Manual or electric choke

[tfeverfred]

Hey, guys, I'm planning my engine build up and playing with carb and manifolds. I want to go with a 600cfm Edelbrock and a Performer manifold. Nice and simple. Now, since the weather here in Houston is basicly warm to hot during the times I'll be driving her, can I use a manual choke carb or is the electric that much better? Would a manual allow me to just set it and forget it or would I be adjusting it everytime I got ready to cruise? I'd rather go with the manual choke to keep things nice and simple ( not a lot of wire running).

Any thoughts are appreciated!:lol:

 

[bullfrogg]

Hey guy, I used to work at holley and i would use the electric choke. There isn't alot of wiring just one wire to a key on hot. I would also use the Holley, they are a whole lot more adjustable, and they are superior over the edelbrock. i can also vouch for the Holley Tech. Dept. that is where I worked and they are a super bunch of guys who will go out of thier way to help you in any way they can.

 

[tfeverfred]

Hey guy, I used to work at holley and i would use the electric choke. There isn't alot of wiring just one wire to a key on hot. I would also use the Holley, they are a whole lot more adjustable, and they are superior over the edelbrock. i can also vouch for the Holley Tech. Dept. that is where I worked and they are a super bunch of guys who will go out of thier way to help you in any way they can.

Thanks, I'll keep them in mind. I'm still checking into things. So far the pros and cons for both are about the same. It seems the electric is easy to hook up, but so is the manual choke. The con for the electric seems to be if it ever fails. A pro for it is that it doesn't fail that often.:lol:

The manual pro is a given. If it's hooked up right, it works. The con would be if I ever forgot it was open or closed. Which isn't really that big of a problem. A major pro for the manual is that I'd get a cool old school knob to mount on my dash!

So, now it's down to if I want the old school look and function or electric reliability. I'm liking the old school theme right now, but that could change. As for going for the Edelbrock? I just like the way it looks and have good performance from them in the past.

Thanks again for the input and welcome to the web site!

 

[Nailbomb]

Its really not that much of a difference, i'de go with the manual, but i also like manual windows, vynil floors, and stick shifts...

 

[Mike]

The electric wire would be easier on the eye than a shielded choke cable. Also easier to route.

The manual cable will allow you the flexibility of adjusting the choke as you need it.

As for the carb itself, there are pro's and con's to both the Holley and the Edelbrock.

Edelbrock doesn't have any gaskets below the float line, so there's no chance of gasoline seeping out of the carb and onto your manifold. The newer gasket materials being used by Holley has really helped this problem, as well.

Edelbrock doesn't use the vacuum-controlled power valve that Holley uses, so there is zero chance of losing the power valve in a lean backfire situation (as in when the choke is not operating properly ) In Holley's defense, they finally caught onto the anti-backfire check-valve idea that we had been using for years, so backfire damage is not as big an issue as it once was.

The Holley is incredibly adjustable for each driver's requirements and you can locate the parts nearly anywhere.

I do the carb work at the shop where I work and while I like some of the features of the Edelbrock carb, I've been in and out of so many Holley's that I will probably end up using the Holley.

 

[tfeverfred]

Mike, you're right about Holley. They are an icon as far as carbs go. They started slipping and were behind in tech for a while, it seemed. Edelbrock came out with some new ways of doing it and kinda took the lead. But now they both seem so close, that it's really a personal choice.

I grew up with Holley, but I just happen to like the look of the Edelbrock. Heck, their prices are about the same too.

 

[Mike]

Performance-wise, I don't think there is spit's worth of difference between the two.

Look at all the NHRA Super Stock cars that have to run Rochester Quadra-Jets. Everyone always said they were junk, but when I see a car make a 10 second pass with one, I know better.

What I typically find is when people say a particular carb is junk, they just don't know how to go about making one work.

 

[Yogi]

Just to throw a out a different thought. I was thinking of going with a throttle body. It would alleviate the need for a choke and better performance.
I ran the Quadra Jets back in the 70's, for me it was a whole lot easier to tune vs. the Holly double pumpers.

 

[Nailbomb]

People say they were unreliable, i ran the original un-rebuilt quadrajet in my 1976cutlass, and the vacume secondaries quit on me in 05' if a set of fuel injectors would last 29 years i'de feel better about using them. i've already had the ones in my ranger replaced at 80k miles!

 

[bullfrogg]

Performance-wise, I don't think there is spit's worth of difference between the two.

Look at all the NHRA Super Stock cars that have to run Rochester Quadra-Jets. Everyone always said they were junk, but when I see a car make a 10 second pass with one, I know better.

What I typically find is when people say a particular carb is junk, they just don't know how to go about making one work.

They run that carb cause they have to. Take the same car and put on a tuned holley and then see how it runs.

 

[Mike]

Granted, they run the carb as per the rules. But let's examine your statement for just a second and see where that leads.

Let's pretend we have Brand R carburetor, capable of flowing 750 CFM of air, Brand E carburetor, capable of flowing 750 CFM of air and Brand H carburetor, capable of flowing 750 CFM of air.

Now if Brand H is "tuned", it will be able to adequately meter gasoline into the airstream to provide X horsepower at Wide Open Throttle.

But what if we also "tune" Brand R and Brand E, so they are both capable of adequately metering the same amount of gasoline into the airstream at WOT?

Airflow is the same and pounds of fuel per hour is the same, so how can one carb run any better than the other two? Answer? It can't. The motor has no clue what metering device is bolted to its intake manifold.

Assuming the world is perfect and the test mule is capable of stoichiometric combustion (yeah, I know, I'm dreaming in Technicolor), then all three carbs will provide the same level of power, based on the simple principle of the air-fuel ratio (air mass/fuel mass) being identical.

Now, if I wake up, stop dreaming and look at some real-world facts -

Can I bring Brand H to an optimal performance level easier than Brand E or Brand R? Absolutely, I've got boxes full of squirters, accelerator pump cams, jets, air bleeds, lightened accelerator pump check-valves and floats. I've tuned Holley combinations I am willing to wager you have never seen. How about one Dominator and one split, running on a V-6? How about a pair of carbs, with one blocked off throttle bore each, running on a V-6? (And you thought the three barrel was history, didn't you? ) How about a pair of 4150's, with one pointing to the left and one pointing to the right, with the passenger sides of the main bodies and base plates milled off so the carbs can sit cheek-by-jowl? We countersunk mounting bolt holes into what was left of the base plates, which required removing the float bowls to access those mounting screws. And talk about a linkage nightmare! I was modifying Holley base plates with a check-ball and a Phillips screwdriver, long before Bowling Green ever "developed" their now standard anti-backfire power valve protection.

So sure, as stated previously, I've been in and out of a lot of Holleys in the last 35 years and feel so comfortable with them that I am more likely to use a Holley that I am anything else.

But, the fact still remains if I am allowed the same inventory of parts for Brand R and Brand E, those carbs can be made to perform equally well. Which brings me back to my original statement, there are a lot of GM and Chrysler Super Stockers that are flying with those style carbs.

The fellow that cannot make Brand R or Brand E perform well is the fellow doesn't understand how they work.

Back in the day, before the advent of sheet-metal intakes and even before Larry at Brandywine experimented with the fiberglass intakes (yep, we tried one of them too), we would purchase the original Holley (pre-Weiand) tunnel rams and toss them up on a band saw and Z-cut them, so we could weld them back up to use on the 23 V-6's. I'm showing my age here, was that intake called the Pro-Ram?

 

[bullfrogg]

Granted, they run the carb as per the rules. But let's examine your statement for just a second and see where that leads.

Let's pretend we have Brand R carburetor, capable of flowing 750 CFM of air, Brand E carburetor, capable of flowing 750 CFM of air and Brand H carburetor, capable of flowing 750 CFM of air.

Now if Brand H is "tuned", it will be able to adequately meter gasoline into the airstream to provide X horsepower at Wide Open Throttle.

But what if we also "tune" Brand R and Brand E, so they are both capable of adequately metering the same amount of gasoline into the airstream at WOT?

Airflow is the same and pounds of fuel per hour is the same, so how can one carb run any better than the other two? Answer? It can't. The motor has no clue what metering device is bolted to its intake manifold.

Assuming the world is perfect and the test mule is capable of stoichiometric combustion (yeah, I know, I'm dreaming in Technicolor), then all three carbs will provide the same level of power, based on the simple principle of the air-fuel ratio (air mass/fuel mass) being identical.

Now, if I wake up, stop dreaming and look at some real-world facts -

Can I bring Brand H to an optimal performance level easier than Brand E or Brand R? Absolutely, I've got boxes full of squirters, accelerator pump cams, jets, air bleeds, lightened accelerator pump check-valves and floats. I've tuned Holley combinations I am willing to wager you have never seen. How about one Dominator and one split, running on a V-6? How about a pair of carbs, with one blocked off throttle bore each, running on a V-6? (And you thought the three barrel was history, didn't you? ) How about a pair of 4150's, with one pointing to the left and one pointing to the right, with the passenger sides of the main bodies and base plates milled off so the carbs can sit cheek-by-jowl? We countersunk mounting bolt holes into what was left of the base plates, which required removing the float bowls to access those mounting screws. And talk about a linkage nightmare! I was modifying Holley base plates with a check-ball and a Phillips screwdriver, long before Bowling Green ever "developed" their now standard anti-backfire power valve protection.

So sure, as stated previously, I've been in and out of a lot of Holleys in the last 35 years and feel so comfortable with them that I am more likely to use a Holley that I am anything else.

But, the fact still remains if I am allowed the same inventory of parts for Brand R and Brand E, those carbs can be made to perform equally well. Which brings me back to my original statement, there are a lot of GM and Chrysler Super Stockers that are flying with those style carbs.

The fellow that cannot make Brand R or Brand E perform well is the fellow doesn't understand how they work.

Back in the day, before the advent of sheet-metal intakes and even before Larry at Brandywine experimented with the fiberglass intakes (yep, we tried one of them too), we would purchase the original Holley (pre-Weiand) tunnel rams and toss them up on a band saw and Z-cut them, so we could weld them back up to use on the 23 V-6's. I'm showing my age here, was that intake called the Pro-Ram?

I understand that you are older and most likey wiser than I am but we got way off here. I understand all of them can perform when tuned right, but we have a guy here building a car to drive and you can easily get holley parts anywhere, and you can't always find a q-jet guy anywhere. Plus if brand R was so good, what happened to it? I watch the baddest pro stock cars in NHRA sunday night and I very seriously doubt any of them had a brand R or E installed on the car.........................

 

[Mike]

You miss my point. I'm not suggesting the Holley design is poor, by any stretch. If you look back through this thread, I've said that parts availability and my own familiarity with the Holley make it my own choice.

What I am saying is any carb can be made to perform well, if there are enough parts available for the task. I fully agree that it's a ton easier to modify a Holley than anything else, simply because of the parts availability, if nothing else.

But that still doesn't mean other carbs cannot perform just as well as the Holley, if we're comparing apples to apples.

Yes, indeed, the carbs on the Pro Stockers are of the Holley design (lotta King Demons in that mix these days, too. ). But this is where your earlier statement comes in. They run those carbs because they have to.

And if we take the rest of your statement and apply it here, let's take the same Pro Stock car and put on a digital multi-port fuel injection system and then see how it runs. Those cars would pick up a ton, just by eliminating those big-as-a-barn scoops they are pushing through the air. And can you imagine the ability to precisely tailor fuel supply at every single point on the race track? It would be a dream come true for the tuners.

As for the Rochester carb being gone, would it be gone if it without the development of fuel injection? And even when the GM fuel injection systems were in their infancy, the Quadra-Jet was selected to be the 'feed-back' carb. Remember, the Carter AFB was gone too. Until Vic Edelbrock decided it was time to resurrect the design.

If the powers that be at Glendora would ever get their heads out of that dark place and allow the P/S cars to use electronic fuel injection, it wouldn't take long for that technology to trickle down and then we would be remembering 4500 Holleys the same way we are remembering Quadra-Jets today. :lol:

So don't take me wrong - I'm wasn't suggesting the Holley is no good. All I said was a lot of GM and Chrysler Super Stockers are flying with Quadra-Jets and AFB's.

 

[ed maxwell]

I live in Dallas and I have a cold blooded big block chevy and tunnel ram . I have no choke at all and it runs fine. go with the manual in our BEAUTIFUL Texas weather

 

[Rick]

But ya have that UGLY cable to deal with

 

[Nailbomb]

Mike- wonderfuly put

and as far as Q-jets go "JET" makes stage 1, 2 and 3 carbs that can be found in any summit. I'm not saying they are the way to go, but for a street driven car they can be very effective. I remember wishing i could get my hands on one of the old toro Q-jets becaws the primaries and secondaries were at a even greater difference, allowing for better part throttle gas milage, while opening the secondaries was unleashing hell. They do have thier weaknesses though, as said mine gave out on the secondaries, A common problem due to a factory part being made out of plastic.

I was planning on going to a holly but you also must take into consideration not all engines are supported by all of the major manufacturers. I managed to get my hands on a street dominator for a 350 olds, they arn't made anymore, nor were they then.

With my buick i'm basicly bound to AFB style carbs, meaning vic will get the nod come carb time, it will be a change of pace for me with my expirience being vortech engines(spider injectors-ick), Q-jets, and OBD2(odd mix i know but this is what i've had to work with)

 

[Mike]

Probably the one Q-Jet issue that I've dealt with more than any other is the metering wells seeping fuel. When I have one of them apart (and it's been a while, now that I think of it), I just make it a practice to epoxy up all the welch plugs.