Backward Axle Bolts?

[TriodeLuvr]

I need to remove the rear axles on my Ford 8" so I can replace leaking seals. I haven't done this job before, but all the videos on YouTube show people removing the bolts from the outside, through the access hole. Are the bolts in my car installed backwards?

Jack

 

[Golly]

Yes , they are reversed to what the Ford factory do , but can't see it would affect anything, other than make it harder to un-do the nuts.

 

[fluidfloyd]

Jack,

If you will notice, the blind or tabbed end is designed to lock up against the bearing receiver. That allows you to tighten up the nut using only one wrench or drive socket. It's been a while since I messed with one but I'm surprised a nut even cleared the receiver.

George

 

[TriodeLuvr]

OK, none of my sockets would fit over the nuts, but I managed to get them off with an open end wrench. Luckily, whoever put them in backwards also left them loose. One was missing the lockwasher, so it was even easier.

Now that the axle is out, I'm concerned it needs to be replaced. The seal and bearing have been previously replaced, and I'll bet it was the same guy who installed the bolts. Here are some photos of what I found...

First, note the spacer (is that the correct name for it?) next to the bearing. It was apparently used to hammer the bearing in place, and it's been damaged in two places by the hammer blows.

There are also several shallow gouges in the area of the axle that appears to be where the oil seal rides...

So, what does all this mean? Should I just put it back together with a new seal and bearing, or does the axle need to be repaired? If the latter, can it actually be fixed, or do I need to buy a new axle? Jeez, I can't wait to see the other side...

Jack

 

[fluidfloyd]

Jack,

Two schools of thought on your dilemma. Some would say just run it. I would say replace it. My reasoning is based of the fact that axles are under constant torsional loads and to some degree vehicle bending loads. The one thing that torsional loads don't like is stress risers and you have several. Every nick, dent or surface disruption is a stress riser and a place for a crack to form. Depending of tire size, final drive line torque and vehicle weight it might never fail. Then again it might. I trust it to do the worst every time. As to the retaining ring...I sure don't like that as they might have damaged the bearing as well. And you have no idea what the axle shaft section under the bearing looks like. As it would appear, they got the retainer stared crooked and beat it on. How do you think they "pressed" that bearing on? If it started crooked and they hammered it down going from side to side there is a good chance they sheared material from the axle journal. Most people don't believe it but even a small engine with an automatic transmission can make a ton of axle torque. So in my opinion you should replace the axles. I know you hate to hear that but I would hate to hear you lost a wheel and got hurt or worse. Hope this will help you in your decision. Take care and be safe.

George

 

[bobs66440]

That sucks. I hate hacks!

 

[Keeper]

I would grab a fine file, flatten those out, grab some fine emery cloth and smooth it out. The tiny amount of material removed won't hurt your seal.

 

[TriodeLuvr]

George, my primary concern looking at this axle was that the dings will cause the new seal to leak. Your point is well taken though, and I really dislike putting parts back in that aren't 100% right. I assume from your response that it's not feasible to weld this up and turn it back down. So, if I replace the axle(s), how can I determine what to buy? There's no ID tag on the differential, so all I know for sure is it's a Ford 8". This axle is approximately 25.75" long, but I don't know yet if the other is the same (I can't pull the passenger side with the car in the garage). What's the best course of action here to get the parts I need?

Jack

 

[TriodeLuvr]

I would grab a fine file, flatten those out, grab some fine emery cloth and smooth it out. The tiny amount of material removed won't hurt your seal.

If it doesn't leak or damage the seal, I might be OK with that. Incidentally, this bearing spins free, but it's noisy, sort of a rattling sound. I can't detect any movement in the fore-aft direction, but it does have some lateral slop (I can twist the outer race a little by hand). Should it be replaced just for good measure, even if I don't replace the axle? I don't think it was noisy when driving, but the exhaust note might be hiding it.

Jack

 

[fluidfloyd]

George, my primary concern looking at this axle was that the dings will cause the new seal to leak. Your point is well taken though, and I really dislike putting parts back in that aren't 100% right. I assume from your response that it's not feasible to weld this up and turn it back down. So, if I replace the axle(s), how can I determine what to buy? There's no ID tag on the differential, so all I know for sure is it's a Ford 8". This axle is approximately 25.75" long, but I don't know yet if the other is the same (I can't pull the passenger side with the car in the garage). What's the best course of action here to get the parts I need?

Jack

Jack,

You are correct about not welding on axles. OEM axles are 1045 carbon steel and induction hardened. This leaves a hard bearing surface and a ductile center that will let it take some flex from road impacts. Since I'm not home right now I don't have my tech books with me but I seem to remember the heat treat depth as being around .100" thick but I'm not sure. Welding it will destroy that hard surface and could very likely cause cracks. Don't ever tack weld those retainer rings as that to can cause a complete axle failure. I have seen people do that on drag racing axles and shear the flange and bearing off the shaft. Most every aftermarket axle manufacture that I know has a warning about that and will not warrant any axles that have been welded on. If money is an object you might consider following the advice above of polishing out any rough spots with a very fine file and fine grit sandpaper. Don't get carried away and take any original surface away. If you still have recessed areas or gouges then leave them and take you're chances. Get all your axle and housing dimensions and keep an eye out for a replacement when you can. If you plan on keeping the car you might consider after market replacement axles at a later date. Strange Engineering or Moser Engineering can help you out on that. I have always believed that ignorance of a problem will protect you but once you learn the facts you need to fix it or you will get bitten for sure. I'm sure Screaming Metal will be on here later as this is a subject he is well versed in also. Jack, I've been doing these 9" Ford housings, rear suspension and axles for about 40 years so I'm really anal about this stuff. You can get away with a lot of things with lite weight cars with medium sized tires and power. Then some days it doesn't matter as it's just going to bite you. I know this isn't what you really wanted to hear but like I said earlier, I don't want to hear ole Jack spit a wheel of his hot rod at speed. Think Safe. Drive Safe.

George

 

[fluidfloyd]

If it doesn't leak or damage the seal, I might be OK with that. Incidentally, this bearing spins free, but it's noisy, sort of a rattling sound. I can't detect any movement in the fore-aft direction, but it does have some lateral slop (I can twist the outer race a little by hand). Should it be replaced just for good measure, even if I don't replace the axle? I don't think it was noisy when driving, but the exhaust note might be hiding it.

Jack

Jack,

Just saw this as I finished my last reply. Sounds like that bearing is toast. I think you need to pull it and inspect the axle journal while you have the chance. Then you will have a clearer picture of what you're working with.

George

 

[railroad]

I thought you were going to be OK, until you said the bearing made some noise when turned. You should be able to put a sleeve on the seal part of the axle. The new bearing will come with the retaining collar. To remove the old, you can spot heat one area and hit it with a cold chisel. The blade of the chisel needs to be as wide or wider than the collar and parallel to the axle. You can do this without heat, but it will take a bigger hammer. Do not hit the collar without it being supported. Open the jaws on a vice and set the collar just deep enough to cradle it. The collar needs to grow when hit. If one mark does not turn it loose, you can do the same in another spot.
If you want dress down the gouges in the axle and use it, polish down your work with some crocus cloth. Using it like a shoe shine rag makes it easy. Good luck,

 

[2old2fast]

AFA the nicks , i'd try to polish them out [the 1 on the seal line looks awfully deep].... removing the bearing & collar used to be pretty cheap @ a machine shop [or anyone w/a press & bearing seperater] there "may " be a repair sleeve available ???... if all else fails , I've seen complete listings for 8" axle specs on the net... Oh , I'd hate to see what they hit that collar with to dent it that bad w/ 1 blow [or for that matter the size of the guy w/the hammer !!!!]
dave

 

[TriodeLuvr]

After weighing all the options, I think my first choice for this repair is a set of used axles from a salvage yard. Does anyone here know if a Hollander manual would tell me which cars/years are compatible, based on the shaft length and being 28 splines? Also, if the pinion is centered on the axle housing, does that necessarily mean the axle shafts are the same length?

Jack

 

[2old2fast]

Jack , hemmings.com has a list of all available 8" axle measurements & what to find them in ... some light duty 9" axles also use the same 28 spline axles , remember that these axle's [8"] have not been produced since 1980 so depending on the wrecking yard , good luck finding stuff that old... curry , strange, randy's & others probably have axles for your app. keep in mind that you'll probably want to put new bearings on used axles anyway..
dave

 

[TriodeLuvr]

Dave, I couldn't find dimensions for axle shafts at Hemmings. Sorry to ask, but could you point me in the right direction for this?

For anyone else here who might be knowledgeable regarding the narrower axles like those found in Mustang IIs, Pintos, Mavericks, etc., here's what I'm working with:

This is a Ford 8" non-removable differential made after 1967. The axle is 28 spline, 5 lug, 4-1/2" bolt pattern. Axle length is approximately 25.577 as close as I can measure, which would be between 25-9/16 and 25-37/64. I haven't located anything this short in a standard Mustang rear end, but it does look like a factory-cut axle.

One bit of really good news, I pulled the right axle tonight and it's in perfect condition. All it needs is a new seal. Yay!!

Jack

 

[TriodeLuvr]

OK, I think it might be a Maverick rear. I need to take a measurement on the housing tomorrow. Anyone know if the widths shown on charts like the one below are measured to the housing ends or the axle flanges?

http://www.carnut.com/specs/rear.html

Jack

 

[fluidfloyd]

OK, I think it might be a Maverick rear. I need to take a measurement on the housing tomorrow. Anyone know if the widths shown on charts like the one below are measured to the housing ends or the axle flanges?

http://www.carnut.com/specs/rear.html

Jack

Jack,

That chart you linked to shows all widths as overall drum surface to drum surface. In you're previous post you said: "This is a "Ford 8" non-removable differential made after 1967." Are you saying that the differential does not come out from the front of the housing as a unit? If it comes out the back then you don't have a 8" rear end and it would also probably be later then a '67. I'm thing they used drop out iron third member types till around '79. Trucks used them till the mid '80s.

George

 

[TriodeLuvr]

From what I've read, "non-removable" refers to housings that don't have a rear cover plate. The differential comes out from the front. That's what I meant. About the axle width, if I understand correctly, I would need to reinstall the axles and drums to make the measurement? The measurement is the total distance between the outer faces of the drums, where the wheels seat?

I also found a post on a Maverick forum where a member quotes the length of the axles as what I measured. He says:

71-73 5-lug 8" is 29-5/8" (R.H.) and 25-9/16" (L.H.)
74-77 5-lug 8" is 29-39/64" (R.H.) and 25-35/64" (L.H.)

These are probably homemade measurements though, so I want to confirm that the overall axle width also matches up before searching the salvage yards for a Maverick axle shaft.

Jack

 

[2old2fast]

Jack , from what I've been able to find , the identifying measurement is like ff said above , axle flange to axle flange , then you will have a good idea what to look for , also [& this is second hand knowledge] all pinion centered ford 8& 9" diffs..... the right axle is 4" longer than the left.... more fun facts
dave