Rods n' Rhodies in Florence Oregon

[Corley]

It's a fantastic invitational car show here in Florence Oregon this weekend, looks like my neighbor will be winning best in show for his '24 Packard roadster with Viper power. (Of course I am biased..)

There are only 3 'T' buckets, and all 3 are missing 4 bar suspension in favor of hair pin and split wishbone, front and rear. Two even have tubeular front axles with radious rods. One has even bent the threaded area of his 1/2" heim joints for alignment! What am I missing here? This is one of the most critical parts of the 'T'! I almost feel like going on a campaign to get these guys to see the danger in this setup. Maybe there needs to be a show ruling against hairpin suspension or something. People need to realize what happens when they go over a bump, and the forces put on those parts, the axle, and the frame when you have radious rod connections. I'm sorry, but I feel that is just plain dangerous, and since it only saves one rod end, why do it?

I hope this is not taken as inflamitory, I just want people to think about that unsafe condition and the relatively simple fix...

 

[RPM]

It's a fantastic invitational car show here in Florence Oregon this weekend, looks like my neighbor will be winning best in show for his '24 Packard roadster with Viper power. (Of course I am biased..)

There are only 3 'T' buckets, and all 3 are missing 4 bar suspension in favor of hair pin and split wishbone, front and rear. Two even have tubeular front axles with radious rods. One has even bent the threaded area of his 1/2" heim joints for alignment! What am I missing here? This is one of the most critical parts of the 'T'! I almost feel like going on a campaign to get these guys to see the danger in this setup. Maybe there needs to be a show ruling against hairpin suspension or something. People need to realize what happens when they go over a bump, and the forces put on those parts, the axle, and the frame when you have radious rod connections. I'm sorry, but I feel that is just plain dangerous, and since it only saves one rod end, why do it?

I hope this is not taken as inflamitory, I just want people to think about that unsafe condition and the relatively simple fix...

Guys been doing it this way for probably 80 years with almost no failures. There are probably just as many ball joint failures in everyday drivers. There is just not much weight in these cars to get all excited about.

 

[Ted Brown]

Guys been doing it this way for probably 80 years with almost no failures. There are probably just as many ball joint failures in everyday drivers. There is just not much weight in these cars to get all excited about.

Besides that, using Heim joints for those kinds of suspension parts is a no no in itself... fine for single type rods, 4 bar and tie rods and Panhard bars and Watts links, but not hair pin, lift type bars, that is where the big 4 bar bushings come into play, this allows for that needed movement, no matter how small it seems like, that takes most of the stress off of those type of radius rods and the axle... Let's face it, (most) T Buckets are not built for off road type driving, where they need a ton of suspension travel, like the axle up 6 inches on one side and down on the other, although mine has been that way many times with no failure in over 200,000 miles of very hard riving, as I do that for a reason, if I can break it, I change it! and the next customer gets the benefit from my hard driving... Just drive and think at the same time...

 

[Corley]

Let's face it, (most) T Buckets are not built for off road type driving, where they need a ton of suspension travel, like the axle up 6 inches on one side and down on the other

Ted,
I don't think I can agree on that point, think about just driving into your typical driveway in a city, one wheel goes up quite a way, the other is still on the street, so it's down. Very often, that can be in excess of 6" of difference. I'm just saying that it takes so little more to go 4 bar, and that completely elimnates the problem. I've seen several pictures of broken axles, broken radious rods, etc. I don't know if people don't understand the mechanics of it or why they would ever opt for a split wishbone or radious rods. I suspect a lot of guys just never really thought about it that much when they built the machine, and the book says use radious rods, or they saw them on another car so they do that.

It just seems prudent to encourage good design,
Corley

 

[PzT]

I was at Florence invitational this weekend and I had one of those Ts.
Why didn't you come over and discuss this problem. I would have liked
to have heard your comments. I'm always open for suggestions.
Gary

 

[leg show T]

If it's okay, I'd like to come in on this. Very close to the same subject. In the '60's, some of the guys were turning their spindles around

putting the steering link in front of the axle. Finally, in the '60's, when pro builders came on the scene, they put things back on track!!

A lot of these guys were ARTISTS-- in their own right,-- placing the steering link as to almost looking like some kind of headlight bar.

On my car, with a little ingenuity, it runs through the frame. A manufacturer selling parts, frames -- and -- front-ends in the

'80's all the way until 2008, things went back to the same old thing for almost 3 decades again, placing the steering link in front of the axle.

The first thing you should see is the front axle. As an ARTIST, I SEE IT AS AN ART PIECE. Pleasing to the eye.

And yes, a preference!? --- But, why!? --- Can you name one good reason?


I am also for Arizona's nude immigration law! ----- ORRR, is it new?! Bob Nunes

 

[Corley]

And yes, a preference!? --- But, why!? --- Can you name one good reason?


I am also for Arizona's nude immigration law! ----- ORRR, is it new?! Bob Nunes

Bob,

Actually, there are two good reason to place the tie rod behind the axle that I can think of. First, it's by far easier to do the correct Ackerman that way. In SOME cases, it's even impossible to get the Ackerman correct with the tie rod in front of the axle, on such a short wheel base vehicle that's running front brakes. Second, if you hit an obsticle on the road, a curb post, or ???, it's much more likely to bend the tie rod or pop a tie rod end if it's sticking out there in the front.

Neither reason is enough to prevent you from doing it, and yes there is a lot of preferance involved.

I totally agree with you on the nude immigration law though! HA!
Corley

Putz,
I did speak to one of the 'T' owners in Florence, guess it was not you, but I don't think it is appropriate to step up at a show and say something like "you are about to kill yourself with that type of suspension", and did not speak to him about that. All three 'T's that were there were nice rigs and interesting. Which was yours? I just didn't run into you or the other owner... There were lot's of really nice cars though, I think we can agree on that!
Corley

PS My neighbor's '24 Packard boat tail roaster did not win best of show, but did get Tim's pick (show organizer)...

 

[leg show T]

Corley -- yes behind the ---- AXLE!! --------- Bob Nunes--- nunesfireandice.com

 

[fordsbyjay]

So I have one of these "death machines" originally made by Total Performance. I looked at it the other day when this post started and there is no room in the back for a drag link between the two wheels. Where is it placed when it is behind the axle because mine would run straight into the frame? Does it go above the frame? Some pics would help. I will consider anything to make the car more drivable and I have considered a 4 bar setup.

 

[PzT]

Corley

Mine was the Tangerine T with the White Top up by were you came in at, just by the bridge.
Not hte best place to be. Hardly had any judges come by and when they did went as fast as
they could to get by. Not as many people came up that way as did down on the other end.
Did see alot of nice cars.

Gary

 

[blownt]

Just how fast do you drive into your driveway? I drive into mine at about 2mph. Same for going over speed bumps/humps. I cannot think of very many times where I have be going faster than 5mpg and get one wheel up higher than the other side. I slow down for bumps or cracks in the roads and I like to miss potholes if I can. I see NUTTIN at all wrong with hairpins/radius rods. Especially the longer CCR type bars like mine.

 

[GAB]

I'll have to join the 4 bar advocacy group. I doubt that there are too many hairpin configurations that will do this.

 

[Northstar T]

I'll have to join the 4 bar advocacy group. I doubt that there are too many hairpin configurations that will do this.

why not? did I miss a memo somewhere? I have hairpins and can lift one wheel that far without a problem. perhaps the "no hairpin" contingent could explain where they feel the stress is in that type of design. I'm always willing to learn.

Russ

 

[Gerry]

I'll have to join the 4 bar advocacy group. I doubt that there are too many hairpin configurations that will do this.

When did you ever get that kind of displacement on a highway? I have an inclined drive but it would never put that kind of difference in the suspension. I bet if you videoed your day to day car for a week you would never see that kind o movement. We need to build to suit. I personally look at the road and the hazards and avoid them if its going to put the T in a compromising position. Try doing that ( as in your picture) with a ferrari or Lambo and see what happens Just MHO

Gerry

 

[RPM]

hthedrama:

 

[ruggs]

I'll have to join the 4 bar advocacy group. I doubt that there are too many hairpin configurations that will do this.

Could I see that photo with coilovers in place please...Ron (ruggs)

 

[Keeper]

So I have one of these "death machines" originally made by Total Performance. I looked at it the other day when this post started and there is no room in the back for a drag link between the two wheels. Where is it placed when it is behind the axle because mine would run straight into the frame? Does it go above the frame? Some pics would help. I will consider anything to make the car more drivable and I have considered a 4 bar setup.

It will look like this when you put the drag link behind.

Of course I made my own steering arms to make it work, but it can be done.

 

[one finger john]

And it will clear after approx. 750 additional lbs. of engine, radiator, ... etc. ? Not being nasty, just askin'.

John

 

[Keeper]

And it will clear after approx. 750 additional lbs. of engine, radiator, ... etc. ? Not being nasty, just askin'.

John

Yes I set it up with the engine/trans installed. I can also gain more clearance if I move the draglink to the bottom of the arms.

 

[ellis8500]

The never ending argument of 4-bar vs. hairpin. The hairpin design is tried and true. The 4-bar design is good too. It all depends on the style of ride you want. Hairpin radius rods add some effective spring rate due to the fact the the axle wants to twist when it raises or lowers. It's a very stiff spring. The 4-bar doesn't cause any axle twist so, in theory, the ride might be a bit softer. There is really no inherent danger in either if one uses the proper components, fasteners and design criteria; i.e., material strength and edge distance for holes.