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Carb advice

Bubblehead

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Okay, I am still learning the car that I have had for 7 months. Now that the weather has warmed up a bit I have had a chance to drive it a little more and I need some advice. The car has a SBC (350) in it with an Edelbrock tunnel ram (I was told it is the street friendly tunnel ram but can't find any markings on it to verify that) and 2 500 CFM Edelbrock carbs and I was told it has an "RV cam" (nothing too crazy). The carbs are set up with progressive linkage and the secondary carb does not come "into play" until about half throttle. The car starts, runs and cruises fine, but here's my problem- even after it is nice and warmed up if you jump on it from a dead stop it really falls on it's face. If you roll into it, no problem and it will get up and go. I just don't like the significant stutter it has if you jump on it. I have not messed with dual carbs before too much (if at all), but I used to be somewhat of a wrench turner before I spent 26 years in the Navy on submarines (that kind of bit into my hobbies a little). Now that I am retired from the Navy (still working) I wanted to get back into my car hobby. I know back when I was messing with cars a lot more I would think the above problem was too much carburetor. I have done some searches and found some smaller Holley carbs (390 CFM), but they are pretty expensive and I am not sure that will fix my stutter. I really like the looks of the tunnel ram and would like to keep dual carbs on top. I have rebuilt/re-jetted Holly carbs back in the late 70s and early 80s, but not much since then. The Edelbrock carbs do not appear to be as easy to re-jet as the Holleys are/were, but still "doable". I know you can't help me troubleshoot this issue on this site, but I just don't know where to start to get rid of that stumble. Any thoughts? -Glenn
 
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I have a 400 ci with a Wieand tunnel ram with 2 Holly 450 cfms. After I put the ram on with the carbs, it would fall on its face too. I put the 50cc accelator pumps on both carbs, have 1 to 1 linkage, and put the biggest pump cams on and adjusted them so any movement of the throttle gave me a shot of gas. Problem went away. When you open the throttle plates that quick and have no gas, it'll stumble.

Kim
 
I should turn this into an article for permanent reading...... 1st , I've beenrunning an edel. street tunnel for about 11 yrs-35K miles..... I've run both 390's & 450's [holley]w/progressive & 1:1 linkage.....bwhile either will run O.K. w/progressive , 1end of the engine is rich , the other lean, running 1:1 seems the best [& no, you won't use more fuel... not only is the mixture more even but the engine is way more responsive @ 1:1.... The 390's are positivley "piggy" compared to he 450's... don't waste the money...IMO....the hesitation/bog whatever you want to call it is just part of a TR ,under 2500 rpm , on the street , you learn to drive around it or go back to plain ole boring dual plane single four..... there's nothing I've found to completely cure it..... the upside is the wot performance is AWSOME !!!
dave
 
...(I was told it is the street friendly tunnel ram but can't find any markings on it to verify that) and 2 500 CFM Edelbrock carbs...
Street-friendly tunnel ram? :giggle: If you want more information on those, they are listed in the catalog, right next to population-friendly hydrogen bombs, and screen-bottomed boats.

1. The wee Edelbrock SBC tunnel ram has a recommended power band of 3,500 - 7,500 RPM. See that bottom number? 3,500? At what RPM does your engine idle? I'll wager it is well below 3,500 RPM. Any more questions on why it falls flat on its face, when you go WOT from idle?

2. Go read this post. Let's pretend, (yes, it is a helluva stretch, but let's make the numbers easy) you could actually achieve 100% volumetric efficiency with your 350. It is impossible, but just play along with me, here. An engine of that bore and stroke, at 6,000 RPM (and how much time does your 350 spend up that high), your 350 requires a 'whopping' <cough> 608 cubic feet of air flow, per minute. And you have 1,000 CFM of carburetor? Any more questions on why your engine falls flat on its face, when you go WOT from idle? Here, let me help you with some real world facts. You are going to be mighty good to get as much as 75% volumetric efficiency out of your engine. Suddenly, your engine has an air flow requirement of 456 CFM. Please keep in mind that you have over double that amount.

I just don't like the significant stutter it has if you jump on it.
Ditch the tunnel ram and twin carbs. See how easy that was? Depending on the cam profile you are using (RV tells us nothing), bolt on a 600 CFM carb on a dual plane intake, and the combination will tend more in the direction of ripping your head off, from idle. Nope, you're no longer going to look the part, but in my book, running the part is the important role.

I know back when I was messing with cars a lot more I would think the above problem was too much carburetor.
It's a funny thing about physics, the science never seems to change.

I have done some searches and found some smaller Holley carbs (390 CFM), but they are pretty expensive and I am not sure that will fix my stutter.
No, they won't. They might be a better Band-Aid on your problem, but the end game is that your intake manifold is not designed to work off-idle.

I really like the looks of the tunnel ram and would like to keep dual carbs on top.
In that case, live with the massive hole the motor falls into, when you stab it.

As rcnurd mentioned, you might be able to cover up some of the stumble with a lot more accelerator pump shot, in an effort to help wet the intake, but the bottom line is that the tunnel ram will never work as well as a dual-plane, or extremely short-runner single plane intake, on a street car.

I've explained this umpty-gajillion times before, but the secret to throttle response is tailoring runner lengths, plenum sizes, and RPM ranges to engine size.

When an intake valve opens, that particular piston is making its way to BDC, correct? That action creates a low pressure area, above the piston. If the intake valve opens really early, then that low pressure signal has not had much time to build in energy. Either way, when the valve opens, there is now a low pressure signal moving up through the runner of your intake. That signal is what allows a carburetor to work, because when the carb sees a pressure differential existing between the area above the carb and the area below the carb, that is when it allows air to flow. And that air flowing is what picks up atomized gasoline, and delivers it to that cylinder that is trying to fill.

Go get a balloon from a party store. Blow it up. Not all that hard to do, is it? Now, go get a hot air balloon, the kind people hang gondolas from, and fly about in. Now, using the same method as before, blow up the big balloon. Huh? What do you mean you cannot do it? What are you trying to tell me, your wee lungs cannot make as much difference on that larger volume balloon? Gee. Imagine that.

Put a straw in your mouth, then hold your hand up, 6" in front of the end of the straw. Blow, as hard as you can. Feel that air? Now, stand at the front door of your house, and have someone stand at the back door. Do it again, blow on that straw as hard as you can. Did your helper feel anything?

Now. After you've considered all that, let's go back and look at your intake. Do you reckon the reason your motor stumbles is because of those long manifold runners, and that comparatively huge plenum?

If you want throttle response, use small valves, in heads with small runners, use intakes with short runners and small runner cross-sections. Do everything you can to preserve that vacuum signal's strength, as it travels from the valve to the bottom of the carburetor boosters, because that vacuum signal is what is going to give you that snappy throttle response. Start increasing runner lengths, and the carb is going to lag behind the engine. Start increasing runner cross-sections and that vacuum signal is going to sputter out, and die on you. Smaller is better, every time. If you increase manifold plenum volume, runner volumes, or valve sizes, you need to be sure you are making the equal and opposite changes, to cover up the problems you are creating.

Remember when you were a child, and you were toying around with a garden hose? How did you make the water stream spray farther? How did you make the water stream have more energy? Didn't you cover part of the end of that hose with your thumb?

I just told Zandoz in another carb thread, this stuff is not rocket science. It is actually very simple and very straight forward. So why does everyone insist on making it harder than it really is? Stop trying to over-think things. Pre-school children know how to make a garden hose spray farther, but educated adults cannot understand that stupidly simple principle. :confused:

Occam's Razor. Or K.I.S.S., if you prefer.
 
465 Holleys, MSD6 ignition (or similar) a 3000 stall converter, and a good tune by someone who knows Holleys, and it'll be good! Mine was.
 
O.K. Dave , here ya go.
Check back about a year ago for a series of posts on this very subject. check out Colorado Hot Rods "Real Street Tunnel Ram". Go to the web site and take a good look at at the patent illustrations.
Lotta work and design went into this combo. Think some members here have invested in this set up.
Some times ya have to step up and pay the piper.

nuff said, John
 
You're right , there was 1 guy I talked to who bought 1 of those setups , his report was that as a street driver it worked well , however , at high rpm it was somewhat lackluster..... for the money he spent , he could have had an aftermarket efi unit that would have done everything well..... for me ,w/ a manual trans , I'd rather drive around the very minor drivability issues that some can't seem to accept for the all out , balls to the wall wot performance of my tr w/ 2 4bbl....
dave
 
Go to the web site and take a good look at at the patent illustrations.
Problem being, most people here will look at those illustrations and never see what is there. A couple of those illustrations tell the entire story, rather like a slap to the face, but people are not savvy enough to understand what their eyes are seeing.

Lotta work and design went into this combo.
Which is impressive, when you consider how tiny that market must be.

My former employer was always on some kind of Don Quixote-like quest to come up with the ideal spring for NHRA Pro Stock. I could never understand that line of thinking. What are there, maybe 50 - 60 Pro Stock cars in the entire country? And that number includes the wannabes and the has-beens, as well as the never-weres. And all of those people are legends in their own minds, so they expect you to A) give them free product, or B) pay them to run free product. The closest 1/8 mile track was usually hosting a couple hundred bracket warriors, every Saturday night. And those people all know they have to buy what they need. So why limit sales opportunities, by diving into tiny niches? (Much as I did by opening a T-Bucket forum site, aye? :x3: )
 
At the risk of beating a dead horse (which never seems to stop the flow of threads on this very topic, after all), take a look at Patent US 8733312. The highlighting of portions of text is my own.

Accordingly, in operation, each plenum will present only one carburetor venturi to the cylinder in a low-RPM, low-throttle opening induction event, thus keeping the peak velocity through the carburetor's venturi high even at low RPM.
Gee, where have we heard that before?

Many automotive enthusiasts build vehicles (cars or trucks) for street use but want them to have the appearance of a racing vehicle. These vehicles are often referred to as “street rods.” Given its distinctive appearance, many street rod enthusiasts would like to use the tunnel ram intake for its race car like appearance on their otherwise street tuned engine. However, the tunnel ram does not work well on most street tuned engines.

In order for a tunnel ram to work properly, the rest of the engine and drive train should be specified for use with a tunnel ram intake manifold. For example, for a tunnel ram to work well, the engine needs to be operated at a relatively high RPM, in the range of approximately 3500-7000 RPM. For operation on the street, particularly with unmodified automatic transmissions, low RPM performance below 3500 RPM is important. In street driving with OEM automatic transmission torque converter stall speeds, and gearing designed to keep RPM down for quiet operation and good fuel economy, the engine is nearly always operating below 3500 RPM. Tunnel ram engines typically do not produce good torque at low RPM. Thus, for street use in slow speed stop and go traffic a tunnel ram equipped engine has poor drivability characteristics. There is no solution currently available which makes a tunnel ram intake manifold suitable for low-RPM operation in a street application. In all cases, existing tunnel ram manifolds have unacceptable reductions in low-RPM torque production.

Also, where the engine is unmodified or only slightly modified, the engine will not be able to operate at the higher RPMs required for the tunnel ram to reach its maximum potential performance benefits. Many OEM camshafts are designed to produce good torque from idle to roughly 5000 RPM. As mentioned above the tunnel ram is designed to work up to 7000 RPM. Thus, with an OEM configured engine a large portion of the tunnel rams effective range is not used.

Click on that second quote, to expand it and make all the quoted text available.

If you look at the torque comparison numbers, the Street Ram is capable of making ~20 ft/lbs. more torque, at lower numbers. 20 ft/lbs. is the kind of stuff racers would sell their souls to the devil to get. In a street car, with no realistic expectation of ever actually sticking the tires, what is 20 ft/lbs.? I do think it is a slick crutch to help the tunnel ram guys get back what they've lost, but at what cost?
 
If you have a Weiand tunnel ram manifold, then a pair of cast tops and carbs will run approx. $1000.00, maybe less if you want to provide your own carbs or modify your own carbs.

John
 
Okay, now I feel more educated (and a little bad for bringing up what appears to be a sore subject). I had read the other post here and some other sites and learned some stuff, but I was by bringing it up in hopes of getting some more specific info for my situation. Mike- I know "RV cam" doesn't really tell anyone anything, but it's all I have even after talking with the two previous owners. The engine builder has passed away and the guy that had him build the engine was simply a driver and really didn't know anything about what he did. I have read the rules and was as specific as I could possibly be. I was just looking for some info and advice from the folks here, which I received. I always thoroughly enjoy it when folks remind me and others that ask questions they have "posted this information numerous times". I consider this site like a discussion over a beer- a friendly place where you can chat with others that may have some good info (and most do). Thanks and this will be my last post on this issue. -Glenn
 
Geez Glenn , you gotta grow a little thicker skin...as w/ any forum , some will beat you to death w/ facts , others w/ speculation , others w/ experience....don't get all hung up on what you "suppose" the other guy is thinking as it really doesn't matter..... I think we all have a way of communicating , some w/a little softer touch than others , but who cares, everyone tries to get thier point across .... like all public forums , everyone has an opinion , it's up to you to sift thru the B.S. & sift out the facts.... share your findings/experience ..... that way everyone has a chance to "pick up on" another possible "gem of wisdom".....
dave
 
Thanks Dave, will do. I actually have pretty thick skin after spending 26 years on submarines (trust me, you don't survive otherwise). Just don't appreciate the condescending attitude that some take when "talking" here and wonder if they act that way when they talk to folks in person. If I don't want to talk about something when I am talking to someone, I simply don't talk about it. I don't feel obligated to attempt to make them feel less than they are. Just my thoughts.
 
Early on in my working life , I had an older fellow installing a new furnace in an older home I was renovating for a young doctor ....... doctor's "snippy wife commented to her friends about the "dirty old guy" working on their house not knowing that he could hear her , as he came up out of the cellar , covered in soot & cobwebs , he winked at me , as he passed the young wife & her friends , he said softly " don't forget ladies , if it wasn't for people like us , people like you would have no place to live....I grin every time I think of that ....dave
 
Believe me, I do not mean to be condescending. At least not all of the time. If I had time to develop some peaches and cream way of saying that certain engine parts are piss-poor decisions, I would do just that.

The bottom line is pretty much contained in the Street Ram quotes. An engine with an 'RV' cam is never going to make any power above 4,500 - 5,000 RPM. Never. Yet some 'engine builder', who in my opinion couldn't tell his bum from a hole in the ground, saw fit to install an intake manifold with a power band in excess of 3,500 RPM. Glenn, what polite words can I use to say this engine builder was an idiot?

There are some things people need to understand, before they ever buy the first gasket for an engine build. What RPM range do you intend to operate the engine in? Where is that engine going to spend the majority of its time? This is not rocket science. A street rod engine is going to spend the majority of its time running from off-idle to up around 3,500 RPM. With those numbers in mind, it is now time to start gathering up components for the build. Do you want a camshaft with 316° of duration and .750 lift? Do you want a tunnel ram intake and a pair of carbs? Do you want 11.5:1 compression ratio? No, no, no, no, no, and no some more.

I get it, people want the 'Sound' and they want the 'Look'. They want their exposed engine to look the part. OK, then make it look the part, but don't bitch and belly-ache when the thing runs like a turd.

I worked 25+ years in a high performance shop. We sold speed parts, we built engines, we dyno'ed engines, and we sold a line of racing valve springs to dealers all over the world. At minimum of 3 times a week, people would call and tell me they had just bought an assembled engine from someone, who had us build an engine for them. They always knew the engine was balanced and blueprinted, with at least a 3/4 race cam and pop-up pistons. Yeah, people still say that kind of stupid stuff. I would ask for the original customer's name, after which I would go to our build files. And you know, 99 times out of 100, there would never be a file for a customer by that name.

For the members who have been here longer than 17 minutes, how many times have you heard me rant about checking things. Never trust anyone, always check everything. If you don't know what you have, how can you have any reasonable expectation of tuning it? Trust no one.

Glenn, until you know exactly what you have in that engine, you will do well to assume the engine is stock. I know this may come as a shock to you, but people, in general, especially people who are trying to sell something, well, they like to tell porkies. Don't ever fall into the trap of believing what someone says, always verify everything. If I have an engine for sale, that bitch is going to have a 4340 crank, titanium rods, ultra-lite pistons, a 55MM journal billet roller, roller cam bearings, and anything else I can trick you into believing. Trust me. C'mon, do you really expect me to believe you would walk onto a car dealer's lot and buy a new car without knowing anything about the car? I know you're not that foolish.

Here is a wee clue for people who never seem to understand. An engine with an automatic trans behind it has the camshaft, the intake manifold, and the torque converter inseparably connected. If those three pieces are not designed to compliment each other, within the anticipated power band where the engine is going to operate, then you are screwed, glued, and tattooed, before you ever get out of the box.

The bottom line to all of this comes down to the simple fact of that tunnel ram being all wrong for what you are trying to do with your engine. I don't give a rat's rectum how many people wade in here to tell you to use this carb, with that squirter, and this accelerator pump cam, and that ignition, with this much timing, because all of it is nothing more than Band-Aids and crutches. Your intake is not designed to work at low RPM. Full stop. But your camshaft likely is. Which means you will run the cam up out of its peak power band, before you ever manage to get that intake flowing air properly. For what you are trying to do, a 600 CFM carb would be more than adequate, yet you are trying to cram 1,000 CFM into a 450 CFM sack. That engine is N-E-V-E-R going to flow 1,000 CFM. If you were ever lucky enough to see 80% VE, spinning that engine up to 12,000 RPM would finally result in almost 1,000 CFM of air flow. And your engine has seen the north side of 6,000 RPM, how many times? Honestly, has it ever?

I am not trying to take swipes at you. Do I think you should have demanded documentation on the engine you purchased. Hell yes. Do I think you've been duped on that engine? Chances are. But then again, I spent a quarter-century dealing with people asking the very same questions you are asking, making the very same admissions you are making. And a handful of us have been dealing with members of this forum, asking the same questions you are asking, making the very same admissions you are making. Having benefit (if I can sell you on the fact it is a benefit) of being here from the get-go, I know some of these forum members, very well. There are people here with train loads of machine shop experience. There are people here with boat loads of engine assembly experience. There are people here who have more carburetor experience than you can imagine. There are people here who have blown up more stuff than you will ever buy, trying to find that last bit of horsepower. Mind how Mel Gibson and Rene Russo were comparing scars in Lethal Weapon 3? How many burn scars do you have from screaming hot headers in a dyno room, or at a race track? How many times have you scraped epoxy off your hands, after modifying an intake manifold? How many intake manifolds have you cut apart, modified, and welded back together? How many sets of headers have you welded up, trying to find the right combination? How many times have you rolled a cam forward or back, trying to find a sweet spot? How many oil pans have you built and/or modified, trying to find a couple more horsepower? How many times have you dodged pieces of connecting rod that were hastily exiting an engine? How many times have you set national records? There are several people here who have done all of those things. The collective engine experience on this forum would knock your socks off.

Now. Take a look around. How many of those people do you see that are even bothering to communicate with you? If you are wondering why, go back to the first page of this engine forum, and start reading. Then you will see how many times these same questions have been asked, by people who had no details on what they were working with.

It is nothing personal. It's just that we've all been here, done this, countless times before. And every time, it seems to end the same way. People like you ask what is wrong, people like me tell people like you that you have the wrong parts, then people like you get a boo-boo lip, because people like me didn't tell you what you were hoping to hear. Want me to lie, so you will feel better about yourself? I'm not going to do it.

You have far too much carb on your engine. For the cam profile you think you have, your intake is all wrong. And I typed all of those things with a friendly smile on my face. But the smile starts to disappear when I ask, shouldn't those things have been painfully obvious to you, long before now?

Properly building an engine requires a lot more than a toolbox full of tools. Mind, anyone can bolt and engine together, but that is not building, that is merely assembling.
 
Thanks Mike, understand all. Too much carburetor for the engine, that was my initial thought anyway. I don't feel as though I was taken at all in buying the car and/or the engine. It runs well and I was simply looking for some ideas to help with the stutter off the line. I went out earlier and changed the linkage hole on the primary carb accelerator pump to give it a little extra squirt off the line. I haven't started it since I did that, but we'll see what happens next time out. I am not going to race it or anything, so the stutter is not a make or break thing for me. I really like the looks of the tunnel ram for now and will deal with the stutter if I have to. When it comes time to build another engine I may actually go with a blower to get the "height" I like (I don't know why but I like a taller engine). I know...blowers are a whole separate beast and come with a whole new set of things to consider from the bottom end of the motor to the top. One of those things I can leave on the engine stand and work on for a couple of years. Every dragster I drew as a kid had the big bug catcher and a blower on it, would be fun to build that now that I am approaching my mid 50's. Thanks again Mike and others for the schooling. -Glenn
 
Yes, a blower motor is a different beast. But, if you start at Square One, with the realization that you are building a blower motor, and you remain honest with yourself throughout the entire building process, you can end up with a very satisfying experience.

I do apologize if I came off as being brusque, but it is difficult to convey emotions with the written word. Rest assured, if I had actually intended to be interpreted as being brusque, there would have been no doubt. ;)
 

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