power master cylinders

[flatheadgary]

i was just noticing that people use those big power cylinders in their t's and i was just curious if anybody knows about the one from mico. it is about the size of a fruit jar mustang single type, but it is a power brake. it doesn't use vacuum either. i have one on my henry j and let me tell you, that thing will stop on a dime and give ya 9 cents change. boy howdy!! it was all the rage back in the '70's i think. it has a three bolt mounting surface and it feels just like a power brake. i have an article out of street rodder july 1974, done by frank oddo. i got mine from a place in bakersfield called chester avenue brakes, it is not cheap, but a vacuum type rebuilt will cost about the same. if i am not mistaken, it was about $300 bucks. man, i hate looking at old car books. that thing only cost $50 bucks back then!!! from what i understand, mico was the inventor of the power master cylinder, to hear them tell it way back in the 1910's or so.

 

[flatheadgary]

i am really surprised at the lack of replies to this thread. i would think with the lack of space in a t, a power brake the size of a small mustang would be a natural. well, either way, here is the article.

 

[Youngster]

Thanks for the tip Gary. I found the artical in my library. Never did like the look of a boost chamber in a T.

Ron

 

[Bill Pedersen]

Sounds like a good idea. It looks like the company changed their name since the article came out to Micro, Inc. North Mankato, Minnesota.
Here is a link to their catalog. http://www.mico.com/products/images/34_docfile.pdf

 

[flatheadgary]

hey bill, thanks for the site. there is a wealth of info on there about these mc.

 

[Youngster]

Thanks from here too Bill.

Ron

 

[Bill Pedersen]

I ran across another electric power master cylinder. Here is a picture. There is also a link to an article that Rod and Custom did back in Jan 2007. This one is kind of high priced.

The Best in Brakes & Steering...
http://www.abspowerbrake.com/ehp_rodncustom.html

 

[Ted Brown]

Who needs power brakes in a T ??? all you need to do if you can't skid your wheels with an easy press on the brake padal, is to use a smaller bore master, longer padal, or shorter leverage on the bottom half, or larger wheel cyls... wolla power brakes, for CHEAP! As long as you are able to lock up your wheels fairly easy, you are livin...

 

[fluidfloyd]

I'm with Ted Brown on this subject. Lite weight cars seldom need power brakes. I never had power anything on my '65 Ford truck, '53 Chevy, Ford econline van or any hot rods. Also just look at any pure drag race car. 2400 lb. Pro Stocks running at 200MPH with non power 4 wheel disk. Top Fuel cars at 300MPH+ on two rear disk brakes. Now I realize these cars do have help with a chute and they do have big rotors and calipers but they are manual. As Ted stated, you can change any number of variables to get enough cylinder force to do the job. As to the Micro cylinders: They were indeed quite popular at one time. My only real complaint is single cylinder design. You really need seperate systems front to rear. It was mandated in the '60s for OEM cars and you should do the same. Living here in the Ozark Mountains I have learned front tire and brake wear is greatly accelerated. Rotating tires is a must or you will be buying a lot of front replacements. Disk brakes are really a hugh plus due to the constant elevation changes and riding your brakes in the curves. I would not even consider front drums for this area. Hope this is of some help.

One other thing to Ted: Tell Obama to stimulus you to Arkansas! You'll like it.

George

 

[rooster57]

Ted you are to Sophisticated to live in arkansas.:lol:
You need to move to Tulsa we have shoes and all our teeth:rofl:
Well at least the ones you can see. We have a Indain Casinos on every other corner. And Marboro 100s are still considered a fasion accessory and our sisters dont live on the property. Sounds good dont it.

 

[fluidfloyd]

Ted you are to Sophisticated to live in arkansas.:rofl:
You need to move to Tulsa we have shoes and all our teeth:rofl:
Well at least the ones you can see. We have a Indain Casinos on every other corner. And Marboro 100s are still considered a fasion accessory and our sisters dont live on the property. Sounds good dont it.

Chickens, Dancin' Roosters...You sure you didn't use to live in Arkansas?

 

[rooster57]

You caught me!!!! I could not pass up a chance to give my neighbor a hard time. HA HA My wife and i come to Arkansas severaltimes a year. I have a bunch of customers there who i service their machine tools from time to time. If i were retired southern arkansas would be my choice to . Howbout you Ted and I have the only 3 houses on a long wooded road overlooking the west side of Tablerock lake.

 

[fluidfloyd]

You caught me!!!! I could not pass up a chance to give my neighbor a hard time.


Rooster, I am Hard Time or as one of Oklamoma's favorite sons would say, "I'm Tougher Then a Two Dollar Steak".

I saw on another posting that you sell/service Mazak or Morisiki machines. Please fill me in as to what all you do over there.

George

 

[Bill Pedersen]

Friday, 07 November 2008
NHRA, working with the safety task force formed a little more than three months ago, has continued to investigate, analyze, and determine ways to implement initiatives to enhance racing safety. Among the areas under review were parachutes and braking systems. Below is a brief update on the progress being made on these two initiatives.

Currently, leading manufacturers in the performance parts industry are working with teams to test a variety of new brake systems for Top Fuel dragsters and fuel Funny Cars. Jim Head is testing a power-assisted master cylinder on his Funny Car, and Larry Dixon is about to test a dual braking system utilizing two master cylinders on his Top Fuel dragster. In addition, a new, larger front brake is being developed. The new brake systems and larger front brake mechanism are currently being manufactured, and once enough product is available in the marketplace for all applicable race teams, the system will be mandated by NHRA.

 

[rooster57]

I am the service guy for Mori Seiki, Hitachi seiki, Fadal, Johnford, Milltronics i work for the Mori distributor. Maruka out of KC
I cover Okla, Arkansas, Mo, Ks, then i do special projects in Florida and Newyork and NJ. But most of my time is in this area. We have service guys in those areas i go there if they are in a pinch or vacation.

 

[fluidfloyd]

Bill,

You are correct in your information. Jim Head is really an class act. Always underfunded, he constantly comes up with new ideas at great cost out of his pocket. He is always trying to improve on safety and performance and he can run the numbers.
Over the years there have been a number of chassis builders that used dual calipers on the rear axle assemblies of both F/C and T/F. I put them on a F/C for the Moritz group out of Tulsa in 1984. Some even used dual master cylinders. Ten the lite weight mentality reduced all that back to single calipers/master cylinders. Today they all run the carbon brake systems. As to the power brake set up of Jim Head, I'm not sure how he is getting the power boost but I'll check around and see whats going on. After the Winternationals Circus last week it's a wonder anybody will have a place to race. Six days of rain and NHRA's atitude, lack of major sponsors and shoddy treatment of fans and sportsman racers will likely hurt them this year. I see where they had an emergency closed "tent" meeting at the track and cut everyones salary 10%. Guess they are starting to figure out there is an economic problem outside NHRA. Thanks for posting the info about Head.

George

 

[fluidfloyd]

Bill,

This is basically a follow up to the issue of "power" brakes and Jim Head. NHRA is basically in a panic mode as to speeds of Fuel Cars and short stopping distances. They are now putting dual rear calipers on each side. Funny cars are required to run front brakes. Jim Head felt the need to look at the front a-arm tripod frontend so he mounted a digital movie camera. Much to his belief it was flexing like crazy. Now they are going to require everyone to run both an upper and lower triangled design. The problem with NHRA is and always has been that they know zero about design or engineering but they are experts at making rules. I was right in the middle of the big blow up between chassis builders and NHRA that resulted in the builders telling NHRA to stick it. NHRA took over the certification process and at the very next race Shirley crashed her T/F dragster and wound up in the hospital for quite a while. Just a short time late at the Springnationals in Columbus, OH Doug Kuhulas (spelling) ran off the end of the track and was in a coma for a long time. NHRA asked the chassis builders to take back the certifcation and we all agreed to refuse the offer. NHRA then made it where anybody with a TIG welder could build anything as long as it looked about right and met the material requirements.

Now back to Head and power brakes. What he is actually doing is putting a brake petal in the car along with the original hand brake. He stages the car with the hand brake and uses the foot brake for stopping. This is something the Pro Stock cars have been doing for some years. Much better control in inching the car into the stagging beam with a hand brake. Much more petal force using a foot brake. As T/F-F/Cs are high gear only there really is no need to take your hands off the steering wheel except to hit the fuel shutoff. Hope that answers some questions. I will keep everyone posted is I hear anything else.

George

 

[Bill Pedersen]

Thanks for the updated info George. I drove a TAD for a number of years, but that was before the carbon/carbon brakes. Jim Head has never been afraid to try unique ideas.
What is the name of your shop?
Bill

 

[Ted Brown]

Ok. sounds good also, anything out of the rat race would be great! Love to move, but they say our home is not worth what it was a couple of years ago, so we are stuck here for the time being.
OH George, I do like Ark, as my two best friends live there... why oh why are you riding your brakes in the corners?? your supposed to be on the gas pedal, not the brake.. and I am afraid I will take a drum brake over a disk any time, as they will not fade as fast either.. believe it or not... and they are much bigger... leverage wise, and a larger diameter... hehe OH you got me thinking about your statement about duel masters, ft and rear, well I do believe it is kitty corner, the way that they work, right?? a friend of mine told me he was driving his late 60 or 70 something Pont. with a brake drum totally off the car, I said no way, he showed me that the drum was indeed off the rear passenger side... I said well kiss my %#@.. I was very surprised to say the least,, and the brakes were kitty corner, one front and one rear, as far as we could tell back then...crazy I thought.

 

[fluidfloyd]

Ted,

I understand the value of houses and California economics. I see that Governor Arnold is going to lay off everyone in government but himself today unless they pass that hugh tax bill. Sorry that you have to be caught up in that mess.

As to drum versus disk brakes. Yes, you are correct in drums having more stopping power. It is all based on surface area contact and a disk can't come close in this area. However, disk will handle heat, dirt and water way better then drums. They are not as wear prone as drums and require less maintenance. It really is a matter of personal choice and either will get the job done. Now if you move to Arkansas and travel any county (rock/gravel) roads you will soon wish you had 4 wheel disk (I'm talking truck, passenger car etc,). Drums get loaded up with dirt/gravel or clay and kill both shoes and drums rather quickly. The shop next door repairs drum brake equiped vehicles on a daily basis.

As to the cross corner application of brake calipers with dual master cylinders. I have heard that before but have never actually seen it. Most road racing cars use dual cylinders with a balancing rod assembly in order to bias the front or rear brakes according to track conditions and needs. Some of the sprint car guys might bias the front calipers in order to help then in the turns but that is just speculation. I'll see if I can find out more on this subject.

Hope you get to the Ozarks!

George