Some days you get the Bear.......
- Thread starter donsrods
- Start date
donsrods
Member
Well, tonight Don and I got together to tear into his T and find out what is going on with the handling issues. It is nice to not have to rush like we were doing, so now we have all the time in the world to figure out whats up.
We started by squaring the frame to some marks we drew on the floor, and off of those we first tackled the front end. I knew we had too much caster dialed in, so the first thing we did was remove the front radius rods and moved the axle around until we had 6 degrees of caster. (he's running a Chevy spindle front axle) We also found out the front axle was adjusted 1/8 of an inch further back on one side, so we readjusted the radius rods to correct both problems and reinstalled them.
He also bought a new set of spindles from Speedway that have been redesigned to add a little more camber to the front end over stock ones. They look a lot better than the modified '54 Chevy spindles we had been using.
After we got the front squared away we measured the wheelbase on both sides and found the drivers side WB was 99 inches and the passenger side is 99 1/2 !
I have no idea how we got that far off when we did it originally, but the tape measure doesn't lie. I guess in our rush and us being so tired every night we just messed up.
So we quit for the night and after I paint his new spindles and new stock Corvair steering arm that he also bought, we are going to install them and wrap up the front end. Then we can start realigning the back end. I feel pretty good and confident that these changes are going to make it a totally different handling car.
Oh, we installed both rear tires and fired it up on jackstands to watch the wheels turn, and the tire shop is right, the one wheel is really bent. It was evidently that way out of the box because he has never curbed the car or anything to damage it. Hope the new one Coker sends is not the same.
Don
We started by squaring the frame to some marks we drew on the floor, and off of those we first tackled the front end. I knew we had too much caster dialed in, so the first thing we did was remove the front radius rods and moved the axle around until we had 6 degrees of caster. (he's running a Chevy spindle front axle) We also found out the front axle was adjusted 1/8 of an inch further back on one side, so we readjusted the radius rods to correct both problems and reinstalled them.
He also bought a new set of spindles from Speedway that have been redesigned to add a little more camber to the front end over stock ones. They look a lot better than the modified '54 Chevy spindles we had been using.
After we got the front squared away we measured the wheelbase on both sides and found the drivers side WB was 99 inches and the passenger side is 99 1/2 !
I have no idea how we got that far off when we did it originally, but the tape measure doesn't lie. I guess in our rush and us being so tired every night we just messed up.So we quit for the night and after I paint his new spindles and new stock Corvair steering arm that he also bought, we are going to install them and wrap up the front end. Then we can start realigning the back end. I feel pretty good and confident that these changes are going to make it a totally different handling car.
Oh, we installed both rear tires and fired it up on jackstands to watch the wheels turn, and the tire shop is right, the one wheel is really bent. It was evidently that way out of the box because he has never curbed the car or anything to damage it. Hope the new one Coker sends is not the same.
Don
Sounds like Don will be back on the road soon. :food:
Glad to hear you two are gettin' the bugs worked out. One good thing that will come out of this is some one else down the road will benefit from what you're doing to correct the problem areas. I know we can count on you to keep us posted.
Don, I want to be sure to thank you for joining this site. Not everyone would open them selves up the way you have. Your insight and honesty is refreshing.
Ron
Don, I want to be sure to thank you for joining this site. Not everyone would open them selves up the way you have. Your insight and honesty is refreshing.
Ron
donsrods
Member
Well, thanks Ron. I guess if I were smart I would keep quiet and pretend everything we do turns out perfect, but we all know that isn't the case. Any time we build these things in our garages with parts from 50 different sources, there are bound to be little glitches that cause problems or bug us to the point where we have to redo them.
One thing on my own T that is bothering me is that my steering column binds and causes a little harder steering than I would like. I used a steel shaft with a steel flange bearing at the bottom and a bronze bushing up top. I am going to redo the thing to use Total Performance nylon bushings top and bottom sometime down the road.
Let's face it, most of us don't have engineering degrees, so we do the best we can with knowledge we gather from forums, magazines, and other cars we see. If you think about it, it is surprising most of these cars work at all.
Don
One thing on my own T that is bothering me is that my steering column binds and causes a little harder steering than I would like. I used a steel shaft with a steel flange bearing at the bottom and a bronze bushing up top. I am going to redo the thing to use Total Performance nylon bushings top and bottom sometime down the road.
Let's face it, most of us don't have engineering degrees, so we do the best we can with knowledge we gather from forums, magazines, and other cars we see. If you think about it, it is surprising most of these cars work at all.
Don
tfeverfred
Well-Known Member
"Let's face it, most of us don't have engineering degrees, so we do the best we can with knowledge we gather from forums, magazines, and other cars we see. If you think about it, it is surprising most of these cars work at all. " Donsrod
Man, you said a mouth full! I get to work a little before we open and sometimes, I just sit and look at my car while I drink my morning coffee. I think how really wild it is that this thing is a car I built and plan on driving around town. Then, I remember something I read somewhere. "These things were being built by kids in the forties and fifties. It ain't rocket science." That may be true, but it still amazes me.
" DonsrodMan, you said a mouth full! I get to work a little before we open and sometimes, I just sit and look at my car while I drink my morning coffee. I think how really wild it is that this thing is a car I built and plan on driving around town.
Then, I remember something I read somewhere. "These things were being built by kids in the forties and fifties. It ain't rocket science." That may be true, but it still amazes me.
donsrods
Member
You're right Fred, but I saw some of the cars those kids built back in the '50's (I was born in '45 so I don't remember the earlier ones) and there was some real shade tree engineering back then. I saw cars that had stuff done to them that nobody would believe today.
A friend of mine had a '53 Ford that he swapped about a '53 Hemi into. They couldn't find rubber spacers to shim the distance between the frame and motor mount, so they drilled a hole through a small piece of 2 x 4 lumber and bolted it down. Everytime he would get on it a piece of the 2 x 4 would crack and fall out.
I bought a '33 Ford coupe turned roadster one time and the previous builder had used water pipe for the rear radius rods. That wasn't the worst part, he didn't use any bushed end where it mounted to the frame, he just heated and hammered the ends of the pipe flat and drilled a hole for a bolt to go through. It was steel on steel.
But the other side of that coin is that people from those days had this way of solving problems and coming up with solutions to things that had sort of been lost in later years. They could figure a way to move a building if they had to, using very limited resources. My own Dad and Grandpap built our two story house BEFORE ELECTRIC SAWS WERE INVENTED! How much work would it be to use a handsaw to build an entire house??
I guess some things are better today than "the good old days."
Don
A friend of mine had a '53 Ford that he swapped about a '53 Hemi into. They couldn't find rubber spacers to shim the distance between the frame and motor mount, so they drilled a hole through a small piece of 2 x 4 lumber and bolted it down.
Everytime he would get on it a piece of the 2 x 4 would crack and fall out.I bought a '33 Ford coupe turned roadster one time and the previous builder had used water pipe for the rear radius rods. That wasn't the worst part, he didn't use any bushed end where it mounted to the frame, he just heated and hammered the ends of the pipe flat and drilled a hole for a bolt to go through. It was steel on steel.
But the other side of that coin is that people from those days had this way of solving problems and coming up with solutions to things that had sort of been lost in later years. They could figure a way to move a building if they had to, using very limited resources. My own Dad and Grandpap built our two story house BEFORE ELECTRIC SAWS WERE INVENTED!
How much work would it be to use a handsaw to build an entire house?? I guess some things are better today than "the good old days."
Don
tfeverfred
Well-Known Member
So, they were MAD scientist. For some reason, it kinda makes me feel good knowing how reckless or ambitious some of the early guys were. Kinda puts a whole new spin on doing a hot rod "traditional" style.
It took a lot of guts to do what they did back then. There's no denying it.
For some reason, it kinda makes me feel good knowing how reckless or ambitious some of the early guys were. Kinda puts a whole new spin on doing a hot rod "traditional" style.It took a lot of guts to do what they did back then. There's no denying it.
donsrods
Member
Yeah Fred, we were, for the most part, pretty crude in some of the stuff we did. We had very little money, only a few hand tools, and very little experience. I know some of the guys on other forums say their cars were all pretty and painted and all, but not where I lived. Probably in California you found nicely done cars, because Californians have always spent more money on their rides than most other places it seems.
No, we gas welded stuff using wire coat hangers for rods, painted cars with Sears vacuum cleaners (in those days vacuum cleaners came with lots of attachments like a spray gun) and we borrowed and traded lots of stuff to get our cars going. Didn't have the parts sources like now, we had to build most of it, and there was a lot of experimentation.........trial and error.......mostly error.
The older guys didn't want to give us the time of day for the most part, unlike today where we are happy to see the torch being passed to the next generation. That is why so many older guys like me don't mind seeing rat rods. They do remind some of us of our roots. The hardcore traditionalists won't admit that, but they sure are like the cars I remember.
Don
No, we gas welded stuff using wire coat hangers for rods, painted cars with Sears vacuum cleaners (in those days vacuum cleaners came with lots of attachments like a spray gun
) and we borrowed and traded lots of stuff to get our cars going. Didn't have the parts sources like now, we had to build most of it, and there was a lot of experimentation.........trial and error.......mostly error. The older guys didn't want to give us the time of day for the most part, unlike today where we are happy to see the torch being passed to the next generation. That is why so many older guys like me don't mind seeing rat rods. They do remind some of us of our roots. The hardcore traditionalists won't admit that, but they sure are like the cars I remember.
Don
tfeverfred
Well-Known Member
Don, what you said about rat rods is interesting. It's interesting because like all things today, the first run was usually crude at best. I never could figure out the rat rod mentality, but then I spent all my life looking at the cars in magazines or shows. It just never dawned on me that not all hot rods were "pretty". While I can't see myself building one today, because still have the "pretty" image in me, it's cool to know that not every car in the "good old days" was a show car.
When I was younger, my thinking that a hot rod had to be chromed out and covered in candy paint kept me from even trying. As soon as me and my brother added up the prices on what we THOUGHT we needed, we were priced out of reality. It took over 30 years for me to wake up and part of that is from the philosophy of the rat rodders. Just build it the best you can. Of course, I try and add safe to the equation as much as possible. In fact, some of the things I thought would work, were actually not good at all. You guys who have builds under your belt are a God send.
When I was younger, my thinking that a hot rod had to be chromed out and covered in candy paint kept me from even trying. As soon as me and my brother added up the prices on what we THOUGHT we needed, we were priced out of reality. It took over 30 years for me to wake up and part of that is from the philosophy of the rat rodders. Just build it the best you can. Of course, I try and add safe to the equation as much as possible. In fact, some of the things I thought would work, were actually not good at all. You guys who have builds under your belt are a God send.
donsrods
Member
Hehe, I've told this story before, but it sort of fits in with this discussion.
When we were about 16 a guy we knew had a '50 Ford and he wanted to give it a rake. On a stock Ford the springs on the rear go under the axle and mount to flat perches. He had the bright idea to flip the rear end over 180 degrees so that the perches were now on top of the axle and he could put the springs up on top.
So he got it all torn down and put back together and man, it had a bitchin' rake. A bunch of us stood around as he lowered it off the jack stands and got ready to test drive his new creation. He put the car in reverse to back out of the driveway and the car moved forward. When he put it in low it went backwards. Ends up that when you flip the whole rear axle over, it reverses the direction of the tires. He had 3 speeds in reverse and one in forward.
You had to be there, but all of us fell on the ground laughing our butts off.:lol:
Don
When we were about 16 a guy we knew had a '50 Ford and he wanted to give it a rake. On a stock Ford the springs on the rear go under the axle and mount to flat perches. He had the bright idea to flip the rear end over 180 degrees so that the perches were now on top of the axle and he could put the springs up on top.
So he got it all torn down and put back together and man, it had a bitchin' rake. A bunch of us stood around as he lowered it off the jack stands and got ready to test drive his new creation. He put the car in reverse to back out of the driveway and the car moved forward. When he put it in low it went backwards. Ends up that when you flip the whole rear axle over, it reverses the direction of the tires. He had 3 speeds in reverse and one in forward.
You had to be there, but all of us fell on the ground laughing our butts off.
:lol:Don
Coupefreak
New Member
I finally got a chance to read this post, got a big chuckle:lol:
I'm suprised most of us survived our earlier years
The Mrs. and I take the '34 to the local What-A-Burger every Sunday for breakfast, weather permitting, of course. I like it 'cuz I can get me a regular with cheese, add jalapenos for breakfast. I'm not much of a bacon 'n eggs kinda guy:neutral: plus, its just good eatin'
Vance
I'm suprised most of us survived our earlier years
The Mrs. and I take the '34 to the local What-A-Burger every Sunday for breakfast, weather permitting, of course. I like it 'cuz I can get me a regular with cheese, add jalapenos for breakfast. I'm not much of a bacon 'n eggs kinda guy:neutral: plus, its just good eatin'
Vance
donsrods
Member
I've got to find me one of those What-a-burger places. :lol:
BTW, I did some work on Don's T today. He is working so I just decided to do a few things on it. Got his new Speedway spindles and Corvair steering arm painted, but first I had to cut those four flat spots out of the splined part of the arm and turn them into teeth so I could reposition the arm at the right angle. Used a hacksaw to start shaping the teeth and then switched to a three cornered file until I got the shape I wanted.
These Corvair forged arms are a whole lot tougher than the Speedway cast arm that we had bad luck with. When I drilled out the bottom hole to 5/8 to take a rod end bolt, the Speedway arm drilled like butter, and black powder came off the drill bit. This forged arm was a son of a gun to drill through, and I got real steel shavings off of the drilling process.
I also adjusted his Flaming River steering box a little to take some of the play out of it. You could physically move the arm about an 1/8th inch fore and aft before I adjusted it, and that may have been enough slop to keep the steering box from controling the front end as well as it should. Now it is nice and tight with no slop.
Finally, I decided to align the rear axle to the front one, which is now square to the frame. I was surprised to find the wheelbase on the drivers side was 9/16 inch shorter than the passenger side. I knew it was a little off, but that amount shocked me. No wonder the car handled so bad. I got it to exactly 99 and 5/8 on both sides now.
Monday night he and I are going to wrap up the front end, The paint will be dry on the spindles and steering arm by then so we can put it back together and set the toe in, then set it back on all fours. I still have to get that new rim from Coker to replace the bent one, paint it and put it back on. Hopefully that will take care of all the little glitches and he can start driving the car and feeling safe in it.
Don
BTW, I did some work on Don's T today. He is working so I just decided to do a few things on it. Got his new Speedway spindles and Corvair steering arm painted, but first I had to cut those four flat spots out of the splined part of the arm and turn them into teeth so I could reposition the arm at the right angle. Used a hacksaw to start shaping the teeth and then switched to a three cornered file until I got the shape I wanted.
These Corvair forged arms are a whole lot tougher than the Speedway cast arm that we had bad luck with. When I drilled out the bottom hole to 5/8 to take a rod end bolt, the Speedway arm drilled like butter, and black powder came off the drill bit. This forged arm was a son of a gun to drill through, and I got real steel shavings off of the drilling process.
I also adjusted his Flaming River steering box a little to take some of the play out of it. You could physically move the arm about an 1/8th inch fore and aft before I adjusted it, and that may have been enough slop to keep the steering box from controling the front end as well as it should. Now it is nice and tight with no slop.
Finally, I decided to align the rear axle to the front one, which is now square to the frame. I was surprised to find the wheelbase on the drivers side was 9/16 inch shorter than the passenger side. I knew it was a little off, but that amount shocked me. No wonder the car handled so bad. I got it to exactly 99 and 5/8 on both sides now.
Monday night he and I are going to wrap up the front end, The paint will be dry on the spindles and steering arm by then so we can put it back together and set the toe in, then set it back on all fours. I still have to get that new rim from Coker to replace the bent one, paint it and put it back on. Hopefully that will take care of all the little glitches and he can start driving the car and feeling safe in it.
Don
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