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Pleass critique my planned fuel sysytem

2old2fast & Indycars – I thought that you only needed a return line with fuel injection???

In your drawing you state a Holley Blue pump which puts out 14 psi, therefore you will need a pressure regulator. This type of pressure regulator uses a return line that go back to the tank.

The Holley Red pump is internally regulated and puts out 7 psi at the pump, so hopefully you get 4-5 psi at the carburetor. I used the red previously and had no problems with it when the engine put out 300 HP. Since I have now built an engine that should put out about 500 HP, I wanted a better more stable fuel pressure that the external regulator will give me. Also you are setting the pressure at the carburetor where it's important, not guessing at what pressure is needed at the pump which is located at the back by the tank.

Indycars – Thanks for the spreadsheet // What is the restriction on the Mallory 4307M? // The Fuel gage that you spec'ed does not appear to be liquid filled //Where does the Vent Filter attach?

You are welcome, glad it could help more than just myself!

I will have to measure if I can without taking it apart. I ordered the Mallory because it came with AN fittings which are not cheap, so the price of the regulator was actually less for me since I didn't have to buy the fittings separately.

Right, hard to remember exactly, but I think temperature effects a liquid filled gauge and has to be calibrated. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that, but that's the best my memory can do right now. :unsure::)

In the picture above in a previous post, you can see where two bungs were welded on, one of those is for the vent and the other for the return line. The cap is not vented, so I had to provide it. A short line of about 6 inches will run to a small filter like below.

Filter_VPE-2166.jpg

You might find this helpful about the different filters and again there is an Excel spreadsheet.

Are you going to use AN fittings in your setup???

TB03_FilterSpecifications.JPG

Are you going to use AN fittings in your fuel system???
 

Attachments

  • Fuel Filter Specifications.xlsx
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@rbsWELDER , if it were me, <dons Nomex underwear for the flaming that is about to start>, I would avoid the Holley 'blue' pump and regulator, entirely. That is just based on all my years experience selling fuel pumps. Holley makes a wonderful carb, but their pumps (even mechanical pumps) leave a lot to be desired. I am sure there will be those who have run those pumps a gajillion miles without a single hiccup, but for everyone of those, there are a gross of pumps that didn't last a single race season. If I had to run a Holley pump on a street car, there would certainly be a vane kit in the glove box.

If I already had a Holley pump plumbed into a project, I would switch to a bypass regulator. Yes, it involves some additional work to plumb in a return line, but the benefits are certainly worth the effort.

The point I was trying to make is you can run 4" line to a fuel pressure regulator, but that 4" line will only flow as much fuel as the regulator will allow. A standard Holley needle and seat assembly is a .110" orifice, so there is yet another restriction in the system. If memory serves, I think the standard Edelbrock needle and seat is on .0935", so it is smaller yet.

@fordsbyjay , the only real benefit to having the regulator close to the float bowls is to allow the regulator to be more responsive to pressure drops. I agree, on a street car, there is really no way to 'prettify' a pressure regulator. But, then again, on a street car, there is really no need to go so far over the top on fuel system design, either. I think there are a lot of times when components are used for the 'wow factor', rather than out of simple necessity.
 
I have a Holley Electric pump (Red) , and if I had to do it all over again, I'd buy an Edelbrock one - I've "heard" that they are much quieter and they are made in the US, which I don't believe the Holley is.
 
I'd use a pair of double pumper Holleys. You can buy "blower carbs" which are supposed to work better , and I'm sure they do , but they get pretty expensive. The Edelbrocks are fine for good street driving, and do have some advantages over Holleys. Performance wise, the Holleys win. But please get a good dyno shop to give it the once over, check air/fuel ratios and timing curve before you go driving it hard.
Since you have allready bought the Holley blue, I'd use it, just make sure you mount it on some rubber mounts and use good quality rubber hose in and out of the pump , so it doesn't transfer the vibration (eg: noise) on to the car, you will barely notice the noise.
 
I'd use a pair of double pumper Holleys. You can buy "blower carbs" which are supposed to work better , and I'm sure they do , but they get pretty expensive.
I don't know too much about blowers, but my buddy has a '63 Satellite with a blown 440 and two Demons, and he couldn't get it to run right for anything. He finally took it to an expert and it turned out the carbs were not for a blower (I don't know the differences). He installed blower carbs and now it runs like a beast! From what I understand, you have to have them set up for a blower or they won't work correctly.
 
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I don't know too much about blowers, but my buddy has a '63 Satellite with a blown 440 and two Demons, and he couldn't get it to run right for anything. He finally took it to an expert and it turned out the carbs were not for a blower (I don't know the differences). He installed blower carbs and now it runs like a beast! From what I understand, you have to have them set up for a blower or they won't work correctly.
Yes, blower carbs are balanced, and set up for blower systems. They tend to run poorly when normally aspirated and when reg. carbs are set up by a layman whom doesn't know blowers. You can make the reg. carbs work, but when you do, your converting them to blower carbs....
You start out with the installation of a anti-backfire valves, the gaskets, then, making it so both carbs are completely the same in every way. Jets, squirters, pumps diaphragms and cams, etc....
I mount mine up on the flow bench, and equalize everything....
Ah, yes, 1 good backfire thru the intake, unless your running a pop-off, be prepared to regasket everything....If you have a burst plate, you will know why they call it that.
 
Since you have allready bought the Holley blue, I'd use it.

Golly - I have not purchased any components yet. I posted the concept to get feedback prior to purchasing anything, so I would not make a mistake & waste my hard earned $$$$.

Mark
 
Hey IndyCars, hows that motor Runnin?
 
Anything but Holley? ;)

We used Mallory stuff on the race car and it was first cabin. Aeromotive makes some really nice stuff, as well.
I don't know too much about blowers, but my buddy has a '63 Satellite with a blown 440 and two Demons, and he couldn't get it to run right for anything. He finally took it to an expert and it turned out the carbs were not for a blower (I don't know the differences). He installed blower carbs and now it runs like a beast! From what I understand, you have to have them set up for a blower or they won't work correctly.
In order to get a Holley carb to work well on a blower motor, the power valves need to be boost-referenced. A standard Holley gets its vacuum signal for the power valve through a port in the base plate. Mount that carb atop a blower and the power valve is fooled into staying open, because the blower is always signaling the power valve. So the base plate, the main body and the metering blocks have to be modified, to grab the signal from below the blower.
 
Hey IndyCars, hows that motor Runnin?

See new post titled "Hey IndyCars, hows that motor Runnin?" in Engines and Drivelines". Didn't want dilute this post with my ramblings.
 
I got a chance to pull the Mallory 4307M out of it's box and try to measure the orifice diameter. I don't know how Mike is measuring, but using a 5/16" drill bit to compare with the effective area showing of the steel ball in the bypass port.

TB01_MalloryPR_Orffice_5153.jpg

Below is a view into the outlet port. Nothing to measure there.

TB01_MalloryOutletPort_5150.jpg

Below is everything that came in the box. Looks like it might be made in the USA looking at the instructions. I couldn't find anything on the regulator its self that indicated place of manufacture.

TB01_MalloryPressureRegulator4307M_5143.jpg
 
I see that indycar is planning to use a WOG ball valve , as I understand it WOG stands for water -oil-gas , as in Natural gas , so does anyone know if the seals in such a valve are alright to use w/ the kind of gas we use , especially the gasahol that we're stuck w/now ???
dave
 
I have a Holley Electric pump (Red) , and if I had to do it all over again, I'd buy an Edelbrock one - I've "heard" that they are much quieter and they are made in the US, which I don't believe the Holley is.

I put an Edelbrock unit on my 56 for that very reason and what a load of BS that is. They are darn near as loud as a holley pump. I used a rubber bushing to help but quiet they are not. My T was built with a blue pump and my car is so loud you can't hear it when it's running so in this application I'm not sure if it is really that relative.
 
I put an Edelbrock unit on my 56 for that very reason and what a load of BS that is. They are darn near as loud as a holley pump. I used a rubber bushing to help but quiet they are not. My T was built with a blue pump and my car is so loud you can't hear it when it's running so in this application I'm not sure if it is really that relative.

Good to know! Truth is I started off with a mechanical pump and only switched the electric because I was having fuel delivery and pressure problems. I've since solved the problem (it was not the pump, but a blockage) and really HATE :mad: the sound of the electric pump. I'm probably going to switch back to the mechanical pump eventually.
 
On the car in my avatar. Here is what I ran and it ran great. From the Edelbrock site.

From Edelbrock Manual- Blown Engines
Two model #1405 carburetors should be used on engines with positive displacement superchargers, such as GMC 6-71 blowers or equivalent. The following calibration changes make an excellent starting point: Primary Jets -.101" (#1429); Secondary Jets - .101" (#1429); Metering Rods - .070" x .042" (#1450); Step-up Piston Springs - 5" (orange, stock); Needle & Seat
assemblies - .110" (#1466). This calibration has been tested on engines ranging in size from 350 c.i.d. Chevys to 440 c.i.d. Chryslers with good results.
* = Carburetor is certified to meet U.S. Coast Guard Requirements
CARBURETOR SPECIFICATIONS - ALL MODELS
Carb

I bought 2 new carbs, and took them all apart and changed all the parts per those directions. Put them on a new blower motor, it fired right up, made a few minor external adjustments and that was it. It was not a race car but a PDQ street T.

One other thing I took all of the choke stuff completely out of both carbs. Both carbs were hook together so they both worked all the time.
 
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I did the exact same thing RPM did before I switched to EFI. The Edelbrock 1405's with the chokes removed and the Blower mods ran great.
 

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