Scratch Built Wishbones

[RexRod]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the rear axle bracket idea. I knew the housings where thin, but I didn't know they where that thin. It never occurred to me to just split the bracket. How simple is that!

And please know I completely respect your views. And if I start to sound authoritative about anything, you have permission to pull the rug out.

I was going to make a post about the project, so I'll just do it here.

One thing I'm trying to decide is the final working lengths for the front and rear wishbones. I define working length as the distance from the center of the axle, to the center of the chassis mounting point. This idea applies to both front and rear.

Now this dimension is ideally determined AFTER you have your body, engine, steering box, wheels, and...... Lay things out on the floor and see how things fit. But, I don't have anything yet, so I need to try and just guesstimate at all of this.

I'm always inspired by Ex Junks car. Anyway, a Photochop of something his son did caught my eye. I like the proportions of the concept, so I just used it to try and get an idea of lengths for my bars. I hope you don't mind Jim, but I stole this image and fiddled with it a bit. I'm not an artist by any means, but here is my rough modified version of what his son did:

I used the "Gimp" to add some fake white wishbones to the picture. I also placed a steering arm in the cowl. After seeing the look of Track-T's car, I really want cowl steering! I also want the two chassis end connecting points for the wishbones to fall just below the centerline of the steering arm. I'm thinking that would help keep the bump steer demon at bay. I always thought the long wishbone look was cool as well.

Assuming a 108" to 109" long wheelbase in the image, I calculate the front wishbone will have a working length of about 44" long, and the rear to be about 58" long.

What do you guys think? Gals? Do we have any female members yet?

Take care all,

David

 

[RexRod]

RexRod,

George,

You do see aluminum being used for roll bar arms and torsion bar arms though, especially on race cars. I've built and splined a bunch of them over the years.

David,

You are correct in the use of aluminum in torsion bar and anti roll bar arms. Most of the time they are short as in 6-18" long. When used as an anti roll bar they are a seperate function and are not actually supporting the chassis. They only resist body roll. When used as a torsion arm they usually are again a seperate component and are used only as a spring. When used in that application the left torsion bar and arm are usually seperate from the right arm. Once you tie them together they then become an anti roll bars.

If you were to build long radius rods out of aluminum and mount them as most tbuckees do then you have a very stiff axle resisting any bending forces from the aluminum arms as the car tries to take body roll.

Now about aluminum roll bars, well I know people do it. In the old days Doug Nash (Doug Nash 5 Speeds) built a Bronco drag dracer and put an all aluminum chassis and cage in it. NHRA quickly outlawed that program. I don't know of any racing organization that allows that but I'm sure folks do it anyway. Aluminum tube just has no impact resistance.

A good rule of thumb for aluminum versuis steel:
Aluminum is 1/3 as stiff as teel.
Aluminum is 1/3 the weight of steel.
It takes 3 times the amount of aluminum to do the same work as steel.
This doesn't mean aluminum is bad, it just means you have to use it with in it's design limits.

I hope this anwsers anyones questions about the two materials.
Now, about you're "home" shop. Sounds to me you can do about anything you want. I assume those blue aluminum parts are a upper strut mounting assembly and it is fully adjustable. You must be either a road or drag racer. Nice looking. And you do in house anodizing. Wow! Nice work David. Keep it up.

George

Hi George,

Thanks for all your input! I can't believe people used aluminum for roll cages. Yikes! If I saw one and had any power, I'd outlaw them to.

And yes, the CC Plates are for the top of a McPhearson type strut system. The cars that run them are typically little SCCA road racers. My design is adaptable to several makes and models. But I don't want to do that anymore.

(To the sound of tooter the turtle) Help me Mr. Wizard! I don't want to make and design parts for the road racer guys anymore! I want to work with Street Rods!

David

 

[Youngster]

i come up with 109" wheel base. front bones at 45" with the spring over the axle and rear bones at 44". the long bones look good but you want the frame mounts to be close to the location of the rear u-joint. the long bars will also give you clearance problems with the body being that low.

one of the next things i'm gonna be settin up on my '27 is the cowl steering. haven't got all the bugs out of it yet, but we're close. i'll be using a '51 ford F-1 box with an extended arm.

Ron

 

[RexRod]

i come up with 109" wheel base. front bones at 45" with the spring over the axle and rear bones at 44". the long bones look good but you want the frame mounts to be close to the location of the rear u-joint. the long bars will also give you clearance problems with the body being that low.

D'oh! I forgot about the whole rear u-joint issue. Hmmm. Your right about the clearance problem. I guess what I'm trying to do would work better for a highboy kind of thing, which is not very low. I guess tucking the rear bars under the body would be better. :sad:

one of the next things i'm gonna be settin up on my '27 is the cowl steering. haven't got all the bugs out of it yet, but we're close. i'll be using a '51 ford F-1 box with an extended arm.

Take Pictures!!!!! Take Pictures!!!!! It's the LAW ya know!!!!! I really want to see that.

David

 

[c cab]

this is a shot of the rear end of my bucket this was built inthe 70s & still going strong

 

[RexRod]

A short update:

Saw the Doc today and he says my thumb is healing great! I already knew that, but it's nice to hear it from the man who knows best. He wants to leave the stitches in for a minimum of 14 days though. I asked if I could start soaking it in cutting fluids and he says no, no, no! He actually looked at me like I was nuts. :rofl: I'm actually super lucky to have him as a Doctor. He's one of the nicest and funniest guys you'll ever meet. His jokes are so dirty, even I blushed in front of his female medical techs.

He volunteers as a search and rescue for some blah blah of the Rocky Mountains blah blah (I can't remember now what the org is called). Anyway, he says he just finished teaching a class for new recruits called 101 things you can do with Duct Tape. I'm not kidding. Apparently, superglue, something called "Steri Strips" and Duck Tape are the main tools of the trade out in the wild. I can't really tell if this guy is serious, but something feels like he is.

Maybe this weekend I can start machining again! I'm eager to start whittling out my front and rear brackets.

I did do some more scrounging through my junk pile and found a 3' long piece of 1" by 6" 1018 cold rolled I could use for my rear brackets. Not quit thick enough, but I have a plan to make it work. Combine that with the 2" by 4" piece of 1018 cold rolled I found earlier for the front brackets, I'm ready to start machining.

So far the front and rear brackets for my wishbones are costing me NOTHING! Well, some electricity I guess. :lol:

Take care,

David

 

[RexRod]

Okee Dokee,

My thumb is 85%, so I'm ready to get back on this thing. I've spent the better part of this afternoon trying to finalize my design for the end brackets before I start to machine these parts. There is one small detail I wish I had more info on though for my front brackets.

Does anyone know what the outer diameter of the front clevis eyelets are on a Model A wishbone? I'm assuming it's less than the outer diameter of the axle spring perch boss. My guess is coming from photos, and it seems like it's not much less than the width of the top of the axle. Ron (youngster) gave me the width of the top of the IBeam at 1 3/4".

I originally planed on my eyelet diameter to be 1 1/2", but I've been seeing batwing eyelets at 1 3/8" in diameter. My feeling is that my design might need to be more than 1 1/2", maybe 1 5/8", something close to the width of the top of the axle.

At this point it's probably not that important. I do have a tendency to over analyze stuff.

I'll start with 1 5/8" in diameter for the eyelets. I can always cut them down if they look too big and "Moosey" as GAB would say. :welcome:

Making things too thick is better than too thin. Like my friend always says, "I cut it off three times and it's still too short!"

I'll start machining tomorrow and take some pictures.

David

 

[Youngster]

david....the outside diameter of the eyelet is 1 1/2" on the model a cleveis'. it is 7/16" thick. i believe this holds true up to '36. in '37 they went to 9/16" thick. to get a more stock appearance you could go with the 1 5/8 diameter and do a little shaping with a dynafile. something like a 7/8 radius.

Ron

 

[RexRod]

david....the outside diameter of the eyelet is 1 1/2" on the model a cleveis'. it is 7/16" thick. i believe this holds true up to '36. in '37 they went to 9/16" thick. to get a more stock appearance you could go with the 1 5/8 diameter and do a little shaping with a dynafile. something like a 7/8 radius.

Ron

Thanks again Ron! I guessed pretty close! My original calculations based on just photo's was 1 1/2" in diameter (it was actually 1.47", but I rounded up). I'm getting pretty good at this guessing game.

I like your idea of shaping it a bit and making them 1 5/8". The real ones are forgings and the sides have drafts and the eyelets are even curved a bit on their edges. Well, that's what it looks like from the images I have.

I affirm NO INJURIES ON THIS PROJECT! Take care,

David

 

[Ted Brown]

David, Do you make your own 3 phaze power also? as I believe you do need that for a mill like that, right?? Let the machine do all the work, what a way to make a livin, make that machine pay for itself.. and You.. love it.. By the way, you could make those rearend brackets mount with 4 bar type bushings pretty easy, that would take most all the strain off the housing when the car leans... Just a thought, that is what I would do...

 

[RexRod]

David, Do you make your own 3 phaze power also? as I believe you do need that for a mill like that, right??

Yep, I designed and built my own rotary phase converter. It even has a "Third World" touch to it when I mounted a spring return lawn mower pull rope to start it!

Let the machine do all the work, what a way to make a livin, make that machine pay for itself.. and You.. love it..

Well, I'm a handle cranker by preference. The little CNC here I'm still learning how to use. It's really cool though. Depending on the shape you're after, it can be a huge time saver. I uses a propriatery conversational programing language that is super easy to use. If you are already a machinist and you know the trade vocabulary, it's a piece of cake.

By the way, you could make those rearend brackets mount with 4 bar type bushings pretty easy, that would take most all the strain off the housing when the car leans... Just a thought, that is what I would do...

That's actually not a bad idea. I'll have to think about that. Thanks Ted!

Take care,

David

 

[RexRod]

Update 3/26/09: A very long post.

I started making chips! I would have posted earlier, but a job walked in the door Monday morning, and well, I needed the money! A small group of club racers asked if I could come up with a solution to a problem, an here is what I came up with. I built five of them:

Don't judge my welds too much you welding experts out there. In the past, I've been 99.999 percent machinist and would average only about ten hours per year on the TIG. That of course is all changing with my hopefully new direction. So I'll get better. For me welding has never been a spectator sport. I loose it if I don't do it.

The part allows an adjustable panhard bar to not only adjust in length, but in a vertical axis as well. The club rules for this group require only a bolt on panhard bar. Drilling one hole is OK.

Now, lets get back on track. I am not sure how many images you want of my build process, so some of these will be a complete yawn to the more advanced fabricators in the group.

I started with my front brackets. I said earlier I found a rusty piece of 2" by 4" 1018 cold rolled steel to make these from. Here is an action shot of it in the saw:

Thank God I have the saw I do. Using a hack saw would have killed me!

Next I took a file to the edges and cleaned off the rust. I also laid my to-scale paper part on top for reference:

I pulled out a new, never used machine torch head I've owned for a while now. I figured a lot of time could be saved if I rough cut the shape out of plate steel. Now all I've got to do is build the machine torch or bracket cutter. The wish list gets longer....

I then put a pretty blue color on my blocks, and manage to spill it onto myself, the table, and the floor. I still love Dykem. Greatest layout fluid known to man:

For my first set of these, I chose to use the manual mill for the initial roughing. Here is an action shot with smoke!:

After many hours of hogging and ducking burning hot chips, I have two blanked out front brackets that actually resemble what I want! Amazing. Here is one next to the to-scale paper part:

And a top view so you can see where the eyelets of the front bracket will be cut from:

Well, what do ya know. If you hold your mouth right, (and keep your hands out of harms way!) things generally tend to work out:

What I need to do next for these front brackets is start to write some programs for the little CNC to bring dimensions in to size and to help make some of the nice shapes I want. That won't happen until this weekend.

While I was standing at the machine cranking handles, I started to think about the shape of the front arms. Originally I was thinking I would just make the front arms the same thickness from front to back looking down at them. I mentioned I didn't like the look of the arms that taper from 1" thick at the front to 1 1/4" at the back. Well, I said things could change at the beginning of this thread, and I've changed my mind. It's turning out from what Ron (youngster) and others are telling me that most of these Ford wishbones are 1 1/4" round at the small end. So I'm giving in and making mine like that too.

The main reason for my decision is the weld in bung. I want to have the option to use a 3/4-16 threaded rod end. With an arm that tapers down to a 1" diameter round bar, well, is just not big enough. So 1 1/4" diameter at the end it will be. The wall of the bar at the end is only .120", so a weld bung for a 3/4-16 thread will fit perfect into the end of the arm.

To make these arms, the radius I must form is not the same from one end to the other. So then I asked myself, how will I make a hammer form that tapers from a 3/8" radius to a 1/2" radius, continuously from one end to the other, in 42 or so inches? That's where my favorite lathe comes in. I am lucky enough to own a 14" swing by 54" Hendy. It's super old and very warn out, but it does some great work!

What I'm going to do is gradually turn down a piece of 1" bar stock, leaving it 1" diameter at one end, and turned to 3/4" at the other end. One very long and gradual continuous taper. Should be fun! Of course I'll show picks of how I do that to.

Take care all!

David

 

[Youngster]

this is really interesting to me David...keep posting your progress for me.

so you are making the tubes in two piece, right? too bad you don't have a pressbrake handy. you could make dies for it and stamp these things out by the hundreds.

don't worry about your wielding skills. if it don't fall apart ya did just fine ... lol three things make a great tig wielder ... practice, practice, practice!!!!

Ron

 

[RexRod]

this is really interesting to me David...keep posting your progress for me.

so you are making the tubes in two piece, right? too bad you don't have a pressbrake handy. you could make dies for it and stamp these things out by the hundreds.

don't worry about your wielding skills. if it don't fall apart ya did just fine ... lol three things make a great tig wielder ... practice, practice, practice!!!!

Ron

Thanks Ron!

I wish I did, but I don't have any sheet metal tools, with the exception of good hand cutting shears. If I do make more, you can bet I'll be in the market for a press, or I'll just build a single purpose one. A press big enough would be pretty expensive. I estimate about 65 to 70 tons to do it, so at least an 80 ton press. For a home shop, that's a big press.

I'm just glad I was finally able to get started on these. It feels good.

David

 

[Youngster]

if you can have the blanks sheared, a run at a small jobber might surprise you on the cost right now. lots of hungry people out there.

Ron

 

[RexRod]

Ron (youngster), or?

Do you know what the angle of the chamfer on the Ford spring perch bolt is? This is the angle I'm talking about:

In the photo I measure around 62 to 64 degrees, but it would be nice to get it exact. I was hoping it was something more standard like 82 or 90 degrees, but this is something special.

Thanks in advance for your time.

David

 

[Youngster]

best to have parts in hand. order these from speedway. you'll need them later any way.

Item #:
91033050
Price:
PR
$4.99

Item Details:
This is a tapered OEM nut.

Ron

 

[RexRod]

best to have parts in hand. order these from speedway. you'll need them later any way.

Item #:
91033050
Price:
PR
$4.99

Item Details:
This is a tapered OEM nut.

Ron

Oh Man, I didn't see those. I looked at speedway earlier to see what the perch bolts cost, but I missed those. Thanks Ron! I'll order a set today. When they get in, then I'll have my angle.

David

 

[RexRod]

Sorry I haven't had an update on this project! I've managed to get some work, so I've been busy. I will get back to this soon! I promise!!

David

 

[Brucer]

about the split wishbones from scratch..

could you make them from solid bar stock? and then drill alot of lightning holes?

how about making the wishbones look like I beams, to match a front I-beam axle.. i think that would look good.. definetly be different and clean.. if you decided to do that, get your material stress relieved before you start cutting..

basicly use a piece of 1x3inch rectangle bar stock and mill an angle down the long side , then cut the pockets.. would take forever to machine, probably would warp on you from removing so much material, definetly doable and material would be somewhat cheap, just have alot of machine time in them.. as for the ends, mill a pocket for your bracket to insert into, then weld it in, then you could setup the end the hiem joint will go in, hang it off the side of the mill on an angle plate and drill and tap it..

you could even get creative and put slots in them.. i think milling them out like I-beams, and putting lightning holes in , for the volume of metal removed they would probably be about the same weight as tubular ones, maybe lighter and be stronger..