a messy solution to a non-problem. Forget it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Synthetic Oil
Advantages of Synthetic
Synthetic oil was originally developed for high performance racing engines. Mobil tried to popularize synthetic oil for passenger vehicles back in the early 1970's. At the time, Mobil was promoting 20K or 25K oil changes with synthetic, but they soon backed down from this. Synthetic oil is a good choice if you have a vehicle with a high performance engine (in fact synthetic is required for many of these engines). It is also a good choice if your vehicle is operated in extremely cold climates. It has higher resistance to breakdown caused by heat and it flows better in extreme cold. Unfortunately for the synthetic oil industry there is virtually no advantage to using synthetic oil in a non-high performance engine that is operated in moderate climates. You probably could go a bit longer between oil changes with a synthetic, i.e. following the normal service schedule even if you fall into the severe service category, but I wouldn't advise this. In short, synthetic may give you the peace of mind of knowing that you are using an oil that is far better than necessary for your vehicle, but it won't reduce wear or extend the life of the engine. The mistake some people make it to wrongly extrapolate these benefits onto normal engines operated in mild climates, with the ultimate lack of any knowledge being manifested with statements such as "synthetics provide 'Peace of Mind,' or 'Cheap Insurance,'" or other such nonsense.
Extended Change Intervals
Most manufacturers of synthetic oil advise users to not exceed the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval. Part of this is self interest (they don't want to be liable for any damage) but the real reason is that synthetic oil, while it does have certain advantages, still becomes contaminated.
Be extremely wary of synthetic oil companies that offer to pay for your repairs if it is determined that their oil and their extended change interval recommendation caused the problem. Think for a moment of the incredible hassle you would have to go through to prove responsibility for an engine problem. Who would pay your legal bills? Who would pay for replacement transportation during the battle? The more bizarre the warranty the poorer the product is a good rule of thumb.
API Certification, Phosphorus & ZDDP
Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection. Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.
Amsoil
Amsoil actually makes some very good products. The negative image of Amsoil is due to their distribution method (MLM) and their marketing approach. If Amsoil products were competitively priced with Mobil 1 and other synthetics, and if I could buy them in a store, I would not hesitate to use their XL-7500 synthetic as opposed to Mobil 1. What upsets me about Amsoil is that they didn't disclose until recently (and then it was by accident) the real reason that their oils (except for XL-7500) are not API certified. In the past they came up with all sorts of bizarre excuses about the reason for their lack of API certification and this greatly contributed to the distrust that people have of the company.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine Flushes--The Latest Scam
Engine flushes pump heated solvent through your engine, supposedly to wash away sludge. But regular oil changes with detergent oil already take care of the sludge problem. And if you actually have an engine that is full of sludge the last thing you want to do is do an engine flush because the sludge can clog the oil passages and destroy the engine completely. These flushes are completely unnecessary. All they do is wash the money out of your wallet. As Click and Clack state: "This is what's known in the business as a "profit center." Something the garage can use to beef up the amount each person spends per visit. So unless you've got a very old car, and are trying to solve a specific, sludge- or carbon-related-problem, I'd skip the R-2000." These engine flushes usually sell for about $130. The victims are people that think that they are doing something nice for their vehicle by cleaning the engine. In fact a dealer or repair shop that tries to sell you an engine flush should be avoided for all service because they are untrustworthy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check Your Oil
Check your oil level at least every other fill-up. It's easy to become complacent about this, especially because few modern vehicles burn much oil. However there are still a few vehicles that have serious oil burning problems and owners have wrecked their engines by running out of oil.
I am thinking of going to Synthetic oil..
---
Oil and Filters and oil info...
Regular Replacement Filters
Manufacturer Filters
This is usually the best choice for your vehicle.
Aftermarket Filters
These are filters made by companies like Fram,Wix, Motorcraft, Lee, AC/Delco, Bosch, Casite, Hastings, Pennzoil, Valvoline, and Purolator. The quality of these filters varies greatly. In many cases the auto manufacturer uses these filters themselves. Private label filters are made by these companies as well.
Trade Brand Filters
These are filters made for the oil change industry. They are actually no worse than the poorer quality aftermarket filters. You can't buy these at an auto parts store but you'll see them used at many of the quick oil change places.
Premium Filters
Some manufacturers of synthetic oil also make so-called synthetic filters. These are high priced and have not been proven to provide any benefit over a high quality manufacturer of aftermarket unit.
In-depth reviews on Oil filters
http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html
http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilters.html
This guy was threatened with legal action by a major oil filter manufacturer, so you know he's on the right track. This resulted in the division of his web site into a fact page and an opinion page. I'm sorry, but I can't disclose the name of the major oil filter manufacturer.
Bypass Filters
Bypass filters have been used on diesel truck engines for years. On cars they are a messy solution to a non-problem. Forget it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Synthetic Oil
Advantages of Synthetic
Synthetic oil was originally developed for high performance racing engines. Mobil tried to popularize synthetic oil for passenger vehicles back in the early 1970's. At the time, Mobil was promoting 20K or 25K oil changes with synthetic, but they soon backed down from this. Synthetic oil is a good choice if you have a vehicle with a high performance engine (in fact synthetic is required for many of these engines). It is also a good choice if your vehicle is operated in extremely cold climates. It has higher resistance to breakdown caused by heat and it flows better in extreme cold. Unfortunately for the synthetic oil industry there is virtually no advantage to using synthetic oil in a non-high performance engine that is operated in moderate climates. You probably could go a bit longer between oil changes with a synthetic, i.e. following the normal service schedule even if you fall into the severe service category, but I wouldn't advise this. In short, synthetic may give you the peace of mind of knowing that you are using an oil that is far better than necessary for your vehicle, but it won't reduce wear or extend the life of the engine. The mistake some people make it to wrongly extrapolate these benefits onto normal engines operated in mild climates, with the ultimate lack of any knowledge being manifested with statements such as "synthetics provide 'Peace of Mind,' or 'Cheap Insurance,'" or other such nonsense.
Extended Change Intervals
Most manufacturers of synthetic oil advise users to not exceed the manufacturer's recommended oil change interval. Part of this is self interest (they don't want to be liable for any damage) but the real reason is that synthetic oil, while it does have certain advantages, still becomes contaminated.
Be extremely wary of synthetic oil companies that offer to pay for your repairs if it is determined that their oil and their extended change interval recommendation caused the problem. Think for a moment of the incredible hassle you would have to go through to prove responsibility for an engine problem. Who would pay your legal bills? Who would pay for replacement transportation during the battle? The more bizarre the warranty the poorer the product is a good rule of thumb.
API Certification, Phosphorus & ZDDP
Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates)). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection. Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.
Amsoil
Amsoil actually makes some very good products. The negative image of Amsoil is due to their distribution method (MLM) and their marketing approach. If Amsoil products were competitively priced with Mobil 1 and other synthetics, and if I could buy them in a store, I would not hesitate to use their XL-7500 synthetic as opposed to Mobil 1. What upsets me about Amsoil is that they didn't disclose until recently (and then it was by accident) the real reason that their oils (except for XL-7500) are not API certified. In the past they came up with all sorts of bizarre excuses about the reason for their lack of API certification and this greatly contributed to the distrust that people have of the company.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine Flushes--The Latest Scam
Engine flushes pump heated solvent through your engine, supposedly to wash away sludge. But regular oil changes with detergent oil already take care of the sludge problem. And if you actually have an engine that is full of sludge the last thing you want to do is do an engine flush because the sludge can clog the oil passages and destroy the engine completely. These flushes are completely unnecessary. All they do is wash the money out of your wallet. As Click and Clack state: "This is what's known in the business as a "profit center." Something the garage can use to beef up the amount each person spends per visit. So unless you've got a very old car, and are trying to solve a specific, sludge- or carbon-related-problem, I'd skip the R-2000." These engine flushes usually sell for about $130. The victims are people that think that they are doing something nice for their vehicle by cleaning the engine. In fact a dealer or repair shop that tries to sell you an engine flush should be avoided for all service because they are untrustworthy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check Your Oil
Check your oil level at least every other fill-up. It's easy to become complacent about this, especially because few modern vehicles burn much oil. However there are still a few vehicles that have serious oil burning problems and owners have wrecked their engines by running out of oil.
Screaming Metal
Active Member
Alot of good info Ted! Yes, the synth/ is the way to go now....I've been using a synth blend, which I like...I cut alot of oilfilters open and look at whats going on in the oil system dept. I find all kinds of glittery mess in there sometimes.
With the synths withstanding heat better and having a stronger 'film strength', and not breaking down as much....I'm gonna be switching soon myself.
With the synths withstanding heat better and having a stronger 'film strength', and not breaking down as much....I'm gonna be switching soon myself.
Chief-T
Member
What is required to switch from reg oil to syn????
ellis8500
Member
In order to switch from regular oil to synthetic oil, you have to do two very important things. If you do not do them in the right order, you will probably wreck your engine.
1.) Drain the oil from your engine and remove filter.
2.) Fill to recommended level with synthetic oil and install new filter.
That's it. All done.
Now, if you read the article above, you would know that synthetic oil in a normal engine will gain you nothing. It will cost more. That's it. If you want the benefits of synthetic without the full cost, use a synthetic blend oil. Ford now recommends 7,500 mile change intervals with their synthetic blend oil. I have a Ford V6 4.0L with 102K on it. Went 7K miles recently without using any oil. I've used the Ford Syn-Blend oil most of it's life. I tried some full syn early on to check for MPG improvement...didn't see any difference.
1.) Drain the oil from your engine and remove filter.
2.) Fill to recommended level with synthetic oil and install new filter.
That's it. All done.
Now, if you read the article above, you would know that synthetic oil in a normal engine will gain you nothing. It will cost more. That's it. If you want the benefits of synthetic without the full cost, use a synthetic blend oil. Ford now recommends 7,500 mile change intervals with their synthetic blend oil. I have a Ford V6 4.0L with 102K on it. Went 7K miles recently without using any oil. I've used the Ford Syn-Blend oil most of it's life. I tried some full syn early on to check for MPG improvement...didn't see any difference.
Chief-T
Member
My only concern is cam/lifter wear in my '78 block, '65 heads, Lunati cam and lifters. Do you still need to add zinc with synthetic oil???
ellis8500
Member
Don't use synthetic oil. For the proper zinc level in an older engine, use Rotella T straight 30 weight oil. I don't know how you drive your T, but most are not driven that much nor that hard where special purpose oil is needed. I believe we've been "taught" by the marketing folks to pay way too much attention to oil. The Rotella oil works fine in diesel engines running well over 200K miles. Many Bucket owners use it. Cam manufacturers recommend it for non-roller cams. It's not expensive.
Rotella T does not have the same amount of zddp in it that it once had by a long shot. Diesel engines are now getting hammered by the epa just like the gas motors, so bye-bye zinc in their oil also. It's good oil, but it no longer has any better protection that oils made for gas engines. "off road" race oils and a very select group of "specialty" oils are the only hope now.
Russ
ellis8500
Member
Russ,
You are correct when you refer to the Rotella T Multi-grade oils that meet API CJ specs. The Rotella T1 straight grade 30, 40 & 50 weight oils are only rated to API CF which is a higher ZDDP oil for older engines. It is easy to confuse them. Most of us now are conditioned to use multi-grade oils since we use our vehicles throughout the year. The only benefit of multi-grade is the temperature-viscosity relationship. If the weather is always warm, 30W is good to go. I don't plan to drive my 27T when it's 20 outside. Maybe in the 30's with warm clothing. Even then, 30W oil would be OK. Not many of us remember the days when we had to change our oil, plugs and points just before winter set in...if ya wanted to get the thing started on a cold day.
You are correct when you refer to the Rotella T Multi-grade oils that meet API CJ specs. The Rotella T1 straight grade 30, 40 & 50 weight oils are only rated to API CF which is a higher ZDDP oil for older engines. It is easy to confuse them. Most of us now are conditioned to use multi-grade oils since we use our vehicles throughout the year. The only benefit of multi-grade is the temperature-viscosity relationship. If the weather is always warm, 30W is good to go. I don't plan to drive my 27T when it's 20 outside. Maybe in the 30's with warm clothing. Even then, 30W oil would be OK. Not many of us remember the days when we had to change our oil, plugs and points just before winter set in...if ya wanted to get the thing started on a cold day.
If you run regular oil then you us a zinc additive. If you run the more expensive synthetic oil you don't add zinc additive. Mack trucks using there reg oil in the trans has a 500K warrany. If you use there synthetic then its 1 mil. We had a 94 Ford Explorer that had 400k when we sold it.We used synthetic oil in everthing. It now has over 500K and NOTHING has ever been done to the engine,trans or rearend.
Gerry
Well-Known Member
The only thing I have to offer is that semi and fully synthetic DO NOT mix. Our trans fluid supplier has stated that mixing the two will create sludge which will harm the trans. They have gone so far as to put this in writing. Not sure if its the same for engine oil, but i would not take the chance. If you are changing from one to the other make sure the whole oil sytem is clear of the original oil.
Just as a side note we are getting to the point with trans fluid that each make has its own recipe. We used to have 2 fluids, semi and fully synthetic. Now we keep well over 5 different fluids. Most notable one is for the Audi 01J trans where NO trans fluid maker will supply fluid for this trans. It has to be Audi own brand at 16 bucks per litre (thats around 15 buck a qrt. Frightening. BMW, Jag and a couple of other have gone the same way.
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