Ron Pope Motorsports                California Custom Roadsters               

Which carb to use

KPoole9008

New Member
I have a GM Performance 350/290 hp crate engine. The spec sheet says it was tested with a 670 cfm carb. I have two carbs and am wondering which one I should try first. One is a Holley 600 with vacuum secondaries and the other is an Edelbrock 750 with mechanical secondaries.The car's weight is around 2300 lbs has a Turbo 400 and a 3:42 ratio rearend. Thanks
 
I have a GM Performance 350/290 hp crate engine. The spec sheet says it was tested with a 670 cfm carb. I have two carbs and am wondering which one I should try first. One is a Holley 600 with vacuum secondaries and the other is an Edelbrock 750 with mechanical secondaries.The car's weight is around 2300 lbs has a Turbo 400 and a 3:42 ratio rearend. Thanks
In my opinion stay away from the 750 thats way to much gas for that engine.Just my opinion.I dont think you can even dejet it to match that engine.Again just my opinion.
 
Agree with Rick go with the 600 nothing worse than flooding a new engine.
 
I agree install the 600 carb.

Just a note though changing the jets does not change the size of the carb. You can't take a 600, change the jets and make a 750 out of it, nor can you take a 750 change the jets and make a 600 out of it. Changing the jets just makes it richer or leaner.
 
I agree the 600 is the better choice. The problem with an over-sized carb is not "too much gas." The carb will only flow as much gas as the air flow demands. The problem is the venturis will be too large for the air flow that small motor will generate. There won't be enough air velocity through the venturis to allow the carb to properly meter fuel. Your motor will be doggy and unresponsive under normal driving conditions.
 
All thing considered, the 600 Holley is the better choice. However, do you happen to know he venturie size or the diameter of the primary plates of each of the two carbs? Remember that BOTH carbs have vacuum secondaries and that the engine sees the primary throttle bores 90% of the time. The smaller the primary bores, the more responsive and fuel efficient the engine. That's why they have secondary venturies, for when your engine wants more air & fuel. If fuel economy and responsiveness is your goal, try to find a 500 cfm Edelbrock or a 450 Holley. Just a thought.

John
 
Actually, the Edels are spread bore (primaries smaller than the secondaries).

600 is the one for that engine, the 670 cfm avenger would work fine too but you have the 600 so why go buy another. For reference, I plan on using a 570 avenger on my 283 engine. As Lee said, the throttle response will be better and I might say mechanical secondaries on a 750 and a tame normally aspirized small block with an auto trans is all wrong.
 
Not much use in me chiming in as I feel the same as everyone else.

Jim
 
Actually, the Edels are spread bore (primaries smaller than the secondaries).

Ebrock makes both style. The 750 is square bore IF its a 1407. They say the part number on the base.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-1407/

And they are not truly mechanical secondady carbs even through the sec butteryflys snap open when you floor it. They use an air door on the top of the carb that has weights to hold it closed. That limits the air flow to keep the engine from bogging like a vac secondary carb. When the engine builds RPM the air flow overcomes the weight and lets air move down the seconarys. .


Any ways,
I also vote the 600.. I'e rather be a hair undercarbed then overcarbed anyday.
 
All I have on mine is the Edelbrock 600, its the same 290hp. and it does just fine. You wont need no more than that.
 
If (and that's the biggest word in the entire sentence) you could achieve 80% volumetric efficiency (good luck on that one), at 6,500 RPM (and with that camshaft, it will be windmilling at that RPM anyway), a 350 CID engine will only flow 527 CFM, so your 600 carb is plenty enough for what you're doing.

I'm betting you're rarely ever going to screw the motor to the north side of 5,500 RPM and that pulls your flow numbers all the way down to 446 CFM.

Don't guess at things when you can use simple mathematics to come up with a definite answer.

Everyone needs to step back and take a second look at what Lee had to say in his first post -

The problem with an over-sized carb is not "too much gas." The carb will only flow as much gas as the air flow demands. The problem is the venturis will be too large for the air flow that small motor will generate. There won't be enough air velocity through the venturis to allow the carb to properly meter fuel. Your motor will be doggy and unresponsive under normal driving conditions.
Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

The amount of fuel your engine will consume is dependent upon several factors, engine RPM being one of the more important numbers. But we need to remember that at a given RPM, air quality comes into play. An engine running in extremely dry air can carry more fuel than the same engine running in a rain forest. At wide open throttle, increased barometric pressure can help get more air moving into the engine and if that air is dry, it can carry more fuel.

At 1,500 RPM, a 350 CID engine can flow a tick more than 120 CFM. You can bolt a 450 CFM carb on, or you can bolt a 1300 CFM carb on, but at 1,500 RPM, either combination will flow about 120 CFM. And that 120 CFM can only carry X amount of fuel, depending on atmospheric conditions.

It's what happens when you stand on it that makes all the difference in the world. A small vacuum secondary carb will snap a pair of small primary blades open, maintaining air flow through the primary boosters, until the air flow requirements get to a point where the secondaries begin to open. A huge, mechanical secondary carb will snap all four throttle blades open, the vacuum signal at the base of the carb will get lost with four boosters trying to sort where the signal went and your head will hit the dash as the motor noses over.

People get confused between naturally-aspirated, gasoline-powered engines and forced induction, nitromethane-powered engines. With your street engine, you're trying to make maximum heat (remembering the cooling capacity limitations of the vehicle), which means using less fuel. With a Top Fuel combination, as long as you can continue to apply more load to the engine, you can continue adding more fuel. When the A/FD combination started regaining popularity in the Alcohol Dragster classes, they just kept running faster and faster, so NHRA decided it was time to slow them down, so the alcohol/blower cars could still be competitive. And NHRA, in their infinite wisdom, added weight to the A/FD cars. More weight meant those guys could load the motor harder, so they started running quicker. But they were stepping further out on the high wire, because trying to run more fuel through the motor means you also have to be more careful about keeping the motor loaded up. Watch a fuel car when it starts to spin the tire. What happens next? It starts putting cylinders out, because without the constant load, it cannot burn the enormous amounts of fuel.

Love 'em or hate 'em, you cannot ignore the HP potential of import cars. They're making incredible amounts of power with those wee motors. And burning tiny amounts of gasoline in the process.

And they're still inefficient, because they still require the use of a cooling system. Heat in the radiator is a waste of fuel energy and until automotive engineers get serious about understanding that fact, we're going to continue wasting fuel. Racers love cool, dry air, because it is capable of carrying more fuel. They take a cylinder charge of air/fuel and ignite it, driving the piston down in the cylinder, exerting leverage through the connecting rod to turn the crank. And then what do they do with that charge of heat they've worked so hard to create? They dump it into a header tube and kiss it good-bye. Think about it, that charge is still hot and still has energy to give up, so why waste it? Why not use that heat to produce steam and add a steam cycle to the engine? The steam will actually help cool the cylinder, which means you can start looking at the elimination of the cooling system. If you can eliminate the cooling system, that means you get rid of the water pump, freeing up more of the engine's power. You are suddenly burning half the fuel as before, which means you are also reducing emissions by half. If you can reduce emissions by that much, you can eliminate a lot of the emission control devices, allowing the engine to make even more power and the vehicle to be lighter. :wall: Why are the auto manufacturers missing the boat on this, whilst wasting time on limited-range electric cars?
 
I like reading the answers on here. A lot of people way smarter / more experienced than me.

PaulR
 
If (and that's the biggest word in the entire sentence) you could achieve 80% volumetric efficiency (good luck on that one), at 6,500 RPM (and with that camshaft, it will be windmilling at that RPM anyway), a 350 CID engine will only flow 527 CFM, so your 600 carb is plenty enough for what you're doing.

I'm betting you're rarely ever going to screw the motor to the north side of 5,500 RPM and that pulls your flow numbers all the way down to 446 CFM.

Don't guess at things when you can use simple mathematics to come up with a definite answer.

Everyone needs to step back and take a second look at what Lee had to say in his first post -


Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

The amount of fuel your engine will consume is dependent upon several factors, engine RPM being one of the more important numbers. But we need to remember that at a given RPM, air quality comes into play. An engine running in extremely dry air can carry more fuel than the same engine running in a rain forest. At wide open throttle, increased barometric pressure can help get more air moving into the engine and if that air is dry, it can carry more fuel.

At 1,500 RPM, a 350 CID engine can flow a tick more than 120 CFM. You can bolt a 450 CFM carb on, or you can bolt a 1300 CFM carb on, but at 1,500 RPM, either combination will flow about 120 CFM. And that 120 CFM can only carry X amount of fuel, depending on atmospheric conditions.

It's what happens when you stand on it that makes all the difference in the world. A small vacuum secondary carb will snap a pair of small primary blades open, maintaining air flow through the primary boosters, until the air flow requirements get to a point where the secondaries begin to open. A huge, mechanical secondary carb will snap all four throttle blades open, the vacuum signal at the base of the carb will get lost with four boosters trying to sort where the signal went and your head will hit the dash as the motor noses over.

People get confused between naturally-aspirated, gasoline-powered engines and forced induction, nitromethane-powered engines. With your street engine, you're trying to make maximum heat (remembering the cooling capacity limitations of the vehicle), which means using less fuel. With a Top Fuel combination, as long as you can continue to apply more load to the engine, you can continue adding more fuel. When the A/FD combination started regaining popularity in the Alcohol Dragster classes, they just kept running faster and faster, so NHRA decided it was time to slow them down, so the alcohol/blower cars could still be competitive. And NHRA, in their infinite wisdom, added weight to the A/FD cars. More weight meant those guys could load the motor harder, so they started running quicker. But they were stepping further out on the high wire, because trying to run more fuel through the motor means you also have to be more careful about keeping the motor loaded up. Watch a fuel car when it starts to spin the tire. What happens next? It starts putting cylinders out, because without the constant load, it cannot burn the enormous amounts of fuel.

Love 'em or hate 'em, you cannot ignore the HP potential of import cars. They're making incredible amounts of power with those wee motors. And burning tiny amounts of gasoline in the process.

And they're still inefficient, because they still require the use of a cooling system. Heat in the radiator is a waste of fuel energy and until automotive engineers get serious about understanding that fact, we're going to continue wasting fuel. Racers love cool, dry air, because it is capable of carrying more fuel. They take a cylinder charge of air/fuel and ignite it, driving the piston down in the cylinder, exerting leverage through the connecting rod to turn the crank. And then what do they do with that charge of heat they've worked so hard to create? They dump it into a header tube and kiss it good-bye. Think about it, that charge is still hot and still has energy to give up, so why waste it? Why not use that heat to produce steam and add a steam cycle to the engine? The steam will actually help cool the cylinder, which means you can start looking at the elimination of the cooling system. If you can eliminate the cooling system, that means you get rid of the water pump, freeing up more of the engine's power. You are suddenly burning half the fuel as before, which means you are also reducing emissions by half. If you can reduce emissions by that much, you can eliminate a lot of the emission control devices, allowing the engine to make even more power and the vehicle to be lighter. :wall: Why are the auto manufacturers missing the boat on this, whilst wasting time on limited-range electric cars?

This type of engine works best at a constant RPM and we don't drive that way most of the time. It also requires an H2O tank that needs refilling. Back in the early 90's I had the honor to meet and talk to the late great Smokey Yunick about his hot vapor engine. The exhaust heat was used to heat (vaporize) the incoming fuel. He had built a 2 cyl engine and ran it in a Fiero with amazing results. Here's some information about Smokey and his feats http://www.rexresearch.com/yunick/yunick.htm

Al
 
Al, every engine has a sweet spot, so we're already fighting the issue of varying RPM with a straight-gasoline engine. If it weren't for that issue, we could do away with high-loss drivetain pieces like torque converters and transmissions.

Yunick was an amazing piece of work, wasn't he? I always liked how he referred to his hot vapor fueled engine as his Stage 1 adiabatic engine. He knew there was more to be found there and more is the pity he was never able to get someone to fund additional research, so we could have seen what laid beyond that first stage of development.
 
This type of engine works best at a constant RPM and we don't drive that way most of the time. It also requires an H2O tank that needs refilling. Back in the early 90's I had the honor to meet and talk to the late great Smokey Yunick about his hot vapor engine. The exhaust heat was used to heat (vaporize) the incoming fuel. He had built a 2 cyl engine and ran it in a Fiero with amazing results. Here's some information about Smokey and his feats http://www.rexresear...nick/yunick.htm
Al

Good ole Smokey....miss the hell outta him, was in his shop on and off.....the lean burn Fiero.....couldn't hardly see anything, had heat wrap all over everything!
 
One of the engine builders ?? CRS... anyway, build/made a 4 cone (Tee Pee shaped) Bronze screen, with the mess so tight, that it would hold whatever gas you tried to pour through it... Installed between the manifold and the carb, that screen, now turned the gas into a vapor when entering the lower manifold... Needless to say, a gas Company bought it up, all rights and all, got it off the market before it got a hold of the right/wrong people, they do not want people getting tons of mileage, that would cost them many Millions every hour...
 
Ted, I recall playing with one of those, back in the Dark Ages. (And that really was a long time ago, late 70's or very early 80's.) The only result we ever found with it was detonation and lousy throttle response. I clearly remember pulling it off and tossing it in the rubbish.
 

     Ron Pope Motorsports                Advertise with Us!     
Back
Top