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Help with cam

akitagandy

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SBC Hyd. cam (specs) .480 Lift Intake,.480 Lift Exhaust,288 Duration IN. & EX,Lobe center 108 Intake C/L 106, This is with 1.5 rocker arms. Now what I need to know is I have a brand new set of roller rockers but they are 1.6 , How much will this change the lift and do you think it will be OK in a 350 .040 over ,Forged Flat top pistons,76cc heads 194/160 This is going in my 1965 Chevy to pull the T bucket
 

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SBC Hyd. cam (specs) .480 Lift Intake,.480 Lift Exhaust,288 Duration IN. & EX,Lobe center 108 Intake C/L 106, This is with 1.5 rocker arms. Now what I need to know is I have a brand new set of roller rockers but they are 1.6 , How much will this change the lift and do you think it will be OK in a 350 .040 over ,Forged Flat top pistons,76cc heads 194/160 This is going in my 1965 Chevy to pull the T bucket
Thats a good cobination even tough you really don't need the 1.6 rockers but it will work if your pistons have eyebrows .
 
That will make the valve lift .512" Took the valve lift of .480 divided by 1.5 for the stock rocker and got .320 which is the cam lift them multiply by 1.6 the new rocker and got .512" You "should" be OK with that. When I worked in a speed shop .540 was the number to get real worried about if nothing has been milled. That was in a stock engine. It never hurts to check valve to piston clearance to be safe.
 
I will go so far as to say you must check piston/valve clearance. Without knowing anything about the machine work done to the block and heads, you could run into issues.

I think I've gone off on this rant before, but using a roller-tip rocker on a hydraulic tappet is an absolute, utter waste of time and money. On a solid flat tappet or solid roller combination, you have valve lash (clearance between the roller and the tip of the valve), when the valve is closed. As the rocker kicks off the tip of the valve, the roller has the ability to move. With the hydraulic tappet, there is preload, instead of clearance. The roller never leaves the tip of the valve, it just scrubs back and forth in the same manner as a stock rocker. I can't imagine the actual number of roller rocker arm sets I sent back to have the roller tips replaced in, because they were used on a hydraulic tappet combination. The rollers would be flat on one side, because they never got the opportunity to actually roll. And where do you suppose that worn metal ends up?

Now this is where someone is going to step up to tell me they eliminate friction, which will free up horsepower. And my answer to that is horse exhaust. Look at the surface contact area between the rocker tip and the tip of the valve. Now look at the surface contact area between the rocker body and the rocker arm ball. Where is the greatest source of friction? If the rocker arm people wanted to decrease friction, why didn't they give you a roller trunnion? Because you wouldn't have spent the extra money to have the beefier trunnion, that's why.

Years ago, I had a factory rep who called on me from a very large speed manufacturer, who shall remain nameless. I had known this fellow for years, he drove a TA/FC and I would always see him at the track, as he lived in the same division. He came in the door one day and told me the company he worked for had come up with a new, hot lick, titanium valve spring retainer. When I asked what so great about it, he showed me a flier, introducing the company's new 7° retainers. When I pointed out there was nothing "new" about a 7° retainer and asked why in the world they were making the move to a weaker combination, he told me they hadn't sold any 7° stuff in years and they figured if they splashed it out in a huge advertising campaign, everyone would figure it was the latest and greatest trick of the week and would have to have them. He admitted they were weaker and were going to be less reliable than their 10° stuff, but they were looking to boost sales.

See what happens? You pick up your latest issue of Hot Cars Gone Wild and see an ad for a new, trick of the week part. You drop the magazine, rip the pocket off your pants to get at that credit card and you're dialing the phone. You are going to be the first one on the block to have the new, trick of the week. But you forgot Rule #1 - tricks are for kids.

If rollers are so necessary, why aren't you using roller cam bearings? Why aren't you using roller main and rod bearings? Why were racers using the old Schubeck composite lifter in place of a roller lifter? The roller-tipped rockers also have more mass, which puts more weight on the shoulder of your valve springs.

Go to the parts store, buy a new set of rocker arm balls, use them in your stock rockers and sell the roller-tipped rockers to someone that hasn't figured out they're a waste. Use the money you made on the sale of the rockers to buy parts you actually need, parts that will actually make horsepressure or take your significant other out to dinner. Bumping that valve lift up .032" isn't going to do spit in a street motor, you'll eliminate the need to check P/V and you'll eliminate 16 more moving parts inside your motor. Keep the valve covers on the motor whenever anyone is around and tell your buddies you're running roller-tipped rockers AND a roller cam. They'll think you're bad-ass cool and you'll know you are because you saved yourself money.
 
And where do you suppose that worn metal ends up?


It goes to those little magnets on top of the end head bolts. I put 4 little magnets on top of the head bolts on a SBC. Look at the spring shims and rockers the next time you have your heads apart. Oh yea the filter might catch it if you have the by pass plugged. With the magnets it keeps that trash from going thru the oil pump.
 
Can you tell us approx. how many miles were on the roller-tipped rockers when they were pulled for repair? Were the repairs covered under cam manufacturer warranty? Could it have been a problem with roller hardness?
 
I like what Mike wrote. A year ago, when I was building my engine, I was looking at all the whiz bang gizzmoes that could get me more HP and torque. I ran software simulations comparing cam shafts, intakes, exhaust, compression ratio, heads and ,.............my head was spinning. Then for some reason, common sense kicked in. I wasn't going to build a race car nor a show car. I'm building a car to drive on the street, take to some local car shows and be in a parade now and then. A stock engine will over-power the car so who needs more [HP costs many $$$$$]? Most people will find a nicely done 27T impressive no matter what engine sits between the radiator and firewall. I'll be happy just knowing that I built my own car that actually works. So, for you newbies and just-getting-starteds, heed Mike's advice. Think long and hard about spending you $$$$ on the lastest gizzmoe that will get you little or nothing in return. I agree with Mike on this too...Spending those $$$ on your Honey will probably result in a lot more fun than you will ever have knowing that some expensive piece of metal that is buried deep in you engine just might be doing something worthwhile.
 
I like what Mike wrote. A year ago, when I was building my engine, I was looking at all the whiz bang gizzmoes that could get me more HP and torque. I ran software simulations comparing cam shafts, intakes, exhaust, compression ratio, heads and ,.............my head was spinning. Then for some reason, common sense kicked in. I wasn't going to build a race car nor a show car. I'm building a car to drive on the street, take to some local car shows and be in a parade now and then. A stock engine will over-power the car so who needs more [HP costs many $$$]? Most people will find a nicely done 27T impressive no matter what engine sits between the radiator and firewall. I'll be happy just knowing that I built my own car that actually works. So, for you newbies and just-getting-starteds, heed Mike's advice. Think long and hard about spending you $$ on the lastest gizzmoe that will get you little or nothing in return. I agree with Mike on this too...Spending those $$ on your Honey will probably result in a lot more fun than you will ever have knowing that some expensive piece of metal that is buried deep in you engine just might be doing something worthwhile.

Have to agree. I bought a 350HO from GM. Came in a crate with oil in a dyno sheet for 357 BHP and a warranty.(built with all the bits GM have found that worked over the previous years in race and road applications.)
OK I did put a Kinsler EFI on it but that is just for looks you understand
Gerry
 
i have that same cam 280comp magnum it lops preety good and they you will need a 2500 stahl which i have thats going to be to racy for a pulling rig even is your car does only way 2200# my car hits pretty hard. I am no expert but that is just my two cents worth good luck
 
It goes to those little magnets on top of the end head bolts. I put 4 little magnets on top of the head bolts on a SBC. Look at the spring shims and rockers the next time you have your heads apart. Oh yea the filter might catch it if you have the by pass plugged. With the magnets it keeps that trash from going thru the oil pump.
Yeah, we always epoxied magnets and screens at all the returns in the heads and the block. We always used an Oberg on the race car and it was always pretty amazing at how much trash you could find in there, even with the screens and magnets in place. We ran an external oil pump and all the oil coming from the pan went through the Oberg before it went on to the pump.
 
Bill, there are a lot of really inexpensive ways to make some extra HP and to increase longevity at the same time. And I love doing that stuff. If I can make more power and also add life to a motor, that's as good as it gets for me. And I am telling you, a roller tip on a rocker arm is not one of those things. There's no power to be found there, no matter what you read in the latest issue of Fast Cars, Broken Dreams.

Here's one for you. One of the big magazines called the shop one day. They were interested in a set of valve springs. They were going to do one of their How To Build a Gazillion HP for Only $500 articles. They were going to do a series on building a motor and when complete, they were going to the dyno with it. And since everybody and their mother reads their rag, the whole world was going to see how we had the greatest valve springs on the market. Was I ready to take down the address for the shop where I needed to send the FREE set of springs? I explained we were already aware we had the best spring going and I would be willing to sell him a set of springs at a reduced price. He couldn't believe I was turning down the opportunity to give him something for nothing. About 6 months later, the series on the engine started and it turned out one of the cam companies had the "best valve springs on the market". Meaning that cam company had not only given them a cam/lifter set, they had also coughed up a free set of springs. They suck up to high performance manufacturers to get freebies for their articles, but did you ever wonder where all that stuff goes, when they've finished the article? Hmmmmmm??

I've been toying with motors since 1970-1971. Street motors, Modified Production/Gas class motors, IHRA Pro Stock motors and our own Competition Eliminator motors, which ran everyone else out of the class 23 years ago and have been resetting E.T and M.P.H records ever since. I've even played with some circle-track stuff, but don't ever repeat that to anyone. :winkn: We've dynoed stuff some people would be scared to try. How many of you have dyno-tested valve/seat angles and back-cuts? How many of you have dyno-tested oil? We've broken motors in ways that would leave most people awe-struck. You've not lived until you're finding pieces of cylinder wall jammed into the throttle bore of a carburetor. We broke an A/ED motor, coming out of the water box at Indy, so badly that we dug a hole and buried it. I started my first job in a speed shop back in 1976. I've seen entire manufacturers come and go in the last 34 years. I've got a pretty good handle on what works and what doesn't, because I've tried nearly all of it on the dyno and in the real world.

And a roller-tip rocker arm isn't going to make a bit of power. Moving the ratio to 1.6 on the exhaust side of a standard SBC head might have a tiny effect, but in a street car you would never feel it in the seat of your pants. Ask a guy like Ted how much power you can lose in a regular T-Bucket chassis, opposed to a state-of-the-art tube-framed race car. I was tickled when we could find 4-5 HP in the race motor, but I could give you some tips that would add 10 HP to the motor in your T-Bucket and you would never notice the additional power. When someone tells me they can feel a reduction of .005 in a 60-foot time, or can feel an additional 1/2 MPH in the quarter-mile, that's when I am on the floor laughing.

Build the thing to live, bolt it in your T-Bucket and drive the blinkin' wheels off the car. Enjoy driving the car, not trying to find 4 HP, because you're just wasting your time.
 
Hey Mike,

I like what you write and the way you write it. The search for more HP is often conducted by those who do not understand tha basic physics of torque and HP. So, here's a primer for those who might want to know. HP= torque x RPM / 5252. A dyno measures torque and calculates HP. So to increase HP, one has to increase torque at a given RPM. A typical truck camshaft is designed to produce lots of torque at a low RPM so when you plug the numbers into the equation, HP isn't all that great. But, that truck can pull a big load without running the engine near red line. For speed, everything has to run at high RPM. A camshaft designed for that doesn't produce a lot of torque at lower engine speeds. The torque band is in a higher RPM range. Camshafts are designed to produce torque in a given RPM range. However; everything alse has to match. A high lift, long duration cam doesn't do any good if the intake, heads and exhaust all limit flow. A high flow head isn't much good if the camshaft, exhaust and intake limit flow. And on it goes. That's why some companies sell sets of parts; i.e., intake, cam, and heads that are matched to one another. The important thing to remember about all this is that the system has to be designed to match flow rates through all components. You, as an engine builder know this. Many who start to dabble in this hobby do not. So it's good to hear from someone who knows because it can save some of us from spending too many dollars for little to no benefit.

Have a great weekend Mike and keep the good advice coming.
 
Hey Mike,

I like what you write and the way you write it. The search for more HP is often conducted by those who do not understand tha basic physics of torque and HP. So, here's a primer for those who might want to know. HP= torque x RPM / 5252. A dyno measures torque and calculates HP. So to increase HP, one has to increase torque at a given RPM. A typical truck camshaft is designed to produce lots of torque at a low RPM so when you plug the numbers into the equation, HP isn't all that great. But, that truck can pull a big load without running the engine near red line. For speed, everything has to run at high RPM. A camshaft designed for that doesn't produce a lot of torque at lower engine speeds. The torque band is in a higher RPM range. Camshafts are designed to produce torque in a given RPM range. However; everything alse has to match. A high lift, long duration cam doesn't do any good if the intake, heads and exhaust all limit flow. A high flow head isn't much good if the camshaft, exhaust and intake limit flow. And on it goes. That's why some companies sell sets of parts; i.e., intake, cam, and heads that are matched to one another. The important thing to remember about all this is that the system has to be designed to match flow rates through all components. You, as an engine builder know this. Many who start to dabble in this hobby do not. So it's good to hear from someone who knows because it can save some of us from spending too many dollars for little to no benefit.

Have a great weekend Mike and keep the good advice coming.
Now theres the voice of experience. Why would you want 1000BHP in a bucket when you can only use 25% of that 99% of the time. If you want loads a HP then get a race car and enjoy the experience.. I did.
 
Well, I know there are at least two people who understand. :winkn:

For the last 25-30 years, I've become a master at stretching dollars. It's always seemed like a race to see whether we got to the end of the month or the end of the money first. :shrug: My lot in life, it's nobody's fault but my own. But I would watch customers waste money on useless things or on parts that weren't designed to work well with the rest of their parts and it would really grate on me. As a salesman, I suppose I should have been happy to watch people waste money. But what I wanted to see were people that ended up with something that ran so much better, they were surprised by it. That's where I got my own satisfaction. I was always tempted to ask people if I could make them happy and save them money, would they be willing to share the unspent budget with me?

I was very lucky to race with Brian all the years I did. He could afford the buy the right stuff and as long as I could show him we had a real need for something, he never held back so much as a dime. It scared me to look at what he spent for us to race each year, but when I compared the number with other Comp racers, we were spending 1/4 to 1/3 of the money. And we always had one of the fastest cars in the country. We knew what we had and we knew how to make it work. Most guys would go spend $3K to $4K on a trick part and pull it back off the car before they ever had it sorted out.

Bottom line, you have to know what you currently have to work with. Next, you have to decide where you want to end up. Then you can decide what parts you can still use, what parts have to hit the bin and what parts you need to buy. If you've got a wee, short tire and a ultra-low gear, then buying parts that make power at 6500 RPM and up is a good plan. But if you're building something to cruise in, remember that small ports, small valves and short, dual-plane intakes really pick up air speed and give great throttle response. We always called HP torque until we got to 5500 RPM. When you're at a stoplight and the light turns green, who cares how much power your motor makes at 7,500 RPM? You need a pile of low RPM torque to get the car moving. How many of you can say your motors spend most of their time above 3,000 RPM? Seriously? Then assemble the parts it will take to make the motor happy in the off-idle to 4,500 RPM range. Sure, tunnel rams and Dominators have that look to them. But in a T-Bucket with street tires? I'll easily dance circles around you with a single 4 BBL. And we both know it.

You say you want a camshaft with 305° of duration. Step right up to the plate. But you better do something to increase static compression, because with that much duration, you're going to have enough overlap that cylinder pressure is going suck mud. Ahhh, so you're sharp enough to bump static CR up around 12:1. Now, here in Indiana, we've had 2-3 weeks of 90° temperatures, so you better make sure you're running race fuel or that motor will be detonating on the starter. And that big cam, well it's going to need big springs. So yank the heads off and cut the spring pockets. Now, with that big spring, a stock rocker arm pivot won't work, so shell out the cash for a set of rockers with roller trunnions. And that cam just moved your power band up about 2,000 RPM, so you're going to need a lower gear to keep the motor happy as you cruise around town. And then, just wait until it's time to drive 80-100 miles to a car show. That fuel mileage stinks, because you're zinging the motor so much higher at highway speeds.

Now, had you built a real torquey, low compression motor, pump gas would still work fine and the motor would be stuck in the middle of its power band as you cruise down the highway. The money you saved on the machine work and the roller rockers paid for the vacuum secondary carb and the intake manifold you're using. You're out enjoying life, instead of waiting for the machine shop to get your heads back to you. A couple blocks shy of Bob's Burgers, wheel to the curb and pull a vacuum cap of the carb. That way the motor will be running rough and then you can tell all your pals it's that new roller cam you just installed. And the funny part?

They'll believe you.
 
OK I took the roller rockers off and went back to stock rockers, I have learned alot with all of this reading I have never put rollers on a Hyd. cam before, I have always run Solid or a Roller cam :news: :tnku:
 
That's good reading from Mike. I'm building a Ford to go into my Ford even though I have a chevy sitting here more complete. I want to make around 300 ft. pounds of torque in the 4000 rpm range with a C4 tansmission. After driving 700 to 800 horsepower sprint cars for 14 years a 450 horse T bucket frying the tires on the dusty pavement won't give me much satisfaction anyway so a good driveable engine/driveline combo will be a better choice. I'm old too, so most of that heavy foot stuff is out of my system except for the occasional smash of the throttle.
 
Hey Ironhead,

I built my Ford 302 with an Edelbrock Performer intake, 600 CFM carb, stock E7T heads and a Summit 4400 cam. I used a very good PC Dyno program that is usually within a few percent of the real numbers to estimate torque and HP. Here's what it showed. Note that HP isn't all that high but good enough for about 140 MPH.

Engine RPM 1500 1750 2000 2250 2500 2750 3000 3250 3500 3750 4000 4250 4500 4750 5000 5250 5500
Brk Tq 275 282 287 298 313 323 330 334 335 332 325 313 300 287 272 254 236
Brake HP 78.5 94 109 128 149 169 188 207 223 237 248 253 257 259 258 254 247

Sorry about the table spacing so you'll have to line up the numbers.


This represents a balanced system. A bigger cam would require some head work to up the flow potential. Also different valve springs. I also used standard performace calculations and determined that a 27T at about 2200 lbs would need no more than 250 ft-lbs to spin the tires. My setup should give me 0-60 times of about 4 seconds and the engine will be well mannered for everyday street driving. If you like, I can send you spreadsheets showing all of this; send me a note on my e-mail. With just about any camshaft other than the truck cam, you can expect at least 300 ft-lbs from the 302. If you look at the Summit cams [and others], they give an RPM range where you'll get the performance you seek. Good luck on your build.
 
Thanks for the numbers Mr Bill. if I'm looking at the chart correctly you have peak torque @ 3500 rpm, not bad. I have a late model roller block and will be staying with a hyd. roller. My cylinder heads are stock GT40's, came with the craigs list engine a few days ago. May consider an AOD if I find one otherwise it will be a C4.
 
Hey Ironhead,

While I was doing my Ford engine research, I studied the effects of several roller cams for an upgrade of the truck engine I bought. As for head flow rates, in order lower to higher they are: E7T, GT40 and GT40P. All of these heads could use the Melling SYB51, Ford E303 and Trickflow Stage 1 cams to get you in the range you want. Depending on your engine, the SYB51 would probably not require new valve springs. The E303 and TFS1 would since the stock springs in your GT40 would probably not handle the lift of those two cams. Send me a message and I'll send you the data. Others should chime in on this in case I'm wrong here. Don't want to give any bad advice. Mike, are ya out there.
 
Mike and Ron are right....Magnets are good, screens are good.... Roller Rockers are good for keeping friction down, keeping the side loads off your valvestems. They keep the heat off the tips, wear is pratically nonexistant.

Stock rockers will work and have worked for a 100 years. Straight ahead, no frills. IF, IF you got rollers and you have some 1.6's, and want a little more pep....stick those on your exhaust...you'll feel a little difference on a mild or healthy cam.

Mike and Ron are right...on a almost stock motor, stock arms are the ticket. But, for a motor your gonna dedicate to alot of cruising and driving, the roller tips will let your valvestems and valveguides last longer....
just my 2 Pecos....
 

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