Steering Linkage

[Mr. Fixit]

I imagine that this has been asked before, but I couldnt find the topic. Anyway, enough about my problems. LOL I am wondering if everyone runs their steering linkage (wheel to wheel tie rod) behind the front axle? As I am stripping the chassis in order to get ready to do the final welding on the modifications that I have made which support the steel body, I am realizing that the tie rod hit both the left and right shackle when fully left or right. Who ever originally built the car had the tie rod behind the dropped axle. I am familiar with the Ackerman steering principal and wonder how most of you experienced builders set up your steering. Any advice or front end photos would be greatly appreciated

Thanks,

 

[EX JUNK]

I imagine that this has been asked before, but I couldnt find the topic. Anyway, enough about my problems. LOL I am wondering if everyone runs their steering linkage (wheel to wheel tie rod) behind the front axle? As I am stripping the chassis in order to get ready to do the final welding on the modifications that I have made which support the steel body, I am realizing that the tie rod hit both the left and right shackle when fully left or right. Who ever originally built the car had the tie rod behind the dropped axle. I am familiar with the Ackerman steering principal and wonder how most of you experienced builders set up your steering. Any advice or front end photos would be greatly appreciated

Thanks,

Do you have side steering or cross steering? Wheather you have cross steering or side steer, with a front mounted tie rod you will have to have reversed steering arms in order to maintain proper Ackerman.

Here are a couple of shots of my cross steer set up.

Jim

 

[putz]

In front you have to be very careful pulling up to things. Can bend tie rod sleeve real easy.JMO

 

[rb61069]

Some have learned the hard way that it is NOT a very good bumper!

 

[Ted Brown]

You should keep the tie rod behind the axle, but weld a new steering arm to the top of the spindle rather than to the bottom as is stock, they also make bolt on arms, but they take up too much room I think.. With the tie rod where it is supposed to be (behind) when driving the tow-in will move closer no tow, as it should be at driving speed... With the tie rod out front, the tie rod will not let the wheels go to the correct tow, but will usually make it greater, and that can cause the dreaded death wobble... So I would suggest keeping it to the backside where it belongs... Drive safe :good:

 

[EX JUNK]

Just for the record, I have NEVER experienced the dreaded "death wobble" with my tie rod in front of the axle. With the toe set properly along with proper caster and no loose or excessively worn parts you'll have no death wobble. IMHO

Jim

 

[Mr. Fixit]

I do understand the risk of having the rod out front relative to hiting things and of course the "death wobble" is even a more major concern. With the set up that I had (rod behind) I dont see a way to get the full turning radius laft or right without the rod contacting the shackle on the respective side of the turn. I would love to see any top view photos with the wheel turnel fully in either direction so that I can see how it can be made to work behind the axle. If not, I will need to put it out front.

Thanks for your help..

 

[Old Rotor Flap]

A couple of thoughts,

Ex junk shows us that he understands the need for proper Ackerman goemetry and has built he car accordingly, ergo the tie rod out fro,t
I suspect there are some number of rodders who may not understand the importance and merely swap their spindles side for side, place the tie rod out front, set some toe in and finish building.

There was also a comment here about welding the steering arm to the spindle. I would not weld on a spindle. I suppose it's been done, however I wouldn't do it..... unless I first tested it for Rockwell hardness and magnafluxed the spindle - no sense trying to ruin one that's already cracked. Then I'd have to know about the metallurgy which would be only a guide to preheating the spindle and not with the "blue tipped wrench" but in a heat treat oven to a controlled temperature. Then I'd need to know the prpoer filler rod to use and then I'd probably want to execute the weld with the hot spindle in an argon purge cabinet and then I'd want it back in the heat treat oven to stress relieve and cool properly and then re-heat treat the spindle to it's former Rockwell C hardness. Then I'd have the spindles X-Rayed ..... and then, I'd probalby sell the darn things on ebay with a lengthly disclaimer and buy a new set of Chassis Engineering Forged spindles and bolt on steering arms and put the tie rod behind the axle........... but that's just me and what do I know? My car isn't even done.

 

[eafree]

Steve, here are some pictures of my front end. I have a four inch drop spring behind axle. I'm running cross ateering with a vega box. Tie rod does not contact shackles in full turn. I did have to reverse shackles as you can see in the pictures. The steering box goes from stop to stop without contacting. If you need any further info or pictures let me know.

Eric

P.S. Please excuse the feet in the picture.

 

[Mr. Fixit]

A couple of thoughts,

Ex junk shows us that he understands the need for proper Ackerman goemetry and has built he car accordingly, ergo the tie rod out fro,t
I suspect there are some number of rodders who may not understand the importance and merely swap their spindles side for side, place the tie rod out front, set some toe in and finish building.

There was also a comment here about welding the steering arm to the spindle. I would not weld on a spindle. I suppose it's been done, however I wouldn't do it..... unless I first tested it for Rockwell hardness and magnafluxed the spindle - no sense trying to ruin one that's already cracked. Then I'd have to know about the metallurgy which would be only a guide to preheating the spindle and not with the "blue tipped wrench" but in a heat treat oven to a controlled temperature. Then I'd need to know the prpoer filler rod to use and then I'd probably want to execute the weld with the hot spindle in an argon purge cabinet and then I'd want it back in the heat treat oven to stress relieve and cool properly and then re-heat treat the spindle to it's former Rockwell C hardness. Then I'd have the spindles X-Rayed ..... and then, I'd probalby sell the darn things on ebay with a lengthly disclaimer and buy a new set of Chassis Engineering Forged spindles and bolt on steering arms and put the tie rod behind the axle........... but that's just me and what do I know? My car isn't even done.

Being a machinist (not profesionally) and a certified welder, I completely agree with your comments and would not attempt to weld on a such a critical component which would definately affect the heat treating that it underwent during manufacture.

I do have a bolt on steering arm on top, so the welding comment is not my concern. I did do a little searching on line since it has been a long time since I have studied the Ackerman Theory and i found the this write up on the NTBA http://www.nationaltbucketalliance.com/tech_info/chassis/ackerman/Ackerman.asp

I clearly shows that placing the tie rod in front of the axle is a viable option as I had thought and as Ex Junk has depicted in his photos.

It looks like this is the route that I need to explore.

Thanks all..

 

[Mr. Fixit]

Do you have side steering or cross steering? Wheather you have cross steering or side steer, with a front mounted tie rod you will have to have reversed steering arms in order to maintain proper Ackerman.

Here are a couple of shots of my cross steer set up.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for the post, I appreciate it and it looks like this will be the route for me. By the way, your garage floor is way too clean. You could have at least put some dirt or tools on the floor for the pictures. LOL

 

[Mr. Fixit]

Steve, here are some pictures of my front end. I have a four inch drop spring behind axle. I'm running cross ateering with a vega box. Tie rod does not contact shackles in full turn. I did have to reverse shackles as you can see in the pictures. The steering box goes from stop to stop without contacting. If you need any further info or pictures let me know.

Eric

P.S. Please excuse the feet in the picture.

Eric,

Thank you for taking the time to do this, I appreciate it. I continue to study my parts and I am still confused as to why the rod kisses the shackles in bot directions. It seems like the steering arms are too short for the tie rod to work behind the axle. I will post some photos for the group soon.

Regards..

 

[Mr. Fixit]

Here are various photos of the front end with the tie rod where it was originally behind the axle, as well as the brackets moved to the front for exploration purposes. As you can see (although no longer under the weight of the car) the tie rod kisses the shackle. When the car is on the ground and the suspension is under load, theshackles move down to the center line of the tie rod which prevents full left to right. Any further thoughts?

 

[Chief-T]

Here are various photos of the front end with the tie rod where it was originally behind the axle, as well as the brackets moved to the front for exploration purposes. As you can see (although no longer under the weight of the car) the tie rod kisses the shackle. When the car is on the ground and the suspension is under load, theshackles move down to the center line of the tie rod which prevents full left to right. Any further thoughts?

I had the same problem and solved it with an extended steering arm. Superbell makes them. P/N 1107XLC. They extend the tierod back 2 in. I got mine from The Hot Rod Company.

 

[Ted Brown]

Here are various photos of the front end with the tie rod where it was originally behind the axle, as well as the brackets moved to the front for exploration purposes. As you can see (although no longer under the weight of the car) the tie rod kisses the shackle. When the car is on the ground and the suspension is under load, theshackles move down to the center line of the tie rod which prevents full left to right. Any further thoughts?

Looks to me like you can extend your own steering arms very easily, plus you should have had the wheels and tires on for these pics, as the tires may hit the radius rods or drag link before the tie rod hits anything.. better check it that way for sure, first... PS, If welding on a spindle was not a good idea, then all mine and CCR's would have failed many years ago... I have put my own car through many things that no regular car would have survived, even front end crashes, with never even a crack to any steering arms or componets, many bent axles and tie rods and pitman arms, but never a steering arm welded to a spindle... If you can not weld, do not try on your steering or anywhere on your car for that matter.. like they say, yesterday I could not spell welder, today I are one

 

[rb61069]

The type of steering and spindles you have will determine which arms u can use? CCR sells the bolt on steering brackets for traditional steering so you don't have to weld. The steering arm and tie rod arm is made into one piece. This bracket puts your tie rod on top and behind your axle. Ron (RPM) might have this bracket.

 

[Mr. Fixit]

Looks to me like you can extend your own steering arms very easily, plus you should have had the wheels and tires on for these pics, as the tires may hit the radius rods or drag link before the tie rod hits anything.. better check it that way for sure, first... PS, If welding on a spindle was not a good idea, then all mine and CCR's would have failed many years ago... I have put my own car through many things that no regular car would have survived, even front end crashes, with never even a crack to any steering arms or componets, many bent axles and tie rods and pitman arms, but never a steering arm welded to a spindle... If you can not weld, do not try on your steering or anywhere on your car for that matter.. like they say, yesterday I could not spell welder, today I are one

Thanks for the input. I did have this as a completed driving car at one point prior to the body build project so the wheels and tires were on and the only thing that intersects are the shackles with the tie rod connecting the wheels. I am now thinking that I can put that tie rod below the brackets instead of on top of them.

As for welding, all I am saying (or agreeing with) is that I personally wouldn't weld on an already heat treated part since the weld heat will affect the hardness of the completed part and unless the part is then checked or treated again, it could be compromised.

Regards,

 

[RPM]

A couple of thoughts,

Ex junk shows us that he understands the need for proper Ackerman goemetry and has built he car accordingly, ergo the tie rod out fro,t
I suspect there are some number of rodders who may not understand the importance and merely swap their spindles side for side, place the tie rod out front, set some toe in and finish building.

There was also a comment here about welding the steering arm to the spindle. I would not weld on a spindle. I suppose it's been done, however I wouldn't do it..... unless I first tested it for Rockwell hardness and magnafluxed the spindle - no sense trying to ruin one that's already cracked. Then I'd have to know about the metallurgy which would be only a guide to preheating the spindle and not with the "blue tipped wrench" but in a heat treat oven to a controlled temperature. Then I'd need to know the prpoer filler rod to use and then I'd probably want to execute the weld with the hot spindle in an argon purge cabinet and then I'd want it back in the heat treat oven to stress relieve and cool properly and then re-heat treat the spindle to it's former Rockwell C hardness. Then I'd have the spindles X-Rayed ..... and then, I'd probalby sell the darn things on ebay with a lengthly disclaimer and buy a new set of Chassis Engineering Forged spindles and bolt on steering arms and put the tie rod behind the axle........... but that's just me and what do I know? My car isn't even done.

You know that part would fail. It was not shot peened and vibration stress relived.

It you just weld it in the back yard you would be fine. LOL

 

[Youngster]

Just my 2 cents here. As Ted said try your rims and tires before you deside to swap the arms side to side. You might fine the part of the arm where the tie rod bolts to the spindle will be too close to the tire.

My fix would be to fab some new arms with more drop to them alowing the tie rod to pass under the lower hair pin or 4-bar tube. You won't need alot of clearance here so make the dropped end just below the tube. You can bolt the tie rod to the bottom of the new arm if need be. You should still be well above the scrub line.

Now for welding on the spindles, these are Chevy type spindles. As such they are forged as are the Fords. You can safely weld to these spindles with out effecting the structure. I know this goes againest all the theoretical laws, but concider this, Ford said the axles from '29 to '48 should NOT be heated to straighten. How long have hot rodders been dropping these axles by heating and reshaping them? We also see axles and spindles chrome plated all the time. Has anyone heard of hyrogen embrittlement?

Ron

 

[Gerry]

Just my 2 cents here. As Ted said try your rims and tires before you deside to swap the arms side to side. You might fine the part of the arm where the tie rod bolts to the spindle will be too close to the tire.

My fix would be to fab some new arms with more drop to them alowing the tie rod to pass under the lower hair pin or 4-bar tube. You won't need alot of clearance here so make the dropped end just below the tube. You can bolt the tie rod to the bottom of the new arm if need be. You should still be well above the scrub line.

Now for welding on the spindles, these are Chevy type spindles. As such they are forged as are the Fords. You can safely weld to these spindles with out effecting the structure. I know this goes againest all the theoretical laws, but concider this, Ford said the axles from '29 to '48 should NOT be heated to straighten. How long have hot rodders been dropping these axles by heating and reshaping them? We also see axles and spindles chrome plated all the time. Has anyone heard of hyrogen embrittlement?

Ron

Hey Ron

Is it nitrogen embrittlement? Thats what I was always told. A couple of platers I have talked to recently say (its only thier word) that modern plating does NOT suffer from embrittlement. I always thought the part had to be oven treated to normalize and stress relieve it after plating. Anyone know the truth here
Gerry