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200-4R Trans Governor Shift Timing

Discussion in 'Engines and Drivelines' started by Indycars, Mar 21, 2021.

  1. Indycars

    Indycars
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    Looks like I don't have a choice but return to TRANS Mode. I've emailed once and called CK
    Performance 4-5 times. Was even on a phone call when it dropped while Chris was looking for
    my email with all the details, including pics. I wanted his opinion for calibrating the shift timing.
    I have bought over $1000 in parts from him, including the governor.

    - During WOT it shifts too high, although I don't know how high since I have to get out of the
    throttle before it shifts.
    - When driving at part throttle it shifts too late, tends to linger in a gear until I lift off the throttle
    alittle sometimes.
    - And when slowing down it down shift too early, I can hear the rpm increase slightly.
    - Only the WOT shifts are a real problem, the others are very easy to live with.

    So what started all this was the trans keep blowing fuses for the lock-up solenoid. So I pulled the
    pan and the solenoid is shorting out and blowing the fuse. The problem wire is just before it goes
    into the coil. For a test I bypassed all the wiring to apply 12v to the solenoid with the pan off. I
    could see it pull when energized, but when I wiggled the wires close to the coil it would drop out
    and then it blew the fuse again that I had wires into the test setup.

    First thing was to document the Governor specs. I shot the springs with some paint to help keep
    track of them, hence the different colors in the table below.

    FP01_SpringSpecTable.jpg
    FP01_GovernorSpringCompare_02639.jpg
    FP01_GovernorWeightCompare_02647.jpg

    BTW, some governors do Not have a primary spring from the factory.

    So lets start with some of background info from CKP about the governor and shift timing.

    FP01_CKP_GovernorDetails01.jpg
    FP01_CKP_GovernorDetails02.jpg

    I'm going to start with the springs for adjusting the shift timing.

    - I will add the stock Primary spring to CKP's governor where he had nothing. This should lower the partial throttle up-shifts.
    - I'm also going to add a spring from my inventory to Secondary weight. The wire diameter of my new spring in.0045" bigger.
    - The spring force @ 1/2 inch is about twice that of the stock spring:

    ....... Stock Spring @ 1/2 inch = 25 grams
    ....... Inv Spring @ 1/2 inch = 55 grams

    FP01_MeasuringSpringForce_2650.jpg
    FP01_MeasuringSpringForce_2652.jpg
    .
     
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  2. fletcherson

    fletcherson
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    What effect does the tv have on shift points at wot? Is it negating the governor? Been a while since I fooled with transmissions.
     
  3. Indycars

    Indycars
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    Anyone selling a trans with a TV valve will tell you that there is only one correct adjustment
    and it's not for controlling shift timing or shift feel. Now you might get away with some very
    minor tweaks, but it's not the way to really go about it. If it's not adjusted properly you can
    burn up the trans is a few hundred miles.

    Per CK Performance:

    THROTTLE VALVE- The movement of the throttle valve plunger and spring controls the
    position of the throttle valve. The throttle valve converts throttle angle into a hydraulic
    signal which signifies engine load. This hydraulic signal is then sent elsewhere to control
    line pressure and shift scheduling. The throttle valve is fed 90 psl from the tv limit valve.
    It regulates this pressure between zero psl (closed throttle) and 90 psl (wide open throttle).
     
  4. Indycars

    Indycars
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    Got the trans back together and went for a test drive this afternoon. I fixed my problem with
    the lockup TC solenoid that was blowing fuses ....yeah !!! But the harder problem to solve was
    the the shift timing controlled by the governor. There did seem to be much of a change at part
    throttle or WOT. Wow that was scary, hard to test shift points at WOT when the car wants to
    go sideways when it shifts into 2nd and 3rd.

    I added a spring to the secondary side and increase the spring force on the primary side. All colors
    are my chosing, they are not factory. Just in case someone is reading this and has a 200-4R.

    Looks like I am going to have to take a heavy weight and do some grinding so that it is lighter
    than stock, but heavier than the original CKP governor. I was hoping that I could do this with
    just a spring change.

    FP02_1stTestGov_02653.jpg


    My short that was blowing fuses was caused by the heat shrink that I used was NOT compatible with high temps and ATF. It swelled up and exposed my solder connections causing the short to ground.

    I ordered some shrink tubing from Wire Care that is supposed to be up to the task.
    RAYCHEMDRS - DR25 Diesel Resistant Heat Shrink - WireCare.com

    FP02_NewPanWiring_02665.jpg

    If you are trouble shooting a lockup solenoid problem, then the resistance should be about
    20 to 24 ohms of resistance.

    If one of the connectors on the 4th gear pressure switch is not protected, they can touch each
    other. Therefore I bought the white connector you see on the pressure switch below instead
    of using shrink tubing this time.

    FP02_NewPanWiring_02667.jpg
    Just in a few thousand miles you can see the metal slurry that the magnets will attract. I bought
    the round disk Neodymium Magnets from KJ Magnetics. They are high temp, since temps can
    exceed the effective range of some magnets reducing or eliminating their attractive force. I've
    used these magnets in the engine valley and oil pan. The horseshoe magnets are from some old
    computer hard disk drives and were free, so I had nothing to loose.

    K&J Magnetics: DC4SH

    upload_2021-3-26_18-12-26.png

    FP02_MagentsInPan_02663.jpg

    Below the transmission pan is all cleaned up from all the metal slurry. If you have ever tried to
    wipe metal off a magnet it is nearly impossible to get everything off. So I used some Modeling Clay
    and push it into all the crevices, pulled it off and folded it over and cleaned the magnets over and
    over with this process. The clay will hold the metal better than the magnet.

    FP02_CleanedTransPan_02669.jpg
    .
     
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  5. choppedtop

    choppedtop
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    I've had pretty good luck cleaning magnets with a small wire brush (looks like teeth are maybe brass or copper) and high air pressure. I now know who to call with trans problems.;)
     
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  6. Indycars

    Indycars
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    This should read .....
    There did NOT seem to be much of a change at part throttle or WOT.
     
  7. Indycars

    Indycars
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    I ordered some springs from McMaster-Carr that were considerably stronger than the previous
    ones used above. The springs had a free length were 0.75"(stock was 0.8"), but the wire diameter
    was .022" and .026". The stock spring wire diameter was .012" and the one from my inventory
    was .017". They new springs had a rate of 5.6 and 10.0 lbs/in.

    The only springs I could find that had the dimensions that might work were Mil-Spec, so I had
    to pay $45 for ten springs. Five each of the two different dimensions, shown below.

    McMaster-Carr

    upload_2021-5-19_16-20-20.png

    I've have not found anyone that has calibrated their 200-4R governor using springs only, but
    going outside the box is one way of learning something new.

    Before I installed the heavier of the two springs (10.0 lbs/in), I painted both for identification
    purposes. Just trying to pull away from the house it felt like I didn't have enough fluid in the
    trans and was slipping alot, but it was because it was taking off in 4th gear. When I pulled it
    down into manual 1st gear it was alot better. Obviously these springs (10.0 lbs/in) were much
    too heavy for what I wanted. Next I will try the the 5.6 lbs/in springs, but I'm doubtful that they
    will be what I need either.

    I only have two complete governors, one stock and one from CK Performance and the NTBA Nationals
    are coming up in a couple of weeks. I was hoping that I could do the governor calibration by only
    changing springs. But its starting to look like I will need to do some grinding on the weights. I hate to
    do that right now since the stock governor works just fine for cruising. It's only lacking when I want to
    go fast and trying to shift manually while keeping the car going straight is very difficult. Best done
    with two hands on the steering wheel!!!

    OK it looks like it's time to drain the fluid and pull the pan again, later !
     
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  8. old round fart

    old round fart
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    Your luck is like mine! You had a 50-50 chance of the right spring and you picked the wrong one! Lol
     
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  9. Indycars

    Indycars
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    You like me picking the right friend, I had a 50-50 chance ??? LOL !!! :D
     
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  10. fletcherson

    fletcherson
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    I envy you... sure miss the sensation of warm transmission fluid running down the back of my arms, into the arm pits... not really, enjoy your experiment! Are you using a lift or crawling under?
     
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  11. Indycars

    Indycars
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    Yes warm trans fluid is always fun !

    It's fairly easy for me to get the car a couple of feet off the ground on all four corners. I have
    carpet on the floor, so it's pretty comfortable down there !
     
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  12. Neshkoro

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    Seems to me that making some of the automatic transmissions work correctly in a t bucket is a pain in the neck! shift linkage, downshift cables and torque converters. I’ll stick to a manual trans and a clutch pedal. Has always been my preference,anyway! Just sayin’!
     
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  13. Indycars

    Indycars
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    I can't argue with that statement and I do enjoy driving a standard. But then the only time it
    really makes a difference is when you have a need to shift at the optimum RPM and you
    want it to be completely automatic, otherwise it's fine for cruising. When I was looking I
    couldn't find a ratchet shifter with rear exiting cable, this would have been a improvement.

    Now the torque converter is another story and can be a problem for some people, so once
    again the standard trans wins this one.
     
  14. Indycars

    Indycars
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    I removed the two MMC springs (10.0 lbs/in) and replaced them with .....

    Setup #3
    Primary Spring: Stock OEM Spring
    Secondary Spring: McMaster-Carr 5.6 lbs/in, PN: MS24585-1086

    Still no joy, it shifted very similar to setup #2 with the two MMC 10 lbs/in springs shown
    above and below. The two springs outside the governor in the pic below.

    FP03_GovSetup_#2_#3_02774.jpg

    I am in the process of installing the stock original governor now that's been in the car for
    several years now. I need to prepare for the NTBA Nationals in Tennessee.

    Since I'm pulling the transmission pan so many times, I went ahead and bought a gasket
    from Lube Locker. I've used this type of gasket on my Navigator and tightening the pan
    against this gasket is easy and not critical about how tight you make it. When the pan
    compresses the rubber until it meets the steel, then you can't really compress the gasket
    any further. So it keeps you from over tightening the gasket.

    They make gaskets for many of the popular differentials and transmissions pans.

    LubeLocker, LLC

    upload_2021-5-22_17-14-46.png
     
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  15. PotvinGuy

    PotvinGuy
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    I've tried many gaskets and Lube Locker is the best. No leaks at all.
     
  16. Indycars

    Indycars
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    That's good to know, thanks for the feedback !

    I used this style of gasket on the Navigator, but it was not made by Lube Locker and I've
    had no leaks there either.
     






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